Anti-Cheat feedback

[r_AdvocatusDiaboli0 861]

Few screenshots taken just minutes ago ... :roll:

http://forum.tankionline.com/posts/list/115900.page

 

Yes :) That is another thing to fix.

 

 

Edit, Quote

 

This measure makes shameless direct cheating unprofitable. Other mechanisms are on the way.

[r_Micky30 4]

This measure makes shameless direct cheating unprofitable. Other mechanisms are on the way.

I'm wondering, what cheating in not shameless or direct :lol:

If a tank is on the roof where it can't get according to the rules of the game, then it is direct and shameless for me :D

 

PS! Another screenshots taken few minutes ago http://forum.tankionline.com/posts/list/115933.page

Cheating is as easy as it was before and playing is as pointless as was before as well.

[Destiny911 0]

So your saying that if crime exists, that more police won't help to curb the crime?

 

Let me give you an example of how anti-cheats are always behind the criminals. Drug testing.

 

Peformance enhancing drugs are a profitable business. Everyday they are coming out with new undetectable drugs that can gone unseen with an "anti-cheat" engine called a drug test.

 

What would work signficantly better than continually trying to keep up with criminals staying ahead of any anti-cheat mechanism would be people assigned to uphold the rules.

 

Same thing applies within this game young man. (I am assuming you are a young individual because you have an air of naivete associated with your comments)

 

So in a nutshell, you are completely incorrect in saying that an anti-cheat engine would be a replacement for more sworn officers of the rules of the game. Anti-cheats usually lag behind advancements in cheating and can only be employed when they can be proven 100% successful against a given cheat.

 

Unless you have a magic crystal ball, and can somehow figure out ever single flaw and how many different exploitations of those flaws along with prioritizing them in the order that they will occur without sacrificing advancements to possible later version of this game, I think you are kidding yourself.

 

Just doesn't work effectively, EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Political views ROTFL

[MonkeyMagic 89]

Could somebody' date=' who has more information on that, tell us, will that first collect the data and analyze it later or will it block cheaters immediately when the anomaly in the game is detected?[/quote']

 

As far as I my knowledge tells me, Immediately as soon as the anomaly is detected.

 

really? is this how it works. hmm, i would have thought something like this would be done on a daily basis, say at server restart. its all that would be needed. running an algorithm constantly on an already lagtastic system ?? :( doesnt make sense....daily removal is enough!

[MonkeyMagic 89]

 

I think he got an impression if you have said that regular players can't be trusted and only admins/moderators are smart and honest ... :)

 

 

no, that was your opinion.

 

anyway you carry on rambling about players self policing the game. :lol:

 

MM

[r_Micky30 4]

As far as I my knowledge tells me, Immediately as soon as the anomaly is detected.

 

really? is this how it works. hmm, i would have thought something like this would be done on a daily basis, say at server restart. its all that would be needed. running an algorithm constantly on an already lagtastic system ?? :( doesnt make sense....daily removal is enough!

That's how it seems to work and it's the most realistic approach at the moment.

 

However, all what it does, is making mods job easier. It doesn't protect players from cheaters in any way. Meaning it is way too far from being enough, if the goal is to keep cheaters away.

 

Anyone can still launch a mult-cheat and rob the honest players by taking the fund. He will loose this mult by next day but will create two instead. etc.

Some checks must be active constantly and I don't believe there isn't hardware that can't take that load.

 

Interesting how long players will stay in the game if robbers take the fund constantly .... :roll:

If players leave, that would be perfect for mods/admins -- no players, no trouble :lol:

 

anyway you carry on rambling about players self policing the game.

What makes you say that?

[MonkeyMagic 89]

As far as I my knowledge tells me, Immediately as soon as the anomaly is detected.

 

really? is this how it works. hmm, i would have thought something like this would be done on a daily basis, say at server restart. its all that would be needed. running an algorithm constantly on an already lagtastic system ?? :( doesnt make sense....daily removal is enough!

That's how it seems to work and it's the most realistic approach at the moment.

 

However, all what it does, is making mods job easier. It doesn't protect players from cheaters in any way. Meaning it is way too far from being enough, if the goal is to keep cheaters away.

 

Anyone can still launch a mult-cheat and rob the honest players by taking the fund. He will loose this mult by next day but will create two instead. etc.

Some checks must be active constantly and I don't believe there isn't hardware that can't take that load.

 

Interesting how long players will stay in the game if robbers take the fund constantly .... :roll:

If players leave, that would be perfect for mods/admins -- no players, no trouble :lol:

 

anyway you carry on rambling about players self policing the game.

What makes you say that?

