Let's Discuss Smoky!

[wolverine848 13,097]

Yes this is exactly the Thunder issue in graphic form.  Andabout Smoky not thunder. But thunder's profile looks the same I will wager - just with different damage values.

Except...

 

Smoky critical still crappy - follows the downward spiral at longer ranges.

 

and...

 

Thunder owns Smoky at longer ranges. Compare the 10% weak damage of smoky vs the 50% weak damage of Thunder. Not. Even. Close.

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

Yes, that explains Thunder

 

IMHO the following turrets follow the principle to have a "full damage" to start from, that is somewhere between min and max damage:

 

 

• Twins
• Smoky
• Thunder
• Railgun (whereby here the max.Dmg.Range is infinite)
• Rico (not checked, but very, very likely)
• Shaft in it's sniper shots (confirmed by Tani_S)
• Shaft in it's arcade shots (confirmed by Tani_S)

 

those turrets have no random min/maxdamage to start from:

• Fire
• Freeze
• Isida
• Hammer
• Vulcan

 

 

 

 

So if we compare turrets in the future, we actually have to compare the average damage on the given range.

And.. knowing by heart that thunder has a weak damage of 50%.. this changes A LOT.

 

 

Sorry for the stupid question, but what is the purpose of the Firebird and Freeze max. ranges?

 

In general Rail and Shaft's snipe mode are attributed to be the turrets without range limitations. So they should be independent from ranges. Not sure about Shaft's arcade, but I can test it with my M2.

 

And one thing, that came to my mind: the Hammer alteration makes the pellets cone tighter, so you can hit distant tanks better, but it doesn't extend the ranges, so it doesn't make too much harm in the distance...

 

 

Yes, I tested it and I can confirm that both Shaft modes are independent from range. Maybe the intention of the arcade mode numbers was to show the range independence too:

 

I have Shaft m2 on another account, and I will clarify:

 

SHAFT ALWAYS DOES THE SAME DAMAGE WHEN FULLY CHARGED, REGARDLESS OF RANGE.  THIS APPLIES TO BOTH SCOPE MODE AND ARCADE MODE.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

My assumptions/understanding was, that Fire and Freeze have only one Damage (=constant damage, so no gauss curve). With fire's afterburn there comes also the two afterburn parameters into it: The afterburn is between "Min. burning damage" and "Max burning damage".

That's why it's a bit irritating for me when you talk of their max. dmg.

no, fire's afterburn works completely different.

The fire blast heats up tanks (increases a temperature parameter that each tank has) from 0 (normal temperature) towards 1 (usual max temperature). Depending on the temperature your tank has, it receives burning damage (the hotter the more).

The fire alternation increases the heating rate (tanks heat up wayyy faster) and it increases the max.temp (and so the inflicted burning damage).

 

 

 

I will try some test on hammer's range model. Also one weird rebalance thing is that Hammer now has 10 % weak damage :huh:

 

Oh and thanks for mentioning my nick :D

Yeah but the model makes sense. It is just "done" for each pellet :P

And each pellet starts of with a constant damage, no [min/max by gauss].

 

np for the nick ;)

Edited November 16, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Except...

 

Smoky critical still crappy - follows the downward spiral at longer ranges.

 

and...

 

Thunder owns Smoky at longer ranges. Compare the 10% weak damage of smoky vs the 50% weak damage of Thunder. Not. Even. Close.

check the thunder thread, I posted a DPM picture there that compares smoky to thunder.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

It would seem that much of the confusin come from the fact the rems "max damage" and min damage" are used to describe two different concepts:  There is a bell-curve-ish distribution to any give shot at any given range (man / min). And there is a max dmage range and a min damage range - and the extended "mind damage" range of 10% ... I think if they had thought of more distrinctinve names there'd been less confusion,

YEEEEES :)

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

list on range models edited, regarding Shaft;

thanks @I_already_won

 

http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showtopic=177141&page=242&do=findComment&comment=5868529

Edited November 16, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[Tani_S 736]

no, fire's afterburn works completely different.

The fire blast heats up tanks (increases a temperature parameter that each tank has) from 0 (normal temperature) towards 1 (usual max temperature). Depending on the temperature your tank has, it receives burning damage (the hotter the more).

