Review [Issue 26] [Comparison] Smoky or Thunder?

[donut70 97]

I'm seeing hardly any discussion about a skilled smoky user keeping a thunder user from ever hitting it by preemptively knocking off it's aim.

Coming from an m2 smoky specialist myself, the special ability of smoky isn't it's crit at all, (you can't predict it, so it never comes into my battle strategy). It's the combination of impact force, reload, and precision that becomes nigh on unbeatable when used by a skilled player against light and medium hulls that is the smoky's defining, and deadly, characteristic.

I know that thunder beats smoky in dpm  until m3+, but as far as overall usefulness to a team, thunder doesn't even come close to smokies ability to play defensive, offensive and mid-field fighter roles with equal effectiveness.

 Smoky can destroy attacking convoys by flipping, killing or using the impact force on a front corner and making the enemy ram into a wall. Running cappers can also be flipped at ramp tops when you need to return a flag.

It can survive for an amazing amount of time in mid-field positions by deflecting all shots aimed at it, and will often occupy nearly half of the opposing team in trying to kill it. {I've fought and defeated, (without cover) 3 railgunners at once without a scratch 2 times now}.

The offensive role of a smoky should really be that of flanking support for the drugging ricos, twins and isidas by killing and destabilizing enemies who are targeting the cappers,but If you are not able to attack in a convoy your best option is to deflect the DPed shot of the defending shaft (or rail) and hightail it out of there while firing backwards and using the impact force of your shot to slow, deflect, and destroy pursuit, (requires you to memorize the map).

 

BTW all of these scenarios are assuming the player is extremely skilled with smoky. When used WITHOUT skill smoky becomes almost useless.

 

If anyone has any opinions on my statements I would be happy to listen.

Edited October 5, 2014 by donut70

[Pathfinder 1,690]

I'm seeing hardly any discussion about a skilled smoky user keeping a thunder user from ever hitting it by preemptively knocking off it's aim.

Coming from an m2 smoky specialist myself, the special ability of smoky isn't it's crit at all, (you can't predict it, so it never comes into my battle strategy). It's the combination of impact force, reload, and precision that becomes nigh on unbeatable when used by a skilled player against light and medium hulls that is the smoky's defining, and deadly, characteristic.

I know that thunder beats smoky in dpm  until m3+, but as far as overall usefulness to a team, thunder doesn't even come close to smokies ability to play defensive, offensive and mid-field fighter roles with equal effectiveness.

 Smoky can destroy attacking convoys by flipping, killing or using the impact force on a front corner and making the enemy ram into a wall. Running cappers can also be flipped at ramp tops when you need to return a flag.

It can survive for an amazing amount of time in mid-field positions by deflecting all shots aimed at it, and will often occupy nearly half of the opposing team in trying to kill it. {I've fought and defeated, (without cover) 3 railgunners at once without a scratch 2 times now}.

The offensive role of a smoky should really be that of flanking support for the drugging ricos, twins and isidas by killing and destabilizing enemies who are targeting the cappers,but If you are not able to attack in a convoy your best option is to deflect the DPed shot of the defending shaft (or rail) and hightail it out of there while firing backwards and using the impact force of your shot to slow, deflect, and destroy pursuit, (requires you to memorize the map).

 

BTW all of these scenarios are assuming the player is extremely skilled with smoky. When used WITHOUT skill smoky becomes almost useless.

 

If anyone has any opinions on my statements I would be happy to listen.

1) Smoky vs Thunder you cannot 'pre-emptively put off aim' as effectively as you say to 'keep thunder from ever hitting you'. Thunder shots are instantaneous - when you press the space bar, the shot is fired, so as a thunder user of course you can hit a smoky.

 

2) very true all the characteristics you mentioned are key to smoky, flipping etc. Why aren't you taking into account Thunder's much more effective range? What about its splash that lets you hit multiple enemies as well as giving it versatility to hit enemies that a smoky' shot could never reach?

 

Thanks for your opinions, I guess as a 'smoky specialist' it's natural to have slightly biased views!

[r_Just_T0 11]

you didn't talk on witch weapon was better with paint on?

Is thunder better with paint or smoky/

[Thekillerpenguin 1,731]

you didn't talk on witch weapon was better with paint on?

