Why Selling Power is Bad for Everyone

[Para_CW 19]

First of all, let's define "selling power."  In Tanki, this means selling defensive paints, micro upgrades and supplies.  (Turrets and hulls are legitimate parts of the game.)  While this seems innocuous enough and the most obvious way for the devs to make money, selling power is actually holding back the game and reducing developer revenue.  Let me explain:

 

Everyone wants to buy power.  It is the single most desired commodity on the planet because once you have power you can use it to get more power.  This is true in Tanki as it is in life.  The best player in a round (who usually drugs and buys upgrades) often makes as much as 20x more crystals as the lesser players.  Power begets power.  That's a basic fact.

 

This is why one of the axioms of free to play games is to never sell power.  It creates a class of elites.  But it goes much deeper than that.

 

I have been a gamer since the mid 1970's.  Longer than many of your parents have been alive and I certainly don't have a problem paying for games; never have, but I DON"T BUY POWER.  Why?  The problem lies in the reason that we all play games against one another.  We want to know how good we are compared to other gamers.  Victory in a game is meaningless if you bought your way there.

 

By refusing to spend real money to buy my way to success, I get to find out if I have real skill because I only use what the game freely gives me and my equipment is no better than anyone else's.  Whatever victories I have, I know I have earned them.  It is the most important experience anyone can have in a game.

 

While the temptation to buy (and sell) power is very great, this has to be denied to paying gamers so that they can have a real gaming experience.  Otherwise their gaming experience is an empty one.  When I succeed, it is against even or greater odds; when a buyer of power succeeds, it is always against lesser odds.  Who is being challenged and having the better gaming experience?  Me.  (unless it gets ridiculously unbalanced.)  Against all logic, not paying to play is increasing my gaming satisfaction.

 

That's why it's bad for paying players to be able to buy power: it diminishes their experience.  They think they want it, but it is actually ruining the game for them, particularly in a format that is all P.v.P.

 

Selling power masks deficiencies in the game and keeps them that way.  Players who pay for power will always complain that they don't have enough and resist changes that nerf that power.  Since they're paying, the dev's take them seriously, but this leaves the game unbalanced for everyone else.  It's a bit like the economy and Congress.

 

It's bad for developers because a free to play game gains paying players as a percentage of the free play players who join.  The longer someone plays, the more likely they are to turn into a paying player or bring in other players who do pay.  It is the free players who decide if a game is going to be popular.  Selling power puts them at a constant disadvantage in game play, especially at the higher levels and means that they can never achieve elite status.  In games that sell power, there will always be a large drop off free players at the exact point that their skill is outweighed by the disadvantages they face.  (For me on Tanki this is coming around WO4.)  This point should be pretty visible to developers.

 

This is where a game loses steam and enters stasis, neither growing nor shrinking a lot.  There are constantly new players because the game is quite good, but so many leave when the game starts to get too difficult that it tends to even out.

 

If a game does not sell power, then the base of free players will grow much larger because if the game is good and they're not getting frustrated, they won't leave.  This increases the base of paying players.  The devs don't make as much on individual players who are constantly in an arms race to buy more power, but they make up for it in volume.

 

So how do you sell stuff when you don't sell power?  You sell convenience.

 

1.  Sell experience:  This is convenience, not power, because a person moving faster through the ranks doesn't affect those around him/her.

2.  Sell individuality:  Bling for tanks.  Many free to play games sell customizable skins.  They don't affect game play and help players stand out in a crowd.

3.  Sell reduced waiting times for stuff that's bought.

4.  Sell early access to new features.

5.  Sell access to multiple turrets and hulls past M1.  (Free players can only afford to upgrade one hull and one turret past M1.)

6.  Sell notability:  A player who pays can have their own Tanki web page.

 

I'm sure there are other things that can be found that will increase the coffers without selling power.  it takes some creativity, but it's doable.  Just don't sell power.

 

 

[dilsharox 2,395]

i didnt bother to read the whole thing down bt if your suggesting to remove MU's & paints thats not gonna happen

[deadtoyou 2,502]

Removing the buy option...leads to no income for the Tanki team...leads to no way to pay for new updates and programming....leads to Tanki staff being laid off....leads to Tanki being a ghost server.

Besides, I've bought crystals before, and my Tanki experience is as good as ever, so I disagree with you on that.

 

On another note, this whole idea about not selling power....sounds weird.

 

Custom paints would be buggy by the way, or offensive, or profane, or explicit....you get the idea.

 

They already sell access to M2 weapons at WO5, what more do you want?

 

Can you imagine all the websites that would be created just because someone pays Tanki? It would cost them more than it would profit them.

