Notification about discontinuing of the game in the Netherlands/Belgium

[falcosenna1 18]

Tech Support gave me a more elaborate answer this time.

 

"Hello,

Before answering your questions we would like to draw your attention to the fact that: our project Tanki Online is still accessible from IPs other than Netherlands/Belgium meaning you are not losing your Account with all the Digital content that you have!

Moreover Belgium IP support will be available until the end of 2020 so you will have time to play for your own amusement.

Nevertheless as for the questions you have asked, we would like to refer you to the following articles of EULA  (available at https://tankionline.com/en/):

11.5. The Company shall be entitled to unilaterally terminate this EULA granted herein and to desist from offering the Game to the User at its sole discretion and without prior notice and without returning any payments to the User.
20.3 You hereby expressly consent that the supply of digital content begins immediately after we have sent You the confirmation email.
21.2 You lose Your right of withdrawal insofar as the contract comprises the supply of digital content which is not supplied on a tangible medium if the performance has begun with Your prior express consent and Your acknowledgment that You thereby lose Your right of withdrawal.

Thus there is no refund available for you in this situation.

19.5. The User acknowledges and accepts that the Game is not a game of chance, a game for money, a contest or a bet. The purchase of a Digital Content is the realization of its own will and desire and is not necessary for the use of the Game according to this Agreement.

Hence Tanki Online is not a gambling service and you have acknowledged that yourself.

Moreover termination of the Belgium IP support for our project is more of a preventive measure to combat the current unclear situation in Belgium regarding loot boxes and other in-game revenue models. We do not by any means stipulate that Tanki Online is a gambling service.

This letter is sent without prejudice to APL Publishing's rights, all of which are expressly reserved."

 

Towards a single player, the rules stand clear. Then again, they've been violating gambling rules of 2 countries for an excessive time, making TO a violator. I answered on this mail 4 days ago already, but they fail to respond so far. I've shortly resent my answer. Hope they'll quickly respond. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by falcosenna1

[Blutaar 1,904]

4 hours ago, falcosenna1 said:

Moreover termination of the Belgium IP support for our project is more of a preventive measure to combat the current unclear situation in Belgium regarding loot boxes and other in-game revenue models. We do not by any means stipulate that Tanki Online is a gambling service.

I find it disturbing that it's constantly repeated that the 'situation is unclear'. It gives me the interpretation that the developers are not trying to delve into it and find out what exactly is happening; I question if devs had considered alternative measures for this issue or that they have chosen for the simplest solution. About the fact that no official announcement has been made on the homepage about this - merely a pop-up when opening the game, which should not be used to convey crucial information - I get the impression that this situation is looked upon as 'a problem of little importance', being made public merely two weeks before the end of 2020. As I am standing, I have no clue what to do about this situation. 

It's unfortunate how this happened that quickly, and to an extent Tanki Online is not fully responsible for this occurence, yet I am disappointed how everything has been done so far

[SONIC-BOOM 326]

3 minutes ago, BloodPressure said:

I find it disturbing that it's constantly repeated that the 'situation is unclear'. It gives me the interpretation that the developers are not trying to delve into it and find out what exactly is happening; I question if devs had considered alternative measures for this issue or that they have chosen for the simplest solution. About the fact that no official announcement has been made on the homepage about this - merely a pop-up when opening the game, which should not be used to convey crucial information - I get the impression that this situation is looked upon as 'a problem of little importance', being made public merely two weeks before the end of 2020. As I am standing, I have no clue what to do about this situation. 

It's unfortunate how this happened that quickly, and to an extent Tanki Online is not fully responsible for this occurence, yet I am disappointed how everything has been done so far

Agree, it's probably been an ongoing concern for quite awhile, but only now when it's come to head are you (the players) been made aware of it.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

5 hours ago, falcosenna1 said:

Hence Tanki Online is not a gambling service and you have acknowledged that yourself.

What was your original message? Did you acknowledge in the letter that Container count as gambling because of RNG and requires real money to do it? And how it violated the Dutch/Belgian laws?

Edited December 20, 2020 by FrozenRailgun

[SONIC-BOOM 326]

4 hours ago, falcosenna1 said:

Tech Support gave me a more elaborate answer this time.

 

"Hello,

Before answering your questions we would like to draw your attention to the fact that: our project Tanki Online is still accessible from IPs other than Netherlands/Belgium meaning you are not losing your Account with all the Digital content that you have!

Moreover Belgium IP support will be available until the end of 2020 so you will have time to play for your own amusement.