Is thunder better with paint or smoky/

Paints only affect protection from a turret. Paints do not affect your turret's performance.

[r_Just_T0 11]

Thanks......I now have that cleared up

[donut70 97]

Sorry about the slow response Kirby. I have been very busy lately.

 

1. Alright, I will tell you the secret to fighting MOST thunders with a smoky. The reloading time of the M3 thunder, (those are the ones I am currently fighting) is 2. 3 seconds per shot. First you have to memorize this instinctually (and adjust for MUs), then you can apply it to a battle. (I am a bit worried this post will make the readers who use thunder harder for me to fight, but I suppose I need a challenge) MOST, but not all, thunder users hold their fingers down on the spacebar as they reload when they believe they are aimed correctly. It is this mistake that makes thunders easy for me to kill when I am close. Due to the smoky's 1.5 times faster reload you can always be assured of getting the first shot. Using this shot, hit the thunder at about .2-.3 seconds before he reloads (this is more instinct than anything). Some thunder users are skilled enough not to press the spacebar, but most don't have the presence of mind to stop themselves from firing into the distance, (even 3 or 4 times in a row :D).

 

Now comes the hard part. If the smoky user fired his 2nd shot as soon as it reloaded, the thunder would reload, fire, and damage the smoky before the smoky could knock him off target. This means that the smoky will have to decide if it is willing to give up firing 3 shots to the thunders 2 in exchange for possibly keeping the thunder from hurting it at all. Meanwhile, the (assumed to be skilled) thunder has not realized what the smoky is doing, but has become more careful in his shooting and more likely to hold his thumb above the spacebar until the moment of reload, (giving the thunder a reaction time window of about .2 seconds to stop himself from firing when knocked off target) this means that the smoky user will have to add a pseudo psychology factor to the already memorized reloading equation. He will have to predict the exact moment when the opponent decides to fire and twitches his finger muscles in the .1 second window BEFORE he actually begins to press the spacebar. That is the window of opportunity the smoky must fire at. This is extremely hard, but it is certainly possible, I have used it before to great effect.

 

Now I must show the flaws in this strategy that forced me to say that only most thunders can be beaten like this and not all.

First, the thunder must not be next to you or rammed into you for the impact to turn him enough, (of course this means he's doing splash damage to himself too :D). Second, he must be using a Viking or lighter to turn him enough, ( and Viking only turns enough half the time) Third, a not only skilled but smart thunder will be patient with his second shot, if he waits just .3 seconds after he reloads to fire then the smoky will not be able to predict it, (unless these 2 have dueled before and the smoky knows his tricks and patterns [unlikely])

 

2.A. The thunder's max ranged damage and the smoky's max ranged damage have been switched. This does sometimes cause a problem. That is why the smoky must always keep his range in mind. I use the mental picture of the max range of a twins,which is almost equal to the max damage range of a smoky. He must always remain on the move and fight like a guerilla in order to fight well. This is fairly easily done and negates thunder's range advantage in most cases.

 

2.B. Now I will address thunder's splash. The special ability of the thunder is more predictable then the smoky , so it can be used as part of the strategy. This allows thunder to do some pretty neat things. In order for the splash to hurt multiple enemies the enemies in question must be fairly bunched together, and as long as your teammates are smart, they will not fall for this most of the time. The splash damage is also a two-edged sword, there is a well know tactic for killing even drugging thunders. Charging and ramming a thunder while you fire at it forces the thunder to hurt itself extra in order to get rid of you. (Personally this is the main reason I don't use thunder.)

 

"(what about the splash) giving it versatility to hit enemies that a smoky's shot could never reach?"  I am assuming you are reffering to the thunder's ability to hit enemies in cover, or shoot enemies without exposing itself from cover. This is indeed a useful ability, but the smoky balances that with it's impact force. The smoky is able to move out from cover without fear of return fire as long as the smoky is able to knock the enemies off target and has good battlefield awareness. this same impact force also allows the smoky to "storm the base" of the hiding enemy , (as long as it isn't a firebird or a freeze) and quickly continue to a strategic point or the enemy flag without getting trapped in an extended sniper duel.

Edited November 13, 2014 by donut70

[shadow33344 2]

i prefer rico ;)

[Pathfinder 1,690]

Sorry about the slow response Kirby. I have been very busy lately.