 

What new features? That is only available to Testers, and sometimes they open the Test server for mass testing. I consider myself lucky to be able to play there sometimes, you should too.

 

Selling experience is suggested in this topic: Premium Account (double posting ideas is against the Rules.)

 

I didn't read through the entire post, mainly because of the length.  :wacko:

 

And if you aren't buying crystals and getting good gaming experience, Good. For. You. I get the same experience, even though I have bought once.

[SicTransitGloria 76]

I sort of agree. Somewhat.

 

Okay, I get what you're trying to say. Paying money to blow away your enemies isn't as fun as working your way up. I agree. I don't agree with many of your solutions.

 

1. Imagine very bad players at very high ranks. Somewhat sad, is it not, to imagine them dying so quickly against people who know what they're doing? Okay, now imagine all those noob players on your team. Still for this idea?

2. They've actually mentioned that in the Unity version, they'll probably add decals. So, yeah, it's coming.

3. Um...buying an item from the shop gives it to you instantly. The only things you have to wait for are microupgrades, and you can already pay crystals to speed those up.

4. Tanki isn't big on adding shiny new game-changing features. This would be useless.

5. NO. That's a good way to anger your entire community of generalissimos.

6. If they really do add stats (like they said they would in the New Years video) then I suppose each player would have to have their own page or something. But I imagine few people would actually pay for a full blown webpage for themselves (though I bet a clan might).

[metalcrusher 514]

Since 70's?

Um I don't think there was computer games in the 70's

And no option to buy ingame things till like the 2000's..

And I think you're talking about buyers, couldn't well understand you

[deadtoyou 2,502]

Since 70's?

Um I don't think there was computer games in the 70's

And no option to buy ingame things till like the 2000's..

And I think you're talking about buyers, couldn't well understand you

That's right...there were almost no games then...

[Para_CW 19]

That's right...there were almost no games then...

The decent games at that time were not played on a computer.  They were very sophisticated board games.  There were a lot of them, but they're all gone now.  Computer games just kept getting better and better until the old style was completely obsolete.

[Para_CW 19]

I sort of agree. Somewhat.

 

Okay, I get what you're trying to say. Paying money to blow away your enemies isn't as fun as working your way up. I agree. I don't agree with many of your solutions.

 

1. Imagine very bad players at very high ranks. Somewhat sad, is it not, to imagine them dying so quickly against people who know what they're doing? Okay, now imagine all those noob players on your team. Still for this idea?

2. They've actually mentioned that in the Unity version, they'll probably add decals. So, yeah, it's coming.

3. Um...buying an item from the shop gives it to you instantly. The only things you have to wait for are microupgrades, and you can already pay crystals to speed those up.

4. Tanki isn't big on adding shiny new game-changing features. This would be useless.

5. NO. That's a good way to anger your entire community of generalissimos.

6. If they really do add stats (like they said they would in the New Years video) then I suppose each player would have to have their own page or something. But I imagine few people would actually pay for a full blown webpage for themselves (though I bet a clan might).

I was just throwing out ideas to show that it can be done.  I'm sure there are other ways to avoid selling power.

[Maf 32,356]

If the ability to buy crystals is to be removed, then the game is going to become a lot more fair as everything will be re-worked so that all players will be in equal conditions and only skill will be the deciding factor. Seems like the perfect Tanki Online that we're all dreaming of, right? Right, but one thing you didn't take into account, as deadtoyou mentioned, is the fact that this is a free to play game, meaning that ALL of the company's income comes from buyers, so removing the option to buy removes their income. The only way to compensate for that is to force players to pay for their account in the beginning and basically buy the game to play it, just like most console games like CoD/GTA/Fifa etc.

 

There are only four ways where this can go:

• You buy crystals as they are now and upgrade your equipment to play comfortably
• You don't buy crystals and suffer when buyers enter the opposing team
• The option to buy is removed and you buy the account from the beginning
• You don't play the game at all.

You choose.

[Mr.SV.ENS 738]

If the ability to buy crystals is to be removed, then the game is going to become a lot more fair as everything will be re-worked so that all players will be in equal conditions and only skill will be the deciding factor. Seems like the perfect Tanki Online that we're all dreaming of, right? Right, but one thing you didn't take into account, as deadtoyou mentioned, is the fact that this is a free to play game, meaning that ALL of the company's income comes from buyers, so removing the option to buy removes their income. The only way to compensate for that is to force players to pay for their account in the beginning and basically buy the game to play it, just like most console games like CoD/GTA/Fifa etc.