Nevertheless as for the questions you have asked, we would like to refer you to the following articles of EULA  (available at https://tankionline.com/en/):

11.5. The Company shall be entitled to unilaterally terminate this EULA granted herein and to desist from offering the Game to the User at its sole discretion and without prior notice and without returning any payments to the User.
20.3 You hereby expressly consent that the supply of digital content begins immediately after we have sent You the confirmation email.
21.2 You lose Your right of withdrawal insofar as the contract comprises the supply of digital content which is not supplied on a tangible medium if the performance has begun with Your prior express consent and Your acknowledgment that You thereby lose Your right of withdrawal.

Thus there is no refund available for you in this situation.

19.5. The User acknowledges and accepts that the Game is not a game of chance, a game for money, a contest or a bet. The purchase of a Digital Content is the realization of its own will and desire and is not necessary for the use of the Game according to this Agreement.

Hence Tanki Online is not a gambling service and you have acknowledged that yourself.

Moreover termination of the Belgium IP support for our project is more of a preventive measure to combat the current unclear situation in Belgium regarding loot boxes and other in-game revenue models. We do not by any means stipulate that Tanki Online is a gambling service.

This letter is sent without prejudice to APL Publishing's rights, all of which are expressly reserved."

 

Towards a single player, the rules stand clear. Then again, they've been violating gambling rules of 2 countries for an excessive time, making TO a violator. I answered on this mail 4 days ago already, but they fail to respond so far. I've shortly resent my answer. Hope they'll quickly respond. 

They tie your hands with their eula, if you don't agree to their terms that they have set out then you can't play tanki.

I once tried to read through the whole of the eula. It's a mind numbing read, very boring and at times quite complicated.

How any kid (below age of 16) can even begin to comprehend 9/10 of it is beyond me.

 

[brainhoo 735]

Just use a browser based VPN like Zenmate or similar.

[Mirza7 235]

Question: tanki cannot host the game from servers in Netherlands/B.... But can players in those locations access game servers that are outside the country?

[sezze100 416]

5 hours ago, Mirza7 said:

Question: tanki cannot host the game from servers in Netherlands/B.... But can players in those locations access game servers that are outside the country?

No , their server are irrelevant where they are . It is where you log in which is the problem . If you are from a Belgian or Dutch IP , you can't access the game . Solutions : move to another country , or let them think you have moved to another country ( aka VPN ) .

[falcosenna1 18]

9 hours ago, FrozenRailgun said:

What was your original message? Did you acknowledge in the letter that Container count as gambling because of RNG and requires real money to do it? And how it violated the Dutch/Belgian laws?

I sure did. They hide behind us, players, signing the EULA and therefore agreeing it's not a gambling game which is literally written in the EULA. 

Though, it's not because TO makes people 'agree' that it's not a gambling game, that it really is not since the containers violate the Dutch and Belgian constitution, which I have clearly stated in my message to Tech Support. I have fully explained even including the definition from the Belgian law and a referral to FIFA. 

9 hours ago, SONIC-BOOM said:

They tie your hands with their eula, if you don't agree to their terms that they have set out then you can't play tanki.

I once tried to read through the whole of the eula. It's a mind numbing read, very boring and at times quite complicated.

How any kid (below age of 16) can even begin to comprehend 9/10 of it is beyond me.

 

Indeed. Though, Belgium and the Netherlands tie their hands with their gambling laws, which TO has been violating for way too long. 

[Mirza7 235]

7 hours ago, sezze100 said:

( aka VPN ) .

VPN will kill the ping. proxy might be a better solution.

I am not in those locations but the servers I play on are in Netherland. If they move them it will effect my ping.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Mirza7

[sezze100 416]

7 hours ago, Mirza7 said:

VPN will kill the ping. proxy might be a better solution.

I am not in those locations but the servers I play on are in Netherland. If they move them it will effect my ping.

I think all tanki servers are in Netherlands .  Like i said , does not matter where the servers are , it is your IP which is the problem . I am not familiar with proxy , so no comment on that. If using proxy will hide/lie about your location it will work .

[falcosenna1 18]

TO failed to answer my most recent mail. 
And I see the CM still hasn't answered on this issue either.

[Blutaar 1,904]

4 hours ago, sarim2345_the_master said:

tanki servers are located in haarlem, netherlands

proxy works just as fine as a vpn

I have briefly looked into VPNs, proxies and browsers such as Opera. According to online reviews, a proxy tends to be less secure and it's still possible for your IP to be leaked [EDIT: this very same goes to most free VPNs too, any solid VPNs tend to have drawbacks in internet speed, GBs, etc. ] - the also applies to Opera 'VPN'. However, most reviews take into account complete security and anonymity of the services. So far, I do not plan to use VPNs extensively and only want to play Tanki on it. 

For this sole purpose, would such free VPN / proxy / browser sufficiently support accessibility to Tanki so that I can still play the game?

Edited December 22, 2020 by BloodPressure

[sezze100 416]

I just switched to VPN . Tried a game to check Ping and Fps , fps unaffected ( well logic i think but check to be sure ) and Ping only marginally higher , and most of the time high 20's , while without VPN is was most of the time low 20's . 20s is nothing so im very fine with a number like that . I am no computernerd , so i was a bit of afraid about setup of this kind of thing but it was a breeze . Pay the VPN provider , setup password , download VPN for Windows ( have many different version , like only for browser , for ios , for ... ... ) , run the setup , set Country/location , done . Lets say with paying and everything together 5 mins max .

 

[Blutaar 1,904]

42 minutes ago, sezze100 said:

I just switched to VPN . Tried a game to check Ping and Fps , fps unaffected ( well logic i think but check to be sure ) and Ping only marginally higher , and most of the time high 20's , while without VPN is was most of the time low 20's . 20s is nothing so im very fine with a number like that . I am no computernerd , so i was a bit of afraid about setup of this kind of thing but it was a breeze . Pay the VPN provider , setup password , download VPN for Windows ( have many different version , like only for browser , for ios , for ... ... ) , run the setup , set Country/location , done . Lets say with paying and everything together 5 mins max .

Things is that I refuse to pay for a service only to play this game again, it is a solid solution but I find it stupid. Unless I can find other purposes for using VPN I am not going to purchase one

[Blutaar 1,904]

10 hours ago, sarim2345_the_master said:

IF the game is not being blocked by the country.. which im pretty sure it isnt, you can try using a vpn to enter the game, then disconnecting it and it should give you the full speed of your own wi fi

I use this method to bypass GeforceNow region restrictions

What VPN do you use or would you advise?

[uno1011 7]

I still can login on my tanki acc, but not on server.

[Noghtfly 114]

So, still no official word from Tanki staff? Just remove the shop and you're done. 

[Spy 14,687]

45 minutes ago, Noghtfly said:

So, still no official word from Tanki staff? Just remove the shop and you're done. 

You can refer to this as an official answer from Tanki Staff.

[DestrotankAI9 1,513]

I think this is very sad news, and very much not the right way to go about this by Alternativa for many reasons - this is just not fair for NL/Belgium players. I will accept of course that these new laws do put the Tanki developers in a difficult position, but this is not the right approach.

I regret that I haven't commented on this issue sooner - unfortunately now it is near to the time that NL/Belgium players will be banned from the forum unless they use a VPN, so they may not even be able to discuss their thoughts with us about this any more.

I am getting ready for Christmas (obviously!) so to save time I will quote myself from a post I made about this in the Festive Celebrations topic where I covered quite a few points on this:

"While all of us are enjoying the special events tomorrow is the day that Alternativa will start restrictions for players from the NL/Belgium regions, they may not even be able to access this site, and they won't be able to play (except on VPN) in 1 weeks time. Many players from NL/Belgium have played the game for years and put huge effort into their accounts, and many of them have even spent a lot of money in the game (probably many on the huge Black Friday sales only recently) and the way this has been handled is a total disgrace from Alternativa. This announcement came with only a short 2-3 week notice period after many have spent on Black Friday, and for this major news there is no forum post, no public apology and explanation for this from the developers - we wouldn't even know about this if players from NL/Belgium hadn't told us.

This comes because of the new laws regarding loot boxes in NL/Belgium. Now many other games (I can't mention the names here I suppose) have made changes to their games to comply with these new laws and allow NL/Belgium players to continue to play the game. It would have been well within Alternativa's power to do the same, but instead their treatment of players for years from these regions, and indeed many paying customers is a shame. If they treat players from these regions like this, this shows their attitude to players in general I'm afraid - I would certainly be reluctant to invest money in the game seeing that they would plan to pull something like this.

I will accept that indeed these new laws do put Alternative in a difficult position but this is far from the right response. The only positive spin I can possibly put on the lack of a public announcement, explanation and apology to NL/Belgium tankers is that they do no want to draw attention to the fact they are asking people to get around the new laws by continuing to play Tanki on a VPN. I am not sure if there is any law against this but these laws were made for a reason - encouraging players to use a VPN to technically break the laws of their own country is dodgy at best. Furthermore players from these regions will not now be able to buy in the Shop (unless they actually lie and say they are from a region other than NL/Belgium - which Tanki can't ask players to do), so really this is hurting Alternativa also. They need to do the right thing by players from these regions and put in the effort to make changes so that these players can still legally play, just as other games have done. This is the only right and fair approach.