 

1. Alright, I will tell you the secret to fighting MOST thunders with a smoky. The reloading time of the M3 thunder, (those are the ones I am currently fighting) is 2. 3 seconds per shot. First you have to memorize this instinctually (and adjust for MUs), then you can apply it to a battle. (I am a bit worried this post will make the readers who use thunder harder for me to fight, but I suppose I need a challenge) MOST, but not all, thunder users hold their fingers down on the spacebar as they reload when they believe they are aimed correctly. It is this mistake that makes thunders easy for me to kill when I am close. Due to the smoky's 1.5 times faster reload you can always be assured of getting the first shot. Using this shot, hit the thunder at about .2-.3 seconds before he reloads (this is more instinct than anything). Some thunder users are skilled enough not to press the spacebar, but most don't have the presence of mind to stop themselves from firing into the distance, (even 3 or 4 times in a row :D).

 

Now comes the hard part. If the smoky user fired his 2nd shot as soon as it reloaded, the thunder would reload, fire, and damage the smoky before the smoky could knock him off target. This means that the smoky will have to decide if it is willing to give up firing 3 shots to the thunders 2 in exchange for possibly keeping the thunder from hurting it at all. Meanwhile, the (assumed to be skilled) thunder has not realized what the smoky is doing, but has become more careful in his shooting and more likely to hold his thumb above the spacebar until the moment of reload, (giving the thunder a reaction time window of about .2 seconds to stop himself from firing when knocked off target) this means that the smoky user will have to add a pseudo psychology factor to the already memorized reloading equation. He will have to predict the exact moment when the opponent decides to fire and twitches his finger muscles in the .1 second window BEFORE he actually begins to press the spacebar. That is the window of opportunity the smoky must fire at. This is extremely hard, but it is certainly possible, I have used it before to great effect.

 

Now I must show the flaws in this strategy that forced me to say that only most thunders can be beaten like this and not all.

First, the thunder must not be next to you or rammed into you for the impact to turn him enough, (of course this means he's doing splash damage to himself too :D). Second, he must be using a Viking or lighter to turn him enough, ( and Viking only turns enough half the time) Third, a not only skilled but smart thunder will be patient with his second shot, if he waits just .3 seconds after he reloads to fire then the smoky will not be able to predict it, (unless these 2 have dueled before and the smoky knows his tricks and patterns [unlikely])

 

2.A. The thunder's max ranged damage and the smoky's max ranged damage have been switched. This does sometimes cause a problem. That is why the smoky must always keep his range in mind. I use the mental picture of the max range of a twins,which is almost equal to the max damage range of a smoky. He must always remain on the move and fight like a guerilla in order to fight well. This is fairly easily done and negates thunder's range advantage in most cases.

 

2.B. Now I will address thunder's splash. The special ability of the thunder is more predictable then the smoky , so it can be used as part of the strategy. This allows thunder to do some pretty neat things. In order for the splash to hurt multiple enemies the enemies in question must be fairly bunched together, and as long as your teammates are smart, they will not fall for this most of the time. The splash damage is also a two-edged sword, there is a well know tactic for killing even drugging thunders. Charging and ramming a thunder while you fire at it forces the thunder to hurt itself extra in order to get rid of you. (Personally this is the main reason I don't use thunder.)

 

"(what about the splash) giving it versatility to hit enemies that a smoky's shot could never reach?"  I am assuming you are reffering to the thunder's ability to hit enemies in cover, or shoot enemies without exposing itself from cover. This is indeed a useful ability, but the smoky balances that with it's impact force. The smoky is able to move out from cover without fear of return fire as long as the smoky is able to knock the enemies off target and has good battlefield awareness. this same impact force also allows the smoky to "storm the base" of the hiding enemy , (as long as it isn't a firebird or a freeze) and quickly continue to a strategic point or the enemy flag without getting trapped in an extended sniper duel.

I can kinda see what you're trying to say, that is when a Thunder presses the space bar there's a slight window where you might get in before and hit him. But honestly, I think you're over thinking it. You cannot use specific situations to emphasise when a Smoky's ability may be better than thunders in that situation. You say 'guerrilla tactics' 'negates thunders range advantage in most cases'. Well actually, I could quite easily say the opposite :p That is Thunder users can also use guerrilla tactics to neutralise the impact force of a smoky, and this would be even easier due to the more effective range.