 

There are only four ways where this can go:

 

• You buy crystals as they are now and upgrade your equipment to play comfortably
• You don't buy crystals and suffer when buyers enter the opposing team
• The option to buy is removed and you buy the account from the beginning
• You don't play the game at all.

You choose.

Mate don't let hazel see this post

[Maf 32,356]

Mate don't let hazel see this post

It's true. Not because Alternativa is obsessed with money, but because that's just how all MMOs and other free online services work. You can use something for free, but it has limited functions and only the basic features are accessible, but by investing real money you unlock everything else. In that way Tanki Online is actually quite generous to free users are there isn't a single item that you HAVE to invest real money in to buy. You can buy everything in the game but without buying crystals for money you will have to play a lot of long battles to get the crystals you need. So you currently it's a choice between playing for hours and hours to get more crystals from the game or spending real money to save time and effort.

[Holyman_Tanki 40]

 

By refusing to spend real money to buy my way to success, I get to find out if I have real skill because I only use what the game freely gives me and my equipment is no better than anyone else's.  Whatever victories I have, I know I have earned them.  It is the most important experience anyone can have in a game.

 

That's a thoughtful and eloquent post Para_CW.

 

I wonder though if you are over-projecting your own priorities onto every other player..?

 

I too have been playing games since the 1970's (though wasn't until 1981 that I got my first Atari console...), and it has been a primary pasttime ever since.

 

But the "most important experience" *I* can have in a game... Is fun.

 

Personal enjoyment is my main motivator, not testing my skill or aptitude with a given game.

 

Age has dulled my reflexes and hand-to-eye coordination; and fatherhood and professional responsibilities limits the amount of time I have available to play games. I like games that I can dip in and out of, and I particularly like games where my skill deficiencies don't reduce me to mere cannon fodder.

 

Testing and developing your personal skill-set is *YOUR* most important priority when you play a Game: that's fine and commendable.

 

But you shouldn't assume that everyone else shares your priorities.

 

Just sayin'...

 

:unsure:

[r_LORD_GOD0 0]

how is opex going to grt paid if he dont sell crys 

[Para_CW 19]

If the ability to buy crystals is to be removed, then the game is going to become a lot more fair as everything will be re-worked so that all players will be in equal conditions and only skill will be the deciding factor. Seems like the perfect Tanki Online that we're all dreaming of, right? Right, but one thing you didn't take into account, as deadtoyou mentioned, is the fact that this is a free to play game, meaning that ALL of the company's income comes from buyers, so removing the option to buy removes their income. The only way to compensate for that is to force players to pay for their account in the beginning and basically buy the game to play it, just like most console games like CoD/GTA/Fifa etc.

 

There are only four ways where this can go:

• You buy crystals as they are now and upgrade your equipment to play comfortably
• You don't buy crystals and suffer when buyers enter the opposing team
• The option to buy is removed and you buy the account from the beginning
• You don't play the game at all.

You choose.

You are offering a false choice.  I have listed possible alternatives.  Basically, a game like this should sell convenience instead of power.  A lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around this idea, which is why I went to such great lengths to explain it.  It seems like there is no choice but to sell power, but that's not true.  I have played games where this was avoided and they were quite successful.  The current path will always limit the growth of the game and dev income from it by limiting the number of players.  What Tanki has now is a P.v.P. game where you buy your way to success.  It is a beautifully constructed game that is a blast to play, but it becomes more and more broken as you climb in levels.  All games that sell power have this flaw.

 

It's important to find alternatives and do something different.  It's not easy, but business never is.

[Para_CW 19]

That's a thoughtful and eloquent post Para_CW.

 

I wonder though if you are over-projecting your own priorities onto every other player..?

 

I too have been playing games since the 1970's (though wasn't until 1981 that I got my first Atari console...), and it has been a primary pasttime ever since.

 

But the "most important experience" *I* can have in a game... Is fun.

 

Personal enjoyment is my main motivator, not testing my skill or aptitude with a given game.

 

Age has dulled my reflexes and hand-to-eye coordination; and fatherhood and professional responsibilities limits the amount of time I have available to play games. I like games that I can dip in and out of, and I particularly like games where my skill deficiencies don't reduce me to mere cannon fodder.

 

Testing and developing your personal skill-set is *YOUR* most important priority when you play a Game: that's fine and commendable.

 

But you shouldn't assume that everyone else shares your priorities.

 

Just sayin'...

 

:unsure:

Thanks for your reply.  I have many of the same limitations.  Perhaps we do get different things out of the game.  I would never presume to know your mind.  I do agree that fun is a major component, but I argue that fairness is a necessary component of fun.

[deadtoyou 2,502]

I think that this topic is pointless now...