The fire alternation increases the heating rate (tanks heat up wayyy faster) and it increases the max.temp (and so the inflicted burning damage).

Thanks, but I still don't know what the maximum damage of fire should be.

 

I tested Hammer and I could see damage numbers, which wouldn't have showed up, if the full damage of each pellet that hit the tank was applied. So in other words, Hammer's damage over distance gets not only reduced by a smaller number of hitting pellets, but also by the range to the enemy -> So with classic model A. It would be good, if someone has a hammer alteration and can check if the values for the weak damage are true.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Tani_S

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

Thanks, but I still don't know what the maximum damage of fire should be.

 

I THINK, this is how it works:

 

The firebird burning damage is a percentage.  For example, the heating rate of m4 fire is .2 per second. The cooling rate is .05 per second. Which means, after 2 seconds, that the tank under attack will be 30% to it's max temperature.  Since firebird's max burning damage is 60 per second and it's minimum is 2/second, that means the attacker will suffer about 20 hp the first second. (20 being about 30% between 2 and 60).  This goes down every second, and the burning damage follows the percentage of heat. After 5 seconds (full charge), in this way, firebird will have heated a tank up to 75% it's max temperature, meaning it takes 2 firebirds to unlock the full afterburn.  So the highest number a m4 firebird user will ever see (and they will see this only immediately after they stop firing) is about 45.  The next number that will pop up is 41, etc.  This fits in nicely with what I experienced on the test server, and means even m4 firebird's afterburn is very impotent.

Edited November 16, 2016 by r_I_already_won0

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Thanks, but I still don't know what the maximum damage of fire should be.

If you check the wiki, you see that fire has no "max damage", but just "Damage (/sec)"

This is the damage it deals from range=0 to range="Range of max damage (m)"

beyond "Range of max damage (m)" this damage deacreases, until it reaches 0hp/sec at Range of min damage (m)

If you think in the picture the model B2 gives, you can simply imagine that the min.Dmg was moved up and is the same as the max.Dmg - you have only one line for the direct damage that fire deals.

 

Please note that you have damage/sec in the wiki and in the stats; but the damage indicators in the game show you damage-per-tick. The tick in tanki is 0,25sec. So if your firebird deals 400/sec, then it will deal 100/tick, and you will see 4x the "100" pop up above your enemy for each second that passes by.

 

Afterburn damage is a complete different story and works more or less like described by I_already_won and me (the issue why I can only write "works more or less", is that we have not enough information on some deatails.. and the damage does not work out like it should when I test it).

Funny thing is, that afterburn seems to be not displayed by tick, but just calculated each second. seems strange to me.. therefore I am pretty carefull with calculating fire at the time beeing.

 

 

Hammer how it should work:

Hammer pellets deal a fixed damage when they leave your barrel (no gauss).

The do this from range=0 until range=[max Dmg. Range].

Then the damge per pellet gets reduced until it reaches [10% of it's original value]@[minDmg.Range]

Beyond the [minDmgRange] it deals no damage any more.

 

Besides that, pellets miss the target at longer range.

Edited November 16, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Except...

 

Smoky critical still crappy - follows the downward spiral at longer ranges.

 

and...

 

Thunder owns Smoky at longer ranges. Compare the 10% weak damage of smoky vs the 50% weak damage of Thunder. Not. Even. Close.

Yeah I agree the critical is still very low compared to before. But I knew it went down over range since they put in the little damage numbers thingie. So that part at least is not new info for me.

 

Where I was wrong was in thinking the crit hit was 9% above a regular hit at point blank range ... which is where I do a lot of my fighting. I was wrong. It does 30% more than than a typical shot at point-blank range.

 

Anyway to get to the point.

 

Before my rule of thumb was that the CritHit function gave Smoky an 1.8% DPS bump (as compared to eliminating it via the Alteration).  The correct number is a 6% bump. That in turn means using the Alteration sacrifices even more DPS than I'd thought.

 

It also means that Smoky's CritHit function still has a bit of bite. Landing 30% more at one time is something. And every so often you'll get two in a row.

