Let’s discuss the adjusted parameters for Railgun, Smoky and Shaft

[Uliuliu 637]

İf anyone spoil your favorite toy, you may get angry. This is so normal.

Just wait a bit. Mods will change this 10 more times this year cause they dont really know what they want.

[RustyNail 1,538]

 

I strongly believe that reducing rail and smokey's impact has nothing to do with fixing the "flip" issue. If it did why not reduce that impact of hammer as well, it flips more tanks then smokey did. Also the problem isn't with rail and smokey's impact it was with the new targeting of the turrets. Instead of fixing the impact effect on the turrets they chose the lazy way out and simply nerf the guns. They will never tell us the real reason but I'm sure we will find out someday, after some more update and re-balances.

 

By the way, I wonder what effect this is having one the players of their beloved Star Series. Real smart timing to change the 2 guns used over at SLTV just as the new season is starting.  I wonder if this is the real reason. Here is what I think happened.

• they didn't want players flipping over and having to self destruct all the time. Doesn't look very good, to the audience, when the "stars" of tanki have to keep self destructing. Bad publicity and kinda boring to watch.
• they didn't have enough time to re-program the turrets targeting subroutine, to remove or reduce the effects of getting hit (impact)
• the quickest way to fix it is to reduce the impact force on the 2 guns used. It only takes a minute or 2 to change some values in a configuration file.

 

You are probably right, plus the chance to "promote" the two new turrets (hammer and vulkan). This is a most dissappointing strategy on behalf of Tanki.

I'm not sure about the smoky because I don't use it much but railgun, well now it shoots hollow. As if the shot turned to smoke. As if my M3 turned to M2.

My pile of complains start to add up and soon it will become an obstacle for playing.

[prem_sarup 2]

Exactly what you should have done prior to update...ADAPT!

true :) darrex and swiftsmoky are right ... ran out of +1.

devs are just doing this to make the new guns look better i guess...

the only reason i switched from thunder to smoky was because off its knockback.

if this is the way smoky is gonna be then i want a refund of my crystals. :(

[prem_sarup 2]

the only advantage smoky had was its knockback.

all of this started because of that stupid AUTO AIM UPDATE. remove that devs

[prem_sarup 2]

as it is smoky and railgun have the most number of defensive paints ..

if you guys are scared to play against a rail or smoky then just quit..

and DEVS stop OP a weapon then nerfing it again and OP ing it again and so on.. your just wasting our crystals( if you want just ask evrybody to buy CRYSTALS or make it compulsory)

[jt602 0]

i dont like the update 1.parkour just got alot harder.2.with smoky that was kinda part of the gun is  the knocback i dont think you should ad that to the game

:huh:

 

[xXx.RazoR.xXx 543]

Just wait a bit. Mods will change this 10 more times this year cause they dont really know what they want.

you can't be more wrong :) they know what they want,and that's income (money)..gismos with full garage,like most of us have,aren't really the target here..it's simple..if they nerf one thing,switch to other,at least,that's what I do..users targeted with this kind of updates (balances),are low and medium ranked players who use only 1 main combo mosty (maybe 2) and they invest everything they have in it..if "balance" hits them (their preffered combos),then they have huge problems,and soultions are to buy crystalls,keep on furhter with nerfed combo (meaning lower income) or to quit game..there is no problem with balance,problem is how to get more income,and what's better way then nerf/buff equipment?..remember when rico got it last buff?..it was OP,and everybody wanted to have it..some of players bought crystalls,to purchase it,I'm quite sure ;) and this will be happening a lot in the future..trust me..

[SkywardSwordMaster 13]

Okay, sure, its cool and all. I like this update. It bothered me sometimes, because I use hornet, but I honestly couldn't care less if I flip other tanks. So I guess its good. What I DO want to change is the HAMMER turret. That thing knocks you over so easily, its absurd. And I know thats one of the aspects of the gun, but I mean, I'm constantly self destructing and losing score because some hammer, whether a troller on my team or someone who didn't feel like finishing me off on the other team, flipped me and left me there. So I would appreciate it if you toned down the hammers flipping power too.

[RustyNail 1,538]

Hey, Tanki....

 

[TohsakaRin 38]

 

Hey, Tanki....

 

 

Legitimately listening to the players  :lol:

[RustyNail 1,538]

Okay, sure, its cool and all. I like this update. It bothered me sometimes, because I use hornet, but I honestly couldn't care less if I flip other tanks. So I guess its good. What I DO want to change is the HAMMER turret. That thing knocks you over so easily, its absurd. And I know thats one of the aspects of the gun, but I mean, I'm constantly self destructing and losing score because some hammer, whether a troller on my team or someone who didn't feel like finishing me off on the other team, flipped me and left me there. So I would appreciate it if you toned down the hammers flipping power too.

Why I down-voted you.

Because it is wrong to consider only your own interests.

You must have heard the saying "divide and conquer",

That's what Tanki does to us.

One time it nerfs a certain combo,

another time it nurfs another..