[Para_CW 19]

It's true. Not because Alternativa is obsessed with money, but because that's just how all MMOs and other free online services work. You can use something for free, but it has limited functions and only the basic features are accessible, but by investing real money you unlock everything else. In that way Tanki Online is actually quite generous to free users are there isn't a single item that you HAVE to invest real money in to buy. You can buy everything in the game but without buying crystals for money you will have to play a lot of long battles to get the crystals you need. So you currently it's a choice between playing for hours and hours to get more crystals from the game or spending real money to save time and effort.

I understand the need to make money and the limitations that have to be imposed on free players.  -Just don't sell power.-

 

Everyone does it the same way Tanki does and the result is always the same.  The game becomes mildly popular and develops a core of devoted players, but never really takes off and becomes a huge hit.  Selling power builds a flaw into the system that cannot be overcome except by its removal.

 

Business is hard and great success only comes to those who solve the hard problems.  And this is one of them.

[Para_CW 19]

To put this in strictly business terms, the money that Tanki spends on its free players are essentially dollars spent on marketing and advertising.  It is a perfectly ordinary aspect o business to spend money on people who will very likely never personally contribute a single dollar to the business.  It is  absolutely vital to spend this money.  No marketing + no advertising = no growth.  It's a cost of doing business and you ignore it at your peril.

 

Advertising and marketing can work against you if you're not careful and this is the problem with free players.  If they come away with the message that they're not valued, that's the message they'll spread.  So a business has to be very careful in shaping what message their free players are taking from the game because this will affect the game's overall popularity.  For any game that sells power, the message for free players is this:  "Don't get too comfortable.  You're not going to be around very long.  It's OK at the noob levels, but you can't compete with paying players."

 

Notice that no one is saying that the business doesn't have the right to make money, and that free players deserve more, but if they leave, they're not your free player anymore and you not only lose the advertising and marketing that they bring, but they're going away with a message you didn't want to send.  Your advertising is working against you.  That's why it's so important to get creative and find another way.

[Athena369 265]

To put this in strictly business terms, the money that Tanki spends on its free players are essentially dollars spent on marketing and advertising.  It is a perfectly ordinary aspect o business to spend money on people who will very likely never personally contribute a single dollar to the business.  It is  absolutely vital to spend this money.  No marketing + no advertising = no growth.  It's a cost of doing business and you ignore it at your peril.

 

Advertising and marketing can work against you if you're not careful and this is the problem with free players.  If they come away with the message that they're not valued, that's the message they'll spread.  So a business has to be very careful in shaping what message their free players are taking from the game because this will affect the game's overall popularity.  For any game that sells power, the message for free players is this:  "Don't get too comfortable.  You're not going to be around very long.  It's OK at the noob levels, but you can't compete with paying players."

 

Notice that no one is saying that the business doesn't have the right to make money, and that free players deserve more, but if they leave, they're not your free player anymore and you not only lose the advertising and marketing that they bring, but they're going away with a message you didn't want to send.  Your advertising is working against you.  That's why it's so important to get creative and find another way.

No you have got it all wrong. Its NOT ok at lower ranks and is MORE THAN OK at higher ranks. Though it's somewhat tough to compete with buyers at lower ranks ( say from private to brigadier) at higher ranks this is a too easy problem to be dealt with. Since the only thing you have to do is buying a pro battles pass and join a highly enjoyable XP battle (almost the entire RU1 is filled with them) or a regular battle which has drugs and micro upgrades turned off.( every xp battle comes with drugs and mu s turned off ). Believe me it's really really worth the wait. My advice? Keep playing and never give up though how much challenging it looks like till you get on with it.

[Maf 32,356]

I understand the need to make money and the limitations that have to be imposed on free players.  -Just don't sell power.-

So if not by selling crystals, how do you suggest they make a profit? Allowing adverts on their website is lame and just selling premium accounts (if those are to be added) seems not enough.

[Dr.Urbi 657]

I agree with pretty much all the things you pointed out. However, ever since smart cooldowns came to Tanki Online, the game became way more balanced and fair to me.

I'm a small buyer myself aswell, spent 25€ so far on this game. If I'm honest, I could easily be competitive without spending any money whatsoever. I have 3 M3 turrets, 2 M3 hulls and 3 M2 turrets, also a bunch of good protective paints. I'm playing this game for 3.5 years so far and the game was most balanced when I first started playing, then it slowly began being more and more unfair. It is quite balanced at the momment, but the old times were the best times I ever spent in this game.

[Para_CW 19]

I agree with pretty much all the things you pointed out. However, ever since smart cooldowns came to Tanki Online, the game became way more balanced and fair to me.