 

So thanks BlackWasp for the complete picture!

[Tani_S 736]

 

 

I THINK, this is how it works:

 

The firebird burning damage is a percentage.  For example, the heating rate of m4 fire is .2 per second. The cooling rate is .05 per second. Which means, after 2 seconds, that the tank under attack will be 30% to it's max temperature.  Since firebird's max burning damage is 60 per second and it's minimum is 2/second, that means the attacker will suffer about 20 hp the first second. (20 being about 30% between 2 and 60).  This goes down every second, and the burning damage follows the percentage of heat. After 5 seconds (full charge), in this way, firebird will have heated a tank up to 75% it's max temperature, meaning it takes 2 firebirds to unlock the full afterburn.  So the highest number a m4 firebird user will ever see (and they will see this only immediately after they stop firing) is about 45.  The next number that will pop up is 41, etc.  This fits in nicely with what I experienced on the test server, and means even m4 firebird's afterburn is very impotent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you check the wiki, you see that fire has no "max damage", but just "Damage (/sec)"

This is the damage it deals from range=0 to range="Range of max damage (m)"

beyond "Range of max damage (m)" this damage deacreases, until it reaches 0hp/sec at Range of min damage (m)

If you think in the picture the model B2 gives, you can simply imagine that the min.Dmg was moved up and is the same as the max.Dmg - you have only one line for the direct damage that fire deals.

 

Please note that you have damage/sec in the wiki and in the stats; but the damage indicators in the game show you damage-per-tick. The tick in tanki is 0,25sec. So if your firebird deals 400/sec, then it will deal 100/tick, and you will see 4x the "100" pop up above your enemy for each second that passes by.

 

Afterburn damage is a complete different story and works more or less like described by I_already_won and me (the issue why I can only write "works more or less", is that we have not enough information on some deatails.. and the damage does not work out like it should when I test it).

Funny thing is, that afterburn seems to be not displayed by tick, but just calculated each second. seems strange to me.. therefore I am pretty carefull with calculating fire at the time beeing.

 

 

Hammer how it should work:

Hammer pellets deal a fixed damage when they leave your barrel (no gauss).

The do this from range=0 until range=[max Dmg. Range].

Then the damge per pellet gets reduced until it reaches [10% of it's original value]@[minDmg.Range]

Beyond the [minDmgRange] it deals no damage any more.

 

Besides that, pellets miss the target at longer range.

 

 

 

Great, thanks a lot to both of you!!! It took a while to read and understand it.

Some major points what I got from this (please correct me if I am wrong :) )  

• Fire's burst consists out of damage and heat
• Fire's Damage (/sec) is independent from burning damage (which is influenced by heat/temperature)
• Damage (/sec) is dependent on range of max. dmg. (dmg. decrease start) and range of min. dmg. (end = 0 dmg.)
• The burning damage is constantly changing and dependent on temperature (% between 0 and 1), which is again depending on heating and cooling rate. Burning damage is "max. burning damage" multiplied with temperature.
• The time frame units for both damage and burning damage are swapped between wiki and in-game

What we maybe should clarify is, if a tick is 0,25 sec (as Blackwasp said) or 0,5 sec (as shedinja from the wiki said). Maybe we should talk of a damage spectrum (instead of range) :lol: , when we mean the variance between max. damage and min. damage.

 

Then the damge per pellet gets reduced until it reaches [10% of it's original value]@[minDmg.Range]

Beyond the [minDmgRange] it deals no damage any more.

Why do you think that Hammer shouldn't do any damage beyond the [minDmgRange]? This is the point, where normally the weak damages sets in, which would be 10% (when we consider a single hitting pellet for example).

[Tani_S 736]

Just as an aside, Thunder's 100,000 Cr m3 Alteration gives that turret a 6.25% DPS bump. Compared to using Smoky's 50,000 CR m2 Alteration .. choosing to use that means a 5.7% DPS decrease.

There is no dps or dpm difference between standard thunder and thunder alteration. There was a difference before the rebalance, but they further reduced the min. and max. damage of the alteration by 5% => it results in -20% damage and +20% reload, which leads to the same dps/dpm (at least theoretically).