 

you are very short sighted if you think this wont have an impact on the hackers. it does not make the mods job easier, 3.5k hackers removed already: how many mods would it take to achieve this (one days removal)?

 

see this quote, perhaps even you can comprehend the worth of this update.

 

Maybe nobody read how this thing works it is a batch process. It is a daily database sweep where they run it against normal crystal & XP gains of users prior to the cheat epidemic. By doubling it they almost guarantee that nobody that does not hack will be targeted.

 

You have to wait until the end of each day for it to identify the cheaters. As they created more accounts they will be targeted every time they hack, eventually giving up.

 

This is not an immediate solution, it is a war of attrition on the hacker side. Once they see that they can't keep doing it without removal on each days batch sweep, they will either go away or be griefers.

 

So you will continue to see hackers for a while until they give up or read the forum posts.

[Imperial_Armour 1]

I suggested going after people who referenced cheaters but apparently I am a "crying noob" and according to koolwalky it's not a an idea at all.

[WiiTank 9]

just my opinion 4 a wannabe poll

this anticiter solution is better than a kick in the... teeth

but let say it is only a drop in the ocean

do u have an idea of such a many battles are swindled by citers in this really moment?

quite ALL Silence II (at least) have 1 or 2 citers that steal flags fasterthanlight

this really really suck expecially in medium and long battles where u lose all your job (and money wasted)

 

i thank u mods and staff 4 all the job u do to solve problems but till now... a drop in the ocean

 

hi all

[r_Mats22 0]

What makes you say that?

you are very short sighted if you think this wont have an impact on the hackers. it does not make the mods job easier, 3.5k hackers removed already: how many mods would it take to achieve this (one days removal)?

Q.E.D.

This is a new tool to make mods job easier. Just as I said. 3.5k hackers removed, 9 million to go :D

And I appreciate the evaluation you gave me :-)

 

see this quote, perhaps even you can comprehend the worth of this update.

Maybe nobody read how this thing works it is a batch process. It is a daily database sweep where they run it against normal crystal & XP gains of users prior to the cheat epidemic. By doubling it they almost guarantee that nobody that does not hack will be targeted.

 

You have to wait until the end of each day for it to identify the cheaters. As they created more accounts they will be targeted every time they hack, eventually giving up.

This is good to know, and yes, thats the most logical solution at the moment.

 

But it doesn't help at all.

 

Because it has a WRONG ASSUMPTION that cheaters doesn't want to loose their accounts.

 

Lets see it from practical side:

Situation: Player X wants to get a fund of several thousand crystals, He's first in he's team, but he's team looses.

So he brings in a cheater who grabs the flags and leaves the game (in ruins).

After the game Mister X creates a new account for cheating and using some automated tools bumps it to sergeant level -- it will take ca 15 minutes in total.

 

Results:

1. Player X wins the game, takes the fund and has spent extra 15 minutes to secure the win.

2. One cheaters account will be closed next day.

3. A new cheaters account is ready for next game.

4. All other players are left FRUSTRATED and thinking "do I really want to play a game like this?"

 

WHY WOULD PLAYER X GIVE UP DOING THAT?

[eessydo 17]

If you want to get rid of a large portion of hackers on most maps, just auto-ban anyone that grabs and captures the flag between each base in less than a second.

 

How hard is that?

 

It is the most simple developer solution, and somehow they think that creating some "algorithm" is a better idea?

 

 

 

I don't understand why the first layer of defense has to be so damn complicated. The most elegant solutions are simple as can be.

 

If you want to get more complicated, then get a sample of the average time it takes to get from base to base unencumbered on each map with hornet M3, cut a couple of seconds off that and there you go.

 

 

Oh, and bring on more mods with in-game boot privileges only, compile their boot lists and ban the whole lot at the end of each day. Once the problem is curbed revoke in-game boot privileges and go back to whatever shell mod staff you want.

[r_Micky30 4]

If you want to get rid of a large portion of hackers on most maps' date=' just auto-ban anyone that grabs and captures the flag between [u']each base[/u] in less than a second.

 

How hard is that?

Hi, hackers aren't that stupid. Many of them already wait for couple of seconds before capturing the flag after stealing it :evil:

Or only smart hackers survive measures like this :)

 

I dont't understand this: if players (games at client side) send each other their movements and positions, why can't they send the same data to server, which also knows what parameters each tank has and which checks, that all movements are within allowed limits. And if it's not ... bye bye.

 

Or apply these check only to the tank carrying a flag if its too hard to monitor 2000 tanks.