I'm a small buyer myself aswell, spent 25€ so far on this game. If I'm honest, I could easily be competitive without spending any money whatsoever. I have 3 M3 turrets, 2 M3 hulls and 3 M2 turrets, also a bunch of good protective paints. I'm playing this game for 3.5 years so far and the game was most balanced when I first started playing, then it slowly began being more and more unfair. It is quite balanced at the momment, but the old times were the best times I ever spent in this game.

 

I haven't been playing that long myself.  Only a few months.  I think it's good that you're a paying player.

 

I get the impression that people think I'm complaining, but I'm not.  Ultimately, the quality of the game is not my problem.  If I don't like it I always have the option to move on.  I'm just pointing out an area that I think needs attention because I really like the game.

 

Most game developers don't seem to understand why free play caught on and how to take full advantage of it.  All they see is an expense that they'd rather not have.  In fact, a lot of companies have trouble with the concept of advertising because it costs a lot of money and the results aren't especially tangible.  Speaking from direct experience, it's hard to know how useful your advertising and marketing really are.  It is very necessary though.  It allowed me to stay in business in an industry with a 99.5% failure rate over ten years.  (Construction.)

 

And that's exactly what free players are.  Dollars spent on advertising.  The better their experience, the more effective those advertising dollars are for your business.  The completely understandable attitude of "if you don't like it, shove off," is perfectly understandable, but also a complete waste of that money.  Unhappy free players means that the money you put towards that advertising, (supporting free players) isn't going to yield a poor return on that investment.

 

The question these business owners need to be asking themselves is "How do I give the free players the very best experience possible while still making money?"  The better they are at answering that hard question, the more successful they will be.  Since selling power generally degrades the free player experience and somewhat defeats the whole point of having free players in the first place, it's something to be avoided if at all possible.

[Rohrmeister 1,536]

[on power]

 

So how do you sell stuff when you don't sell power?  You sell convenience.

 

1.  Sell experience:  This is convenience, not power, because a person moving faster through the ranks doesn't affect those around him/her.

2.  Sell individuality:  Bling for tanks.  Many free to play games sell customizable skins.  They don't affect game play and help players stand out in a crowd.

3.  Sell reduced waiting times for stuff that's bought.

4.  Sell early access to new features.

5.  Sell access to multiple turrets and hulls past M1.  (Free players can only afford to upgrade one hull and one turret past M1.)

6.  Sell notability:  A player who pays can have their own Tanki web page.

 

I'm sure there are other things that can be found that will increase the coffers without selling power.  it takes some creativity, but it's doable.  Just don't sell power.

 

Hi there,

I think your post is a good one, but I do not agree to the measures you suggest.

I answer them point by point:

1.  Sell experience:  This is convenience, not power, because a person moving faster through the ranks doesn't affect those around him/her.

-> It is not funny if you are a mid ranked player, and some non skilled experiance purchasing people enter your team. And they will come because they may not enter lower ranked batltes any more.

 

2.  Sell individuality:  Bling for tanks.  Many free to play games sell customizable skins.  They don't affect game play and help players stand out in a crowd.

-> very good idea. I also like customizable skinns and paints. I would leave the basic "pattern" so the protection is recognizable, but you can change the basic color tones and the "pattern color".

 

3.  Sell reduced waiting times for stuff that's bought.

-> overpowers weaker players. You are selling power.

 

4.  Sell early access to new features.

-> cant judge that.

 

5.  Sell access to multiple turrets and hulls past M1.  (Free players can only afford to upgrade one hull and one turret past M1.)

-> Your assumption is not correct. I am a free player until today and right now I have 2x M1 weapons, 2x M2 weapons, 1x M1 tank, 1x M2 tank. And 40k crystals in spare to get M2 wasp soon. Game time 4 months. I know some that have eaven more then I do.

But soon I will spend some money - just to support tanki.

 

6.  Sell notability:  A player who pays can have their own Tanki web page.

-> cant judge that.

 

So I also would prefer if tanki sells no power. But we would need some more crispy things to sell instead.

[deadmanrising 715]

Removing the option to buy crystals wouldn't even see this game make any revenue, your probably arguing the exact same scenrio of what the majority of games already have, selling experience, and these other things is also pointless, it would take no effort to rank up and so on, that's why they were removed in the first place, where as buyers have power, but you need skill as well, you don't always have to suffer to big buyers with m4's, with skill and a good team you can still win, none of your ideas would help the game in any way

[Rad-Powered 1,694]

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately the community won't agree, and this page will probably get closed, because thats how the administrative team solve problems.  :angry: