Twins is able to move too. I've already described things for twins and everything else for the charts and tables in the topic and comments.

Some of them is controversial, some are too general and obvious. It's like to say everything around us consists of matter. It's too general. Let's do some math: 3 types of maps (small, average, big) 3 types of weapons (close combat, average range, long range) 3 types of hulls (fast, medium, heavy) 4 types of game mode (ctf, dm, tdm, cp) and we have: 3x3x3x4=108 basic situations at least u should consider. There are a lot of other significant factors you should take into account. Variety will grow in progression. All this facts skilled and experienced player should now otherwise tables and graphs won't help him. Anyway if u're intrested u can try to make something out of it. At least u're trying to explore. What's wrong with it. If drugging railgun or rico of shaft will engage in close combat fight against twins, vulcan, smoky, hammer they have very high chance to lose. U should know what guns are deadly in some circumstances for you, or when your gun is vicious. it was more about marketing. But now i can't change the title this feature is not comfortable. Arguing would be more effective if members seeked the truth. Instead most participant are just fooling around trying to refute anything because they didn't like my answers to their lazy ignorant answers, trying to recover their hurted ego.(usually highly correlates with message counter). They are sure that they are witty, they are not used to get kicked. They intuitively try to do swarm tactic, it makes them feel themselves more significant =) Don't ingratiate yourself with him. I showed what's wrong. U should consider different points of view and boil down your own opinion, the only true way. Never take any opinion blindly only because u like it or it sounds convincing. Conviction and prooving are not equal.

First of all he changed original conditions. If u didn't notice it or ok with that then there's nothing to talk about.

Yes u're right. It was very specific situation.That's Probably because we've been duscussing very specific situation on purpose. Argue was about rico vs shaft on a close combat. But u want to catch me on contradiction so hard that u can't see when i speak about general situations and when i speak about specific situation on purpose because that's the point of the thesis. I would easily refute this. But since u've ignored most of my arguments pointed to weak spots in your reasoning in previous message i will do the same. threat me with ban when it doesn't suit your argument. Don't say that's because of insults allegedly (on the opposite my words meant that u think that u're too smart to read my topic propely or google anything. Don't twist words like fcbayernmunch). When u lack of arguments it's good to have emergency plan B. Like they say all is fair in love and war. No they are simply wrong and too lazy to check anything by themselves or they follow their personal aims like to start a conflict and make fun with of it. I don't speak with such people politely. If u've red u wouldn't have said what you said in your previous message. I pointed everything in my last answer. You hushed it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_baculum I didn't know this combo is so expensive. U don't properly read my explanations in topic and comments or u just skip it. Treating me with a ban for being not polite and at the same time justifying inconviniet behavior and ignoring insults of other members and your own pokes. U wanted to win with cavalry charge, when it didn't work out u started to abuse your power and authority. You're not intrested in honest dicussion, so your following messages will be ignored. P.S. I'm not afraid to be banned i don't have anything to lose here, because i don't live on the forum. Conversely ban would free my time.

May be u'll finally go and check it with someone. Small map, drugs on, paints off, viking m2-m4.

Pls don't pay so many attention to twins. People went crazy when i said that twins dominate rico. That's only one of conclusions u could make looking to graphs and tables. Like railgun deals the highest damage in 1st second of the battle, or first 2 shots of hammer make the highest damage comparing to any gun in the game in first 2 seconds of the battle. Or firebird m4 deal the highest amount of damage in the game for 5 seconds and so on. People obsessed with that twins thing. My little secret is that i have 10+ accs and i have only one twins m1 on 3UO. I've never liked twins because of his law accuracy at range, but if twins catch you in the corner with flag u're doomed if u don't have twins resistance and isida able to heal you. i prefer rail/thunder or isida/freeze.

I like people cause i like their opinion not because "enemy of my enemy is my friend and that's why I should like him and then he will like me. Yeah we showed that squirt who's he, our likes changed the reality." Do u feel the difference.

