@Admins, What is the official boundary of Rule 2.18

[cheese3000 23]

2. What are the actions of reporters that you can discuss? Their articles? In this case public discussion is essential.

+1

 

3. Then you are allowed to give him or her the feedback. It's better to use PM in this case anyway.

So, the moderators can just make sure only they see any negative feedback about themselves by never asking for feedback?

5. Rules are rules and they are unlikely to be changed unless it's necessary. So I see no point in that.

how do you know its not necessary? I would say a change in this rule is very much necessary...

Would that be discussing a moderators/administrators actions though?

6. The rules clearly says that you can't discuss administration and staff actions. That's it. You can discuss weapons, contests and so on. You can discuss content and events but not actions.

The whole game is the result of the actions of the administration. I know that's pushing it a bit, but its true.

What counts as content, or actions? I would say the rules are "content", therefore Skitee should not have been banned for discussing them.

The opinions of moderators arent actions either, so you how can people be banned for disagreeing with them?

 

2. Rules are decision of administration so you can't discuss them in public.

If the rules are, then so are the stats of weapons. I know im pushing it, but in my mind, if rules are, then so are the content of the game.

 

3. If it is just an opinion you can discuss it. If a mod says that freeze is weak weapon and you think otherwise you can discuss it. If opinion is related to decision you can't.

OK, but I still think discussion of moderators should be allowed, maybe in another section of the forum, and of-course still with rules, but it should be allowed.

 

4. All the rules stated here: http://en.tankiwiki.com/Rules

I was asking which rules apply to moderators, and which dont. Edited July 2, 2013 by cheese3000

[r_AdvocatusDiaboli0 861]

You're the one that doesn't want to understand it. You're the one that, after losing his staff position, turned against us and tries to find holes in us. It's pathetic, you know.

 

Now I'm gonna get a sandwich, wish me bon apetit  :rolleyes:

The little bit of respect that I had for you, is gone. If anyone wants to close this thread go ahead, I see no point in discussing this anymore.

 

2.18 can be fixed easily by breaking it up into two distinct parts.

Edited July 2, 2013 by r_AdvocatusDiaboli0

[skitee 555]

1. No, it is only about their activities as moderators and consultants. It means bans, closing topics, etc.

2. What are the actions of reporters that you can discuss? Their articles? In this case public discussion is essential.

3. Then you are allowed to give him or her the feedback. It's better to use PM in this case anyway.

4. No, PMs are not public discussion so you can use it.

5. Rules are rules and they are unlikely to be changed unless it's necessary. So I see no point in that.

6. The rules clearly says that you can't discuss administration and staff actions. That's it. You can discuss weapons, contests and so on. You can discuss content and events but not actions.

7. There are admins for that. If you think that a mod banned someone for nothing or for something personal, tell about it to one of admins and this mod will be fired if you provide evidence.

8. It is aimed at making the forum more structured. If you don't like something about mods' actions you want it to be solved, right? Just discussing it is pointless. You don't discuss it when you hurt your knee you do something with it to stop bleeding, ease the pain. The same situation here.

9. Yes, I do as public discussion of bans, etc. is unnecessary. It makes the job easier for both admins and mods. If you don't like something you can always write a PM to an admin.

Thanks a lot for the reply. :)

 

1. So what exactly do consultants do which isn't allowed to be discussed?

5. I wasn't asking whether there was any point in it. I was asking whether the rule applies. As you've seen, this rule has changed (from Administrators to Administration) and rules can be changed. They may be unlikely to be changed but I was asking whether asking for them to be changed breaks the rule.

6. But creation of this contest, behaviour of the clan, and performance of weapons are administrators' and moderators' activities (creating the weapon, the contest, and being part of the clan). So how far does the rule apply?

7. So no safeguards, just a possibility to complain to an admin who will inevitably (and rightfully) be biased towards supporting the moderator? And evidence is required, despite the fact that whenever you get banned your message is edited out and there is no way of getting it back? Are you saying to take a picture of every single message we post in case a moderator wrongfully bans us because of it? How else do you suggest collecting evidence if this happens?

8. So the purpose is to make the forum more structured? Can you define structured for me? Anyway, you believe that the best way to do this "structuring" in this regard, rather than getting public discussions where people can agree on something together and discuss it with the person who did the wrong, is to go one-on-one against moderators, who, from my experience, refuse to listen to you anyway on PM? That is the way to get things solved? There's a reason why people tend to do marches, petitions and protests when complaining against a law they don't like rather than simply sending an email to their local representative in the Parliament: The latter doesn't work.

9. I said the community. Not the admins and mods. They are not part of the community, well, very few of the current mods are.

 

4. All the rules stated here: http://en.tankiwiki.com/Rules

 

So mods are allowed to troll, to fraud, to use decorations in topics, to threaten, to scam, to discuss drugs and terrorism, to advertise....?