 

Furthermore, when you talk about the prediction of when to shoot etc, you're oversimplifying to a basic open scenario, one on one. In reality this is completely different - if I were a thunder user I would find cover, and shoot out only when I'm ready to fire. This would mean you could only hit me as many times as I hit you: i deal more damage. If you wanted to do the same? Splash means it wouldn't be as easy for you to try and find cover.

 

Anyway, I think you're overthinking things, and a lot of your arguments are based on things like ''most thunders will hold their space bars' and 'thunder users are not clever enough...'. You're pretty much assuming that a Thunder is going to play into your hands - you are assuming that a thunder will not be clever or skilled enough in the first place, which is hardly fair when comparing two weapons. I could use your same logic that one on one definitely Smoky beats a Railgun right? When he lights up you fire? Would you also say that Smoky is better than rail? You can't use situations like these to illustrate your apparent strategy where you initially said 'thunder could never hit it'.

 

Anyway, I think you should take on a more open minded view - there is a reason why many of the top players play with thunder and how they do so well. You might be very skilled with smoky, but you definitley can't make a blanket statement that smoky is better than thunder. They are very different weapons.

[R.4.Z.O.R 1,067]

Thunder and smoky both are very good turrets to use.But i think smoky is much more over-powered after the rebalance update.So im voting for smoky.Dont hate me,thunder lovers

[Pathfinder 1,690]

Thunder and smoky both are very good turrets to use.But i think smoky is much more over-powered after the rebalance update.So im voting for smoky.Dont hate me,thunder lovers

You're perfectly entitled to your own view :)

 

I'm a smoky fan myself. And I'm gutted I couldn't rank in time for the 70% sale!

[R.4.Z.O.R 1,067]

You're perfectly entitled to your own view :)

I'm a smoky fan myself. And I'm gutted I couldn't rank in time for the 70% sale!

All isnt lost.Cristmas is soon to come.Good Luck in ranking.Inform me if your having a party xD.probably not even gonna fit in. :P Edited November 15, 2014 by R.4.Z.O.R

[r_Just_T0 11]

I love thunder!

Especially when fighting against a non-upgraded wasp or hornet. (Two shots and there dead)

The splash is used more effectively in deathmatches.

Which is more widely used, smoky or thunder?

[donut70 97]

Just_T the thunder is more widely used right now, that might change in the future though.

[hogree 4,179]

^I'd disagree with that, actually. From a Generallisimo's perspective, Smoky is definitely more popular. Though Thunder has grown in popularity since Predictable Drops due to splash damage counting for a lot more with all the "Crystal Rushes".

[MCPON 27]

Hey guys, I just got a m2 smoky on 70% sale. Would an m3 thunder be worth now?

[Pathfinder 1,690]

Hey guys, I just got a m2 smoky on 70% sale. Would an m3 thunder be worth now?

I think so :)

[P.T.X 2]

SMOKY

[r_BLASTOY0 32]

At M3(no MUs) Smoky>>Thunder  .At M4 Thunder surpasses smoky due to its good reload combined high damage and splash

[geniekim 2]

Smoky is obivously better in m2 and m3, but If you stick on smoky m1 until

colonel, you'll called noob

[anshi_bringitup 16]

Thunder is a great weapon but I sometimes fell smoky is a bit annoying when use bye skilled players

[SARA41 1]

i think both turrets have their own benefits in different situation 

so i think   Smoky = Thunder

[r_ruler-tanki0 2]

thunder is really the best. i have used both thunder and smoky and i felt it great with thunder and with smoky, not that much.thunder can make a team win coz it has splash damage and it can deal upto 10 members at a time but smoky deals less damage per shot and it can handle only 1 at a time. i also admit that thunder will self distruct so many times, but it also makes the team win.if thunder self distructs , u will lose few points but u will not lose the match.it may bring bad effect to u but not to the team. first of all dont care about ur points u ve earned in the match, care about u r team. thats it!! my opinion about thunder!! all the best out there!! finally, i m not teasing smoky.smoky is also great and deadly but thunder leads. ;)

[r_ruler-tanki0 2]

h

[12miko 0]

Great comparison ..but ill always go for thunder ;)  :D

[Benefactor 6,888]

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