U can learn everything about this arcade game during a month. Compare this game to WOT for example. WOT demands you to know a lot of thing about everything in game mechanics if u don't want to play a total noob and have 45% statistic. There are too many things u've to know that's why i usually play TO because it's arcade i don't have to be concentrated all the time, take decisions and evaluate game situation every minute i can just play intuitively, relax and get some fun of arcade gameplay. There is no deed in learning multiplication table for 5 years. I've been playing this game since 2009, i played along with the very first marshal T-1000, second marshal 777777, first druggers like NEY-1812 on brest map for 999 flags, 3 servers, restart once a week, huge funds, the SUN changes your game nickname through skype texting not via e-mail and so what. While these graphs are interesting, DPM is only a small factor in choosing a weapon. I've already described in the topic how u can apply these tables. I play a lot with Railgun on my alt, and while it looks to have a low DPM, the ability to hide out of harms way, pop out and deal a large amount of damage instantly and then hide again (Or deal damage, take flag and run etc, basically deal damage instantly and move) makes it very effective, and often means I lose a lot less health than if I had to be in a 1v1 for 5 seconds with Twins, especially when people could be destroyed in that single shot. Rail is one of my favorite guns. I've written about it. U didn't read again. Why are u explaining to me the tactics for railgun. U assume that i'm so noobie that i don't know basic game things. Indulgent behavior makes u very polite. Another example would be when I was recently playing a drug war and defending the flag. My turret choice to start was Smoky, but I switched to Twins, not because of the DPM, but due to the fact I didn't need to reload, so using an M4 Titan, I can continuously deal damage for a long time, which was far more effective than using something like Firebird (which in the first few seconds has the highest DPM), asI could kill an enemy and instantly move on to the next, whereas I'd have to reload, possibly without killing the enemy in front of me, with Firebird. The other largest factor was what protections the other team had. If twins didn't have high DPM u wouldn't kill your enemies and wouldn't switch smoky to twins. Smoky also doing continiously deal damage for a long time but lesser then twins. DPM matters a lot in drug battles. When I'm thinking about what weapon to choose (I have the pleasant situation of having a full garage and a bunch of M4s) I'm not thinking about DPM, but drawing on my experience to choose the gun that is most effective for the situation I'm in, or about to join. Of course. And DPM is the significant(not the only) characteristic which help u to make a decicsion what is effective. I think the thing that matters is damage dealt until enemy is dead, My enemies usually don't want to die for a long time. They use DA and medkits, even if i kill 2-3 enemies then the first enemy i killed respawn and coming to kill me, so i have to shoot always without pauses. It's more improtant how fast and how many people u can kill during the same time i'm not talking about how fast u can kill the single tank with your first balloon. Read the whole text in the topic please before u type your thoughts. sometimes for Rail that is instant, for my M4 Thunder it's 2 shots (2.5 seconds) on an M3 Hornet/Wasp, often from a distance. As i said i'm not intrested in considering situations how fast u can kill m3 wasp or m0 hornet. Light hulls are very weak. The factor that also needs taking into account is the fact many weapons can fire before they have fully reloaded. And if u red properly my topic and checked my rough copy u would see that the very first statement there is that rico is reloading during shooting and then i made a calculations which is directly based on this fact. Obiously u read my topic negligently and don't pay any attention. Then why shouldn't i do the same thing about your messages can u explain me. (For instance Rico can continuously fire, albeit at a slower rate after using its clip.) This also where your claim of M1 Twins beating M4 Rico falls down, that Rico is gonna destroy you long before it uses all its clip and you can kill it, then will reload when you respawn and repeat. My enemies uses drugs DA medkit they won't die with 1 balloon etc and so on. Already wrote that couple times. Actually, the range you're looking at is the min damage range, the point at which it stops dealing damage. The max damage range has to be considered too (At M3, Twins is 15m, Rico is 76m) That's a massive difference. That can be shorten in couple seconds. Twins do 4 times the damage after minute. Not after minute. Damage is a variable during a minute. But average DPM is 4 times higher. Why should i explain the meaning of the words. No 1v1 ever lasts a minute. At min damage, an M3 Rico will do 311 damage in a clip, destroying my M4 Viking in 5.5 seconds. (Assuming the extra 4 damage comes from the projectiles not all actually being min damage.) M4 only takes 4.7 seconds to destroy it. (Comparing to M3 and M4 Twins, the times are identical and this continues at average and max damage) I compare average damage because - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution. And the same thing again i don't play battles withought drugs my enemies insistently don't want to die in 5-6 seconds. You keep saying people keep talking about specific battle cases, well, these 2 things (and therefore your calculations) are also for specific situations! No it's generalization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization). I try to reduce numerous battle situations in common battles with drugs using generalized index, which u can't interpitate so directly. They're an insturments for assessing it's not a panacea. Something like GDP, if China has the highest GDP that doesn't mean that their country is the best in the world u should consider its structural economic circumstances and first of all clarify "the best country" term definition. Your inabilty to distinguish contrary terms specialization and generalization doesnt' make them equal. I also want to point out that insulting people and a condescending tone does not get you anywhere Quote :"The combination of the two makes you seem quite childish." I don't answer politely to rudeness and intentional ignorance. Your text speak, lack of capitalisation, poor spelling, poor formatting and bad quoting make your posts much harder to read, especially on a long form environment like a forum and does not do anything positive to the way to present yourself and your reputation I guess it's obviously that the english isn't my first language. I have to practice and learn a lot, this is actually one of the reasons why i argue here. I wouldn't waste my time only to prove someone in the internet that he's wrong and i'm right, it's ridicilous. I don't really care about proper quoting and editting, as i said don't want to waste time for such formal things, it's enough readable. Let me ask u a question what would u prefer: to be beutiful or to be healty?! U can't choose both. which, on the internet, you need for people to take you seriously. Oh that's why internet certainly was made for. Thx for explanation.