Edited July 2, 2013 by skitee

[semyonkirov 29,038]

Question: Are we not allowed to criticize or disagree to a consultant's consultation/opinion? (I didn't say a consultant's decision because a consultant does not have the right to pass judgement).

Really appreciate you clarifying.

I see no point in disagreeing with or criticizing a consultation as it's a consultation, an advice. You can use it or not use it, that's it. You can disagree with an opinion if it's not related to decisions and rules. 

 

So, the moderators can just make sure only they see any negative feedback about themselves by never asking for feedback?

how do you know its not necessary? I would say a change in this rule is very much necessary...

 

The whole game is the result of the actions of the administration. I know that's pushing it a bit, but its true.

What counts as content, or actions? I would say the rules are "content", therefore Skitee should not have been banned for discussing them.

T

he opinions of moderators arent actions either, so you how can people be banned for disagreeing with them?

I see no point in giving negative feedback on a mod to this mod. If you want to complain, PM me, that's it.

This rule will not be changed and there is no point in discussing it, sorry. This is a general rule for Tanki Online, it wasn't me who made it. These rules were made long ago by the team of developers and they are a result of long planning and our vision of the community and what's best for it.

 

Let's just say that you can't discuss rules and decisions.

 

You can't be banned for disagreeing with an opinion unless you don't start discussing actions. Many start trolling and insulting, that's what they get bans for.

[cheese3000 23]

Thanks a lot for the reply. :)

+1

7. So no safeguards, just a possibility to complain to an admin who will inevitably (and rightfully) be biased towards supporting the moderator? And evidence is required, despite the fact that whenever you get banned your message is edited out and there is no way of getting it back? Are you saying to take a picture of every single message we post in case a moderator wrongfully bans us because of it? How else do you suggest collecting evidence if this happens?

AFAIK, there is a way to check(only for forum mods) how, when and by who the message was edited(all the times it has been)?

But, I still agree.

8. So the purpose is to make the forum more structured? Can you define structured for me? Anyway, you believe that the best way to do this "structuring" in this regard, rather than getting public discussions where people can agree on something together and discuss it with the person who did the wrong, is to go one-on-one against moderators, who, from my experience, refuse to listen to you anyway on PM? That is the way to get things solved? There's a reason why people tend to do marches, petitions and protests when complaining against a law they don't like rather than simply sending an email to their local representative in the Parliament: The latter doesn't work.

Agree, quieting anyone who complains isnt structure...

As I said before, a place to discuss moderators actions would be a much better structure.

9. I said the community. Not the admins and mods. They are not part of the community, well, very few of the current mods are.

+1

This rules helps the admins and mods, not players.

Seeing that people are allowed to discuss what the admins and moderators are doing would make me feel a lot more positive towards this forumSo I might even think it was close to good.

 

I see no point in disagreeing with or criticizing a consultation as it's a consultation, an advice. You can use it or not use it, that's it. You can disagree with an opinion if it's not related to decisions and rules.

What if the consultant offers bad advice, and you wish to offer your opinion on it?

I see no point in giving negative feedback on a mod to this mod. If you want to complain, PM me, that's it.

I think telling a moderator of his/her problems(according to the complainer) would help a lot, if the moderator listens.

Of course, complaining about a un-fair ban should be to a admin.

This rule will not be changed and there is no point in discussing it, sorry. This is a general rule for Tanki Online, it wasn't me who made it. These rules were made long ago by the team of developers and they are a result of long planning and our vision of the community and what's best for it.

So the administration dont listen to players?

Im not complaining agaisnt you, sorry If you got the impression.

Let's just say that you can't discuss rules and decisions.

 

You can't be banned for disagreeing with an opinion unless you don't start discussing actions. Many start trolling and insulting, that's what they get bans for.

What about the link skitee posted? he was banned for discussing this rule. He was not trolling, insulting, raging, spamming, swearing...etc, yet he still got banned.

[already.dead 360]

1. This rule applies to all the administration helpers, including consultants.

2. You can't discuss moderators in public if you are criticizing their decisions and opinions. As these two are usually connected.

3. Moderators don't discuss each other's actions in public but if that happened that wouldn't be against the rules as these rules apply to players, not assistants of administration.

4. No. But if someone doesn't agree with a ban he or she got this person should PM me Bruce as it would solve the problem much faster.

 

Generally the rule clearly says that you can'd discuss anything in public. You may discuss what you want using PM.

so basically moderators can write all kinds of stuff, and fight other mod's etc. on the forum without  breaking therules :rolleyes:

[JamesM10 14]

so basically moderators can write all kinds of stuff, and fight other mod's etc. on the forum without  breaking therules :rolleyes:

Moderators do have rules they must abide to, they are just not displayed in the 'Rules' section of the forum. 

[FederalBureauFBI 2,881]

And evidence is required, despite the fact that whenever you get banned your message is edited out and there is no way of getting it back? Are you saying to take a picture of every single message we post in case a moderator wrongfully bans us because of it? How else do you suggest collecting evidence if this happens?