[LittleWillie 3,199]

There is no dps or dpm difference between standard thunder and thunder alteration. There was a difference before the rebalance, but they further reduced the min. and max. damage of the alteration by 5% => it results in -20% damage and +20% reload, which leads to the same dps/dpm (at least theoretically).

I did not know that. I was going off the values from the playtest server. Thank you!  I hid the OP.

 

Well well. A little bit less ThunkeyTown than I thought. :)

Edited November 17, 2016 by LittleWillie

[Epic_Space_Mango18 592]

Yeah I agree the critical is still very low compared to before. But I knew it went down over range since they put in the little damage numbers thingie. So that part at least is not new info for me.

 

Where I was wrong was in thinking the crit hit was 9% above a regular hit at point blank range ... which is where I do a lot of my fighting. I was wrong. It does 30% more than than a typical shot at point-blank range.

 

Anyway to get to the point.

 

Before my rule of thumb was that the CritHit function gave Smoky an 1.8% DPS bump (as compared to eliminating it via the Alteration).  The correct number is a 6% bump. That in turn means using the Alteration sacrifices even more DPS than I'd thought.

 

It also means that Smoky's CritHit function still has a bit of bite. Landing 30% more at one time is something. And every so often you'll get two in a row.

 

So thanks BlackWasp for the complete picture!

The critical for Smoky has a 20%chance not 30%....it even says it in the stats -_-

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

The critical for Smoky has a 20%chance not 30%....it even says it in the stats -_-

30% increase in damage from the average damage value for a non-critical hit...(before, players thought it was only a 9% increase). Check out the Wiki Editor's Hub for more detailed information, BlackWasp has already explained it.

[Epic_Space_Mango18 592]

30% increase in damage from the average damage value for a non-critical hit...(before, players thought it was only a 9% increase). Check out the Wiki Editor's Hub for more detailed information, BlackWasp has already explained it.

Oooh I misread then :3

[SNIPER_BEAST 0]

Even though i have a low rank, I have experience with smoky! (Trust me.) I have accounts that are field Marshall and lieutenant. However, one is banned from chat and the other had a mishap with a cry transaction so I lost all my turrets and hulls. Now, I believe at m2 and m3 levels smoky is one of the better turrets. At m0 however, I'm disgusted with it. Anyone can wreck you! When using m1, when you get the warrant officer 4 and above, I find it becomes difficult to play without using drugs, or power ups. Now because of this, i have a very hard time with smoky. When I make a new account and I am looking forward to smoky, I have to go through the horrible m0 version. I hated it. I say tank I should buff the smoky m0 dmage stats by 30. Note: I'm using the new damage system. The m1 could be improved with a bit faster firing rate and a 15 damage buff. This would make the smoky playable to me at m0 and m1 and enjoyable.

[SNIPER_BEAST 0]

Let me ask: what is the best hill to go with smoky? Wasp, hornet, hunter Viking, or Titan? Also, please add what kind of gameplay you prefer.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

I saw a lot of Smoky-Titans perform pretty well on medium maps.

Smoky takes it's time to kill, so the Titan comes in handy to survive that time. They prefferable seize a well chosen position and stay there, taking out/harming attackers while they go through the open.

 

But.. actually many of them were druggers.

Smoky works great on DD (high shoot frequency) and Titan works great on DA (lots of armor x 2 = even more lots of armor).

[sm0ky 92]

Let me ask: what is the best hill to go with smoky? Wasp, hornet, hunter Viking, or Titan? Also, please add what kind of gameplay you prefer.

I like Viking, it has better armor than the fast hulls, plus you'll need some speed to change vantage points or to get from A to B, or even act as an armored escort for a flag carrier.

[wolverine848 13,097]

I saw a lot of Smoky-Titans perform pretty well on medium maps.

Smoky takes it's time to kill, so the Titan comes in handy to survive that time. They prefferable seize a well chosen position and stay there, taking out/harming attackers while they go through the open.

 

But.. actually many of them were druggers.

Smoky works great on DD (high shoot frequency) and Titan works great on DA (lots of armor x 2 = even more lots of armor).

Completed my DM mission last night on Rio with Smoky-Titan. Was lucky to get some DD drops.