Rico was imbalanced before the first rebalance. Now it's just a parody of old rico. Devs always make imbalance with their numerous rebalanaces. Imbalance is profitable. People buy imbalanced stuff and then devs release paints against those guns and fixing their TTX. Remember vulcan and hammer releases. Guns first, everyone buys them and own everyone, then release paints against vulcan and hammer and then cut of TTX. So devs are the first who interested in disbalance in the game, cause people want to buy imbalanced armament. Where there's demand there's supply.

If 100 people would say you that if u jumped off the clip in the name of god u would get in heaven with 100 virgins. Would it be true? As i've already said millions of flies can't be wrong. Important point is that you changed conditions i offered. Island, drugs on, paints off. U changed it because u know clearly that rico in that case will kill twins with 1 ballon, during the first ballon rico's dpm Is higher than m1-m3 twins and equal to m4 twins. U've choosen the best conditions for rico, cause it's its only way to kill twins. Why wouldn't u choose m0 wasp without MUs to kill it with 2 shots? I've beed speaking all the time about more long time interval. I almost always play games with drugs, i use drugs all the time, if u met me in battle u woudn't kill me with rico before i use my DA and medkit. After the first balloon problem of rico's low DPM appears. U know all this perfectly, u keep uses sophistic tricks on purpose. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism#Modern_usage) You don't care about any truth u only obssessed in bringing me down. Why? I don't know ask your psychologist. I know that u're likely going to refer to my statement: "Even m1 twins will own m4 rico in close combat fight in equal conditions". U've lifted it out of the context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context). The context was that twins will beat rico during continious battle. So u lifted out of the context and changed my conditions. U showed enough who u really are. Since now i ignore all your messages except your mssgs about experiment "twins vs rico" with original conditions i offered.