But always it nerfs, always reduces our investments in time, effort and crystals.

So, in a way what favours you today, tommorrow will not.

So don't stand for this tactic, it's against your own interests!

Do  you understand now?

[donut70 97]

(The message I recently sent to Hazel-Rah about this.)

 

 

WHY THE RAIL AND SMOKY STATS SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT ALONE

Intro: I do not believe that it is fair to reduce the impact force of the smoky at all, and I think a 10% impact reduction for rail would be better than the current 25% reduction if you really considered it to be overpowered.

Reasons-Rails: In CTFs rails usually have no other option but to flip a charging attacker, (or jolt the enemy tank into a wall) because their slow reload makes them ineffective against multiple opponents and after firing they either have to run or have stopped the opponent with their shot. If that is taken away from them then they become defenseless against the hornet-isida, (or other combos) that can absorb 1-2 hit(s) as it comes, then get all it's life back as it kills the rail, or the convoy that knows they can crush it as it reloads.

The over-arching problem with the change is that you*,(*or tanki in general) have, in essence, done this. (quote from another player's post)

"In order to restore - in a way - the increased ratio of flips over(to before the turret targeting update), Tanki nerfed railgun shot. Less flips over, true. But that is a weakening of railgun in general and considering the large amount of anti-railgun protection in existing paints this change also violated the "deal" for railgun. Well, guess what: I invested real money to railgun too." (end quote)

This player is pointing out that to debuff a stat on a specific gun is to debuff the gun itself, and that is unfair to the players who use it, and while it may only be a limited feature for the rail,(hence why a -10% impact might be fine), it is absolutely crucial to the gameplay of the smoky.

Reasons-Smoky: "Smoky users will have no chance if they cannot continue to deflect opponents to their previous potential." This is a summation of the problem I am about explain.
You may recall in a previous message I gave to you about Smoky, that the Smoky turret has not one single advantage against a Thunder except for it's impact. A thunder can do more damage, can hit the Smoky behind walls, and has a far better range advantage than the smoky previously*,(*before new physics I think) had against it.
It isn't just the Thunder turret either. Last time I checked, the Smoky, even with the crit chance, has the 2nd lowest dpm,(damage per 10 seconds is even worse) and only barely beats the long ranged railgun,( as it should due to the range difference and the first "already loaded" shot).
The ONE saving grace of the smoky is it's ability to stay alive longer than any other turret if and only if the user can perfectly plan, time, and aim his shots consecutively in the heat of battle to deflect the opponents more powerful hits. This has an interesting effect on it's usage.

(here is a quote from another player)
Smoky was absolutely the premier turret for the skilled player. Otherwise, it is underpowered, as attested by the rarity of its use in the game.
This update will almost certainly decrease the diversity of Tanki Online.
Further, I see the light format as the lifeblood of the game. It seems suicidal to nerf the only two turrets allowed in that format.(end qoute)

Smoky needs to reward skill. I honestly enjoy how hard it is to win with until you get highly skilled, but I need that reward, that potential for greatness, in my sights. (Otherwise I would just grab the ricochet with it's 3x higher DPM and massacre)
Before this update I could make a Viking-thunder miss if I perfectly timed my shot before he fired, and perfectly aimed it at the farthest point of his farthest corner to spin him the maximum amount, but this is not the case after the reduction. I tried to deflect Vikings and Hunters like I could before, but it is no longer possible. Please understand the importance of this, I cannot, through any amount of skill, turn an enemy Viking farther than I already did when hitting their extreme corner, and with the reduced impact that max spin no longer deflects them.

I played many battles yesterday to test this, and I came to the conclusion that I cannot protect myself as well anymore. The enemies can now correct for shots that used to be a certain deflection.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, the smoky cannot flip any equal M tank unless the tank is already unstable, flying up a ramp top, or completely airborne. Smart enemies need to realize this and take precautions to not be flipped in the aforementioned places. (see appendix)

Conclusion:
1st. It is a bad idea to reduce the impact of the smoky because it makes an already balanced and rare gun less useful to those who master it, and I was under the impression flipping was built into the railgun's abilities on purpose. (Especially because of the mentions of flipping tanks by hitting their turrets in the original post about the update, {it seemed to be encouraged}).
2nd. This "fix" tries to get rid of the problem/complaints indirectly and in actuality ends up creating more problems.

Honestly, I didn't hear any complaints about the flipping until this update.I think that if ALL the users of these 2 weapons contributed to the polling of this update, this update would not have come. For analogy, if 10,000 people buy a Rolls-Royce car, and it runs great, they say nothing, it's what they expected, but if just one person manages to get a bad Rolls-Royce they are going to raise hell about it being a problem that someone needs to pay for. I think the complaints came mostly from those who didn't know how not to be flipped.(see appendix)

If flipping too much actually is a problem then there are other ways you might think about, (or suggest to whoever gives the orders)to fix it.