And as a bonus... I beat out a firebird-hornet for the Gold Drop!

[wolverine848 13,097]

Let me ask: what is the best hill to go with smoky? Wasp, hornet, hunter Viking, or Titan? Also, please add what kind of gameplay you prefer.

Depends on the map and what you want to do.

 

Very large maps and looking to CF?  probably hornet.

Mostly mid-field killing? probably Viking as you can last longer and still get some supply drops. And useful in CP as well.

Smaller maps and defending?  I often go with titan as it lasts even longer giving you better chance to dish out more hits. Also good for DM.

[USMC_Tank_Commander 86]

DESIGNERS - What you have done to smoky in this previous revision is nothing more than a travesty to the base weapon system.  I am getting sick to death of getting owned by every other weapon system on the battlefield because the system has the killing power of nothing more than a wet limp noodle.  Double digit damage at distances?  REALLY???  Come on guys (and gals too), if you are going to weaken the power of one system then weaken all.  I am getting tore up on the battlefield.  I watch as an unskilled player with a Vulcan just sits there in the distance and tears through everything on the field.  I can sit across a long battlefield (i.e. Brest) and I watch as my pellet shooter gets tore up by and M249 SAW.  I am sorry but this is NOT battlefield balance.  I am operating a stealth M2 (M1 50/50mu) and I watch as it now takes five hits to destroy a Wasp whereas before it only took two.  It took three to four hits on a Hornet.  Now seven or eight.  I have watched as my K/D dropped from 1.04 to 1.01 because of the lack of game balance.  I am getting really frustrated with this and it has to change.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

DESIGNERS - What you have done to smoky in this previous revision is nothing more than a travesty to the base weapon system.  I am getting sick to death of getting owned by every other weapon system on the battlefield because the system has the killing power of nothing more than a wet limp noodle.  Double digit damage at distances?  REALLY???  Come on guys (and gals too), if you are going to weaken the power of one system then weaken all.  I am getting tore up on the battlefield.  I watch as an unskilled player with a Vulcan just sits there in the distance and tears through everything on the field.  I can sit across a long battlefield (i.e. Brest) and I watch as my pellet shooter gets tore up by and M249 SAW.  I am sorry but this is NOT battlefield balance.  I am operating a stealth M2 (M1 50/50mu) and I watch as it now takes five hits to destroy a Wasp whereas before it only took two.  It took three to four hits on a Hornet.  Now seven or eight.  I have watched as my K/D dropped from 1.04 to 1.01 because of the lack of game balance.  I am getting really frustrated with this and it has to change.

check the [average damage per minute over range] diagram; it compares thunder to Smoky.

Then you can see where your strengths are

 

 

 

Thunder M3 average damage  <-> Smoky M3 average damage (incl. Critical)

Damage Per Minute graphs vs Range.

 

Mind that Thunder has additional Splash Damage, which is not part of this graphs

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[sm0ky 92]

DESIGNERS - What you have done to smoky in this previous revision is nothing more than a travesty to the base weapon system.  I am getting sick to death of getting owned by every other weapon system on the battlefield because the system has the killing power of nothing more than a wet limp noodle.  Double digit damage at distances?  REALLY???  Come on guys (and gals too), if you are going to weaken the power of one system then weaken all.  I am getting tore up on the battlefield.  I watch as an unskilled player with a Vulcan just sits there in the distance and tears through everything on the field.  I can sit across a long battlefield (i.e. Brest) and I watch as my pellet shooter gets tore up by and M249 SAW.  I am sorry but this is NOT battlefield balance.  I am operating a stealth M2 (M1 50/50mu) and I watch as it now takes five hits to destroy a Wasp whereas before it only took two.  It took three to four hits on a Hornet.  Now seven or eight.  I have watched as my K/D dropped from 1.04 to 1.01 because of the lack of game balance.  I am getting really frustrated with this and it has to change.

I usually hide under the bridge on the right side (in red) and wait for them to come into "effective" range - eventually they will. It's also a good sniping/patrol spot in case the enemy takes our flag heading for the pit or the right-side trench or tries to sneak to our base through the bottom away from the limited vertical Shaft range.