Ty. They're both good on m3, both don't really need to be MUed till m4 cause theire receive not significant damage bonus on m4 unlike thunder or hammer. If u survive first FB balloon u will kill it with high chances. Conversally FB AOE damage is good also.

My very last message to you cause u don't want to check anything, u don't want to calculate anything, u don't even want to look on my calculations and graphics which i prooved with my calculations in rough copy. If u're not agree with my numbers then find mistakes in my calculations or proove it with your version of calculations. how can ricochet M4 do less damage per minute compared to Twins m2? Maybe cause dev made rico to deal less damage than twins m2 and m1 too btw. What's so suprising. If rico fired at a continuous rate like twins it will eventually do more damage, It eventually do the same amount of damage. U could check it yourself looking on 11 sec graph distiribution or if u tried to count it yourself. But u prefered to operate with your speculative thoughts in your head that are based on thin air. it doesn't fire at a continuous rate, so by the time rico fires as much balls by the time as twins fires its plasma balls, it will appear to do less damage true, that's why twins make more damage then rico.

I won't answer personally to everyone else like: deadmanrising, Mr.Sarcastic, Thomas11239, TG159, applications, Lord-of-the-Snipers and so on U don't pay sufficient attention to my comments and to my explanations in the topic, why should i repeat everything couple times for everyone particularry. Are we in kindergarten?! I don't have time and will for this. Most of u don't understand what DPM char means, u're hardly merged in considering particular battle cases. Some of u rephrase me and trying to attribute statements that i've never said (Ignoratio elenchi). Liking each other's messages doesn't make your statements more true, on the contrary u look like more like these guys: one says bahh and everyone else's agreeing with him.

U're again attributing your statements to me, which i've never said. And stop making pathetic assumptions about my skills, game knowledge, my rank, garage, it only shows again that u can't operate facts, why u always need to do speculative statements which barely connected to reality. I'm still waiting island experiment your m4 rico vs my m1 twins. It's just an experiment, if u lose it won't mean anything except that twins own rico cause of high DPM.

Reloading time included in DPM. I wrote it couple times, u could check it in my rough copy. Why do i have explain it to every lazy forum writer. No answering u anymore u're lazy and ignorante. U used to write first without any proper checking of what're u saying.

I made them. Check a link to rough copy in the topic.

another one =) I have to update my topic later.

"Saying Twins is strong just because of its DPM isn't very true" Actually it strong exactly because of his highest DPM. Twins don't have any other pluses. "At M3, Rico matches the firepower of Twins, " Matching process happens only in your head and it doesn't have any connection to reality at all. Even m1 twins will own m4 rico in close combat fight in equal conditions. I've already written that. I have both twins and rico. Check it yourself practically, try 1 v 1 island map drugs on pants paints off. I can actually play against your m4 account with my m1 twins. "some of your arguments are flawed" "but saying "Twins is the best gun because of DPM" is very narrow minded" Show me where did i say that the twins is the best gun. You're trying to attribute your statements to me again. And after that u're saying that my arguments are flawed and i'm narrow minded while u can't even understand what the thesis of the disput. "I use that thread all the time to help others..." Jack Kevorkian also liked to give advices to their pacients. Even the fact that he's doctor doesn't make him right. I don't know how noobie consulting is bounded with my DPM tables. DPM rating shows only DPM rating. If twins is on the top of DPM rating it means that it has the highest DPM. It doesn't mean that twins is the best gun ever. It's simple.

Ty for your words. Of course there are millions of other things to take into account, like for example the most obvious one, that you actually have to land the shot It's a matter of techique. I can't take into account players' skill factor. I assume that the player knows the game mechanics and know how to optimize his gun damage.

Yeah u've got the point. ;) I kill the whole enemy noobie team on 3uo with my m1 fully MUed twins and fully MUed titan m1. I can't do the same trick when i use rico, not enough ammo all the time. I wondered why most people here are trying to prove that i wrong instead of trying to analyze the data and make any interesting conclusions using this data.