Mods take pictures every time before they edit a post. So let's say you think you got an unfair ban - you complain, Admins check who banned you and then ask that Mod for the picture of your post. If the ban is really unfair, the Mod will be punished.

Edited July 2, 2013 by FederalBureauFBI

[Guest]

so basically moderators can write all kinds of stuff, and fight other mod's etc. on the forum without  breaking therules :rolleyes:

Don't try to joke on what Semyon wrote. What he said is really clear: Moderators don't discuss each other's actions, but if they do that is not against the Rules. Discussing Moderators actions is forbidden for players toward Moderators, but not for Moderators toward Moderators. What he said is clear, avoid joking or trying to change the meaning.

 

Also, Moderators and Administrators must all follow the Game and Forum Rules first, then also their own Rules, so they can't do what you listed before.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Guest

[semyonkirov 29,038]

Thanks a lot for the reply. :)

 

1. So what exactly do consultants do which isn't allowed to be discussed?

5. I wasn't asking whether there was any point in it. I was asking whether the rule applies. As you've seen, this rule has changed (from Administrators to Administration) and rules can be changed. They may be unlikely to be changed but I was asking whether asking for them to be changed breaks the rule.

6. But creation of this contest, behaviour of the clan, and performance of weapons are administrators' and moderators' activities (creating the weapon, the contest, and being part of the clan). So how far does the rule apply?

7. So no safeguards, just a possibility to complain to an admin who will inevitably (and rightfully) be biased towards supporting the moderator? And evidence is required, despite the fact that whenever you get banned your message is edited out and there is no way of getting it back? Are you saying to take a picture of every single message we post in case a moderator wrongfully bans us because of it? How else do you suggest collecting evidence if this happens?

8. So the purpose is to make the forum more structured? Can you define structured for me? Anyway, you believe that the best way to do this "structuring" in this regard, rather than getting public discussions where people can agree on something together and discuss it with the person who did the wrong, is to go one-on-one against moderators, who, from my experience, refuse to listen to you anyway on PM? That is the way to get things solved? There's a reason why people tend to do marches, petitions and protests when complaining against a law they don't like rather than simply sending an email to their local representative in the Parliament: The latter doesn't work.

9. I said the community. Not the admins and mods. They are not part of the community, well, very few of the current mods are.

 

 

 

So mods are allowed to troll, to fraud, to use decorations in topics, to threaten, to scam, to discuss drugs and terrorism, to advertise....?

1. Consultants' job is to help those who have problems with understanding the game and solving any problems. You can discuss these things.

5. Administration and administrators are the same thing and I just corrected the translation to make it closer to russian rules which are general ones. Asking for changing the rule doesn't brake any rules. This thing will be discussed by all the devs and will be stated in the game rules as soon as possible.

6. You can discuss everything you've stated. Not actions, but content.

7. Admins are neutral, that's the point. If you give me a proof of some mod abusing his rights, he or she will be checked. It's always done like this. Yes, evidence is required.

8. There is no point in discussing this any more as I promise do discuss it with other admins and change the rules if it is necessary.T

9. They manage the community and help it to solve all the problems, that's the point of admins and mods work.

 

Modes are not allowed to do things you mentioned. There are sets of rules for them, if they break any of them, they can be punished or fired. That's it.

[semyonkirov 29,038]

Anyway, the discussion got off-topic and not constructive.

We'll look into the Rule 2.18 and analyze all the feedback that you all wrote in this topic, thank you for that.

In case the rule needs more explanation or dividing it into two more specific rules, it will be done.

Thank you for taking part in discussion.

The topic will be reopened once there is a decision on this matter.

[semyonkirov 29,038]

And some beatiful post scriptum by yele which I totally agree with:

 

The aim of moderation - To maintain order in the lobby of the servers and moderate the users according to the GameRules. Due to this there can't be public discussions, every decision of a moderator is based on the Game Rules, together with the ban it says which rule was broken.

 

Public discussion would lead to further arguments, trolling, flaming and other bans, since the banned players forget the infraction and want only to create muddle involving other players without even knowing the reason. Every player who think he or she has been banned unfairly can appeal to the Chat Administrators with a PM. The Administrators will look into it and state a different decision eventually, if it's the case. Every society has its own rulesand laws and we aren't an exception: there are the Game Rules, and the possibility of complaining to Admins represents our democracy. We always work to improve the quality of both the game and the the help given, meaning the Moderators as well.

[semyonkirov 29,038]

So, I finally have the decision on this matter. All Tanki CMs discussed it together and we came to a conclusion that any public discussion of actions of administration and assistants of administration including consultants can't be done in public. This also concerns rules. When you join the game it says that you can continue playing as long as you agree with all the rules. If you don't, you should stop playing Tanki Online.

 

As for the problem of moderators giving unfair bans or consultants giving wrong advice, if you see something like this happening you should immediately report about it to an admin. To me specifically if you are afraid of admin supporting mods and cons first of all.

 

Thank you for reading this. I hope for your understanding.