[eessydo 17]

Hi, hackers aren't that stupid. Many of them already wait for couple of seconds before capturing the flag after stealing it :evil:

Or only smart hackers survive measures like this :)

 

Yes they are. Most new flag hackers when they start out do this very action. You will immediately take out a large portion of new hackers that will be riffed that they spent money on something that is being clamped down on. Of course they will refer to their hacker forums to see how to beat it, but if you keep creating more layers and more layers the complexity eliminates the kids looking for a quick gain.

 

Automated security is about layers of checks and balances, and this is layer #1.

Layer #2 would be speed of movement. If you hop from one coordinate to another without meeting any of the coordinate points in between, auto-boot.

Layer #3 is allowable limits of crystal gains and XP gains.

[GhOsT.NiGhT 208]

i have been blocked for no reason

 

 

give me reason, proof any thing :(

 

this the second wrong block :(

[r_Mats22 0]

Hi, hackers aren't that stupid. Many of them already wait for couple of seconds before capturing the flag after stealing it :evil:

Or only smart hackers survive measures like this :)

 

Yes they are. Most new flag hackers when they start out do this very action. You will immediately take out a large portion of new hackers that will be riffed that they spent money on something that is being clamped down on. Of course they will refer to their hacker forums to see how to beat it, but if you keep creating more layers and more layers the complexity eliminates the kids looking for a quick gain.

 

Automated security is about layers of checks and balances, and this is layer #1.

Layer #2 would be speed of movement. If you hop from one coordinate to another without meeting any of the coordinate points in between, auto-boot.

Layer #3 is allowable limits of crystal gains and XP gains.

 

I agree, that you disable most of wannabe hackers this way. Statistically it looks good :)

 

But for me as for a player, even one hacker is too much :) The smarter the worse, because it would require more resources and time to create a report on them -- to capture the video instead of few screenshots.

 

In real life you will not use a medicine that cures the disease only by half, since the disease will develop a resistance against medicines.

 

I'm not against layer #1 measures, but for clients (players) the layer #2 is needed ASAP.

I don't know how dense the coordinate grid should be or how the movements should be checked. If you know it just implement the control system. Please ...

[davio1 0]

 

Layer #2 would be speed of movement. If you hop from one coordinate to another without meeting any of the coordinate points in between, auto-boot.

 

 

what if the player got disconnected from the server then reconnected again with different coordinates ? auto-boot ?

 

i suggest to add an in game voting system to these layer measures , when the cheater meets one of these layer measures

 

then he most likely to get banned by the voting system

[r_Micky30 4]

Maybe nobody read how this thing works it is a batch process. It is a daily database sweep where they run it against normal crystal & XP gains of users prior to the cheat epidemic. By doubling it they almost guarantee that nobody that does not hack will be targeted.

Hi, could somebody explain how this algorithm determines by Crystal & XP gain who is the cheater.

What number would be supicious and why?

[eessydo 17]

what if the player got disconnected from the server then reconnected again with different coordinates ? auto-boot ?

 

i suggest to add an in game voting system to these layer measures , when the cheater meets one of these layer measures

 

then he most likely to get banned by the voting system

 

What voting system? Once you die or get disconnected there is no longer a reason to monitor movement.

 

 

Mod note: Edited to avoid misunderstanding, Kindly edit the quotes before posting. - koolwalky

[davio1 0]

What voting system? Once you die or get disconnected there is no longer a reason to monitor movement.

 

voting system: is simply to have a kick-out button near each players name in the list ( you can see this list when you press tab in the game)

 

when the player get kicked by lets say 8 players (from both red and blue ) then he should get banned only when he meets the layers measures

 

( sufficient number of kicks + crossing layers ) = auto boot ,(i mean we shouldn't depend on only the algorithm to get rid of cheaters)

 

 

 

Mod note: Edited to avoid misunderstanding, Kindly edit the quotes before posting. - koolwalky

[panzer-runner 2]

What no one seems to be asking is "Why is no one fixing the exploits"

 

Everyone is arguing over the effectiveness of stopping cheaters AFTER they cheat. This makes no sense to anyone who writes code for a living. There are many cheats out there in the wild that show just how many holes there are in the code that Tanki Online runs on. Is this a problem with Tanki? Or is this a weakness of the Alternativa Platform?

 

Why would you try and catch thieves by letting them steal and then finding out their habits rather than just lock the door in the first place? From a technical standpoint how is it that people are able to teleport and increase speed and power?

 

What about patching the code so it DOES NOT ALLOW those acts to take place rather than behaviour modeling millions of players????? This is so stupid it's almost funny!