That's actually why i posted this topic. People there usually speak about their favorite gun/hull 24/7 rarely using rational arguments. Meassages there is like "hey i killed 20 noobs with rico today it's the most powerfull gun ever!!!!111 Btw guys who knows how to turn a turret and what's pro battle abonement???". They usually use only their subjective, speculative thinking and bounded game experience. 1300+ pages of chit chat, no rational arguments. million of flies can't be wrong

You will never reach the DPM, no matter how properly you used your gun, the true potential damage is 100% dependent on the map, and the teams... sure particular cases are pointless for making a graph, but as my goals are on actually being able to deal the damage, i like to bring up the importance of the actual envoirment, where the damage is to be dealt. Why so cathegorical. I can shoot constanly as soon as cooldown allows just give me enough enemies. It acutally doesn't matters. U don't get the sense of DPM value. DPM shows average maximal potential possible damage u can deal, it doesn't depend on your place, your skills, your accuracy, enemy resistance etc. It's abstract value for perfect conditions. If u can't use your gun perfectly to deal maximal damage it's your problem then maybe u should read manuals, watch guides. And that isn't an assumption, but a fact. which come out of thin air again. When we played long 100 flags drug battles u could easily be kicked from team for using shaft, rico or railgun, cause they do low DPM. When 20 players swarm around flagkeeper side who deal more damage will win the battle for the flag, you have to kill your enemies to cap the flag before they kill your teammates and return the flag. U have to take Damage Dealer gun. U can't benefit your team with 12 rico shots, after the first balloon your rico is useless. If u play random battles against schoolboys using drugs rico is ok but u could've killed more enemies with another high DPM gun using the same drugs. Any gun against noobs is ok. I'm speaking more about effectivness, not about different play styles. I love "penetrate 3 enemies in line and hide" railgun tactic, but u need to hide because u're weak in face to face fight because railgun DPM is lower, conversarly twins must go in close combat to easily kill that hiding railgun, it's its vocation to charge in berserk atack. In general DPM shows 2 things: 1) your chances to win if u're involved in close combat fight 2)Gun's potential effectivness in mass drug battles. How much damage with particluar gun you can deal depends on your skills and game knoweldge. I'll give 1 example: you might have dealt the most damage on DM, but you still didn't get a single kill. The winner was smoky, he dealt the least damage of all the players, but stole every kill. That's particular case. My calculations is more usefull for team modes. Not sure what part irony plaid there, i actually think you deserve credit, in fact the reason i came back here and saw your response was because i used the graphs already. :) thx again ;)

Ok show your math. Calculations don't care if it seems to you a bit off or you agree or disagree with it or whatever u feel about it. Math operates with numbers, facts, arguments not with your emotions, feelings, superstitions. It's objective (defenition of the word: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.)

DPM shows potential damage u can deal if u use your gun properly. I don't consider particluar cases it's pointless. "You can actually skip all upgrades before m3-4," Sure u can. Although many people MU armament to rank up faster and to get more fun killing poorer players, that's the point of the game btw, express yourself with humiliating schoolboys, this game is not about fair play at all. I have couple m1-m2 fully MUed tanks (1 gun + 1 hull). "a big prosentage of exchanged fire relies on your projectile speed, knockback, firing rate and in general abusing the specialities your gun offers." firing rate affects only damage. I included it in DPM calculations of course. All other chars of guns are pretty useless and they don't really affect damage, as u wrote big prosentage i guess this assessment come out of thin air. "Not many battles come down to who dealt the most damage" Probably i play wrong battles. In my version of tanki online ability to destroy enemies correlates higly with the dealt damage. "Ty for putting in the time to make these graphs, i will sure be coming back to them as i have aimed to do research on what are the essencial attributes for a team to succeed in a specific types of battles against specific types of enemies." It looks like irony but if it doesn't then ty too for your detailed answer.

Check my rough copy in the topic.