By the way - my country (the UK), the EU and USA are all looking into banning lootboxes. So when a lootbox ban for these countries comes (and it will), will they ban us all? They need to think more carefully about this and do better for NL/Belgium players, make the right changes, they might as well because new laws are coming across Europe, and other parts of the world, and this issue is not going away."

As I mentioned at the end - the EU and many other countries are looking into a lootbox ban - the UK has just finished gathering data on loot boxes to assist with making new laws. A ban has been discussed in the US Congress. So unless Tanki online is going to be a Russia/Middle East only game Alternativa need to start thinking about a different model - and doing the right thing to make changes for NL/Belgium players would be a good start. It would have been quite easy for them to make some changes, as other games have, to make the game legally compliant and allow these players still to play - I am busy in the coming days but will publish my suggestions soon if that may be of any help.

I hope Tanki will do the right thing by NL/Belgium players and reverse this shameful decision, and apologise to players from these regions.

[DestrotankAI9 1,513]

An article about discussions to ban lootboxes in the EU:

https://sbcnews.co.uk/esports-fantasy/2020/07/29/eu-research-agency-demands-urgent-action-on-loot-box-consumer-safeguards/

And in the USA:

https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/23/the-u-s-senate-is-coming-after-loot-boxes/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMgTDaO3zcErsU15T9cMw_YENeHeuuJyAM5f4PxdPWZEq3_wiOeU1eovJzyBdf6VfJmNCmiUTI4WQwp_SVBzXZJSA3QXx4UpetfXBLmlvTU8F6GaJOwUFGIV9FeehdyxCVGYVOJx3760yhhV6-6OMm5D-Va1ximwBe3MdONsMnk9

Alternativa need to think about an alternative model, unless they plan to soon ban us all.

[SONIC-BOOM 326]

1 hour ago, DestrotankAI9 said:

An article about discussions to ban lootboxes in the EU:

https://sbcnews.co.uk/esports-fantasy/2020/07/29/eu-research-agency-demands-urgent-action-on-loot-box-consumer-safeguards/

And in the USA:

https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/23/the-u-s-senate-is-coming-after-loot-boxes/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMgTDaO3zcErsU15T9cMw_YENeHeuuJyAM5f4PxdPWZEq3_wiOeU1eovJzyBdf6VfJmNCmiUTI4WQwp_SVBzXZJSA3QXx4UpetfXBLmlvTU8F6GaJOwUFGIV9FeehdyxCVGYVOJx3760yhhV6-6OMm5D-Va1ximwBe3MdONsMnk9

Alternativa need to think about an alternative model, unless they plan to soon ban us all.

That made for a very interesting read.

Eye opener for me, i never knew that this, are any other internet based game was under scrutiny for allegedly enticing younger players to gamble, and therefore possibly leading to a gambling addiction.

If this goes pear shaped in the eu countries, then TO is going to lose a MASSIVE amount of revenue.

  

[DestrotankAI9 1,513]

12 minutes ago, SONIC-BOOM said:

That made for a very interesting read.

Eye opener for me, i never knew that this, are any other internet based game was under scrutiny for allegedly enticing younger players to gamble, and therefore possibly leading to a gambling addiction.

If this goes pear shaped in the eu countries, then TO is going to lose a MASSIVE amount of revenue.

  

For sure man, this has made me research it too and it looks like big things are happening about loot boxes in games across the world.

Alternativa simply have no choice, if they are going to shut the game down for these 2 countries they are soon going to have to do the same for many more - which simply won't be viable unless they plan to only have players from Russia and the Middle East.

They must provide an alternative to bought Containers and Ultra Containers so that the game is once again playable for Netherlands/Belgium players, or they are going to end up losing a vast amount of revenue as more loot box bans come into play. Might as well start providing that option now.

If I was a government minister I would fully support any ban on loot boxes/pay-to-win buyable content, I think Netherlands and Belgium have made an excellent and forward - thinking decision to ban them. They are questionable because children do indeed play games such as these, and they may indeed encourage compulsive buying and could well encourage the development of gambling habits. I even know adults who are problem gamblers - I have a friend who went into over £20,000 debt gambling even though he is a very intelligent and organised guy. I understand why game companies might think these things are fun but I think there are better and more ethical ways to make income, Tanki Online for one can change and must change if it is to survive in the future.

Edited December 25, 2020 by DestrotankAI9

[Blutaar 1,904]

[Vin.exe 3]

57 minutes ago, BloodPressure said:

And yet they still say it's 'unclear' ...