 

For example: when a map contains polygons / meshes that don't match up perfectly, or any other poor design work, it can be exploited by smart glitch cheaters to do things like get inside buildings or shoot through walls etc. In those cases fixing the map would stop the cheats. In other cases people have found a weakness in passing variables back to the game that must result in teleporting and all that (just a guess). Solution: FIX THE CODE!!!!! Validate that the player movement routines make sense BEFORE allowing it to take place.

 

My gut feeling is that Tanki Online is basically held hostage by the fact that its simply run on the alternativa platform which probably has many weaknesses and they are not very concerned about it.

 

Tanks are dropping onto flags out of thin air and the solution is to log the behaviour and develop models of the behaviours ???

 

Give me a break already. Fix the code !!!

 

I'd like to remind everyone that this is supposed to be a commercial game. People spend REAL money on it. To spend REAL money on something that is so insecure and broken like this is just crazy.

 

If the code exploits are not the fault of Tanki Online devs, but rather the fault of the Alternativa Platform, we should let them know with the voices of the 9 million players here!

[r_speedy560 0]

Good argument Panzer. That's why I don't spend a penny on this game.

[r_optprime0 0]

Give me a break already. Fix the code !!

 

don't count on it. the programmers are a bunch of amateurs.

I feel sorry for the mods. doing a dirty-job for free.

[cablaz 32]

Give me a break already. Fix the code !!

 

don't count on it. the programmers are a bunch of amateurs.

I feel sorry for the mods. doing a dirty-job for free.

Its not the developers fault, its the hackers, everytime they release a new Anti-cheat program the hackers get on it and find a way around it.

Besides the mods gets payed in crystals.

[sisif 30]

What no one seems to be asking is "Why is no one fixing the exploits"

My gut feeling is that Tanki Online is basically held hostage by the fact that its simply run on the alternativa platform which probably has many weaknesses and they are not very concerned about it.

Tanks are dropping onto flags out of thin air and the solution is to log the behaviour and develop models of the behaviours ???

If the code exploits are not the fault of Tanki Online devs, but rather the fault of the Alternativa Platform, we should let them know with the voices of the 9 million players here!

 

Tankionline is the product of the people developing Alternativa3d. Even if it wasn't, you couldn't blame a framework for the bugs in your own application since you are responsible for your commercial product.

But I agree that banning the cheaters at midnight is a terrible practice and one that does not make much sense.

I don't care if a cheater gets banned, or not, the next day. The fact that 3000 or 1 million cheaters get banned every night does not help ease the frustration that I get when I am cheated during the day.

The only thing is accomplishing is that mods might have less work, but as far as the game's customers go, this method solves nothing.

[MonkeyMagic 89]

What no one seems to be asking is "Why is no one fixing the exploits"

 

Everyone is arguing over the effectiveness of stopping cheaters AFTER they cheat. This makes no sense to anyone who writes code for a living. There are many cheats out there in the wild that show just how many holes there are in the code that Tanki Online runs on. Is this a problem with Tanki? Or is this a weakness of the Alternativa Platform?

 

Why would you try and catch thieves by letting them steal and then finding out their habits rather than just lock the door in the first place? From a technical standpoint how is it that people are able to teleport and increase speed and power?

 

What about patching the code so it DOES NOT ALLOW those acts to take place rather than behaviour modeling millions of players????? This is so stupid it's almost funny!

 

For example: when a map contains polygons / meshes that don't match up perfectly, or any other poor design work, it can be exploited by smart glitch cheaters to do things like get inside buildings or shoot through walls etc. In those cases fixing the map would stop the cheats. In other cases people have found a weakness in passing variables back to the game that must result in teleporting and all that (just a guess). Solution: FIX THE CODE!!!!! Validate that the player movement routines make sense BEFORE allowing it to take place.

 

My gut feeling is that Tanki Online is basically held hostage by the fact that its simply run on the alternativa platform which probably has many weaknesses and they are not very concerned about it.

 

Tanks are dropping onto flags out of thin air and the solution is to log the behaviour and develop models of the behaviours ???

 

Give me a break already. Fix the code !!!

 

I'd like to remind everyone that this is supposed to be a commercial game. People spend REAL money on it. To spend REAL money on something that is so insecure and broken like this is just crazy.

 

If the code exploits are not the fault of Tanki Online devs, but rather the fault of the Alternativa Platform, we should let them know with the voices of the 9 million players here!

 

whilst i do actually think that tanki seems more vulnerable to hacking than most games, its generally impossible to create a code that is 100% hack resistant. one thing is for sure; no matter how much time the devs spend rewriting and patching the code, it will only be a matter of time before an exploit is found and the whole merry go round starts again. its a never ending circle, that is a fact.

 

perhaps a better platform is the way forward, but hackers will always target games and there will always be hacks in just about every game you can play, its not just a tanki issue.