 

HOW TO FIX/REDUCE THE FLIPPING
Solution #1 (main suggestion)
If impact against turrets was the problem, why not change that? Why take impact from the impact guns? Couldn't the turret sides be sloped, at least mathematically? With a slope, the impact force will mostly be vectored down. It will not tend to flip, unless you are in the air or otherwise unstable. This will allow the all important corner shot to be left alone, while still reducing the flips and allowing damaging shots to be made on the turret.

Solution #2
You could add a 6th supply. It could be on any key from 6-9 to leave room if you ever decide to add more supplies.
The supply would be a non-damaging impact/concussion mine that can only be used when upside down and would take 4-8 seconds, (your beta testers could learn the right time) to activate. It could be made 1 of 2 different ways. First, you could have it's impact off-center and self-adjust for the weight of the hull to perfectly flip it back to it's tracks or, if the coding proves too difficult, you could have a centered high concussion blast that would throw the flipped tank in the air. The player would then use his turret recoil to right himself before he lands.
However, I still prefer the turret-impact-vectored-down fix rather than this one.

Sincerely, donut70

(Appendix)HOW A PLAYER CAN STOP HIMSELF FROM FLIPPING
1. not taking ramp tops at full speed to not be unstable.

failing that...
2. not letting themselves be hit on their side at a 90% angle.

failing that...
3.turning their agile light tank head on or away from the impact as the rail is glowing, (smoky CANNOT flip a stable tank on the ground).
failing that...
4.ramming their tank against something to help absorb the impact.
failing that...
5.firing towards the enemy when hit to instigate a barrel roll.
finally, failing all that...
6.If they cannot deal with the instability they can switch to a Hunter or Viking and learn to outmaneuver rather than outrun an enemy.

P.S. To prove I am not the only reasonable voice among the complainers I direct you to one of my friend's recent posts.
http://en.tankiforum...41033&p=4285819

Edited January 28, 2015 by donut70

[Uliuliu 637]

 

 

 

you can't be more wrong :) they know what they want,and that's income (money)..gismos with full garage,like most of us have,aren't really the target here..it's simple..if they nerf one thing,switch to other,at least,that's what I do..users targeted with this kind of updates (balances),are low and medium ranked players who use only 1 main combo mosty (maybe 2) and they invest everything they have in it..if "balance" hits them (their preffered combos),then they have huge problems,and soultions are to buy crystalls,keep on furhter with nerfed combo (meaning lower income) or to quit game..there is no problem with balance,problem is how to get more income,and what's better way then nerf/buff equipment?..remember when rico got it last buff?..it was OP,and everybody wanted to have it..some of players bought crystalls,to purchase it,I'm quite sure ;) and this will be happening a lot in the future..trust me..

 

Of course, i know what youre talking about. What i meant was devs dont know how to balance the game (or at least theyre trying to create such illusion) so they change the parameters quite often. That being said, if your favourite hull or turret gets nerfed, dont mind that, itll all be changed in no time :)

[eefschiet 17]

Not clear enough??

[tommybau 1,033]

lol, listening to players....

i just  -ed a nail to the wall and put my tank keys to it. rarely i go for a casual game here and here...

those updates killed my will to play and spend. the last really useful one was the smart cooldowns.

sorry for tarzan english.

[ELIZABETH1122 337]

Smoky used to be very under powered and very cheap.  It was a starting weapon and not taken very seriously, especially by me.  Then they modified it beyond expectation and belief.  It was  recently  and still is way overpowered and has far more kick that it once had.  Those who have it have one of the most cost effective weapons.  It is given on joining for free.  If playing with shaft would once dismiss it merely irritant and only attend to it after taking several other more damaging combinations out.   Only to for it to return sometime later itching like a gnat or midge.  Now it is in a different league altogether and not attended to, will be a downfall, particularly if not protected by specific paint or armor.  It was retained mainly by those with no or little funds and a few diehards.

 

In its current shape it more than disturbs aim but can prevent attempts hitting it at al just like Ricochet.  Considering its rate of steady fire it can deliver a large amount of weighty ordinance over a fairly short time.  A modified M2 or standard M3 version is quite devastating to an average M2 hull that might be mated to a stationary shaft..  For some longstanding players it is still a surprise when it starts thud, thud, thuding into ones side and one looks at the life line and sees it diminishing far faster than  ones memory thinks it ought.  I shall buy a protective paint at some stage to dampen it a little.  

 

It either needs a little bleed of power or a reduced rate of fire or massively increase its cost $$.    Like nearly all weapons it relies on auto aim heavily particularly at longer ranges.  On Long Bridges I was outsniped by one while using Shaft.  It was partially hidden yet without taking any effort in aiming on its part due to auto aim it could deflect my aim and score enough hits on me to knock me out and  exceed shaft as a sniper weapon.  In the past not only could it not have attained the range effectively it could not have shot over the to of the rock either so something else must have changed!  Rail gun is the most frequently used gun but Smokey is gaining in use at quite a rate, which is usually a sign that a weapon is overbalanced and under price or available at too low a rank.  People soon latch on to what is usefully cost effective,just like Rail gun! :rolleyes:   So the little modification it has recently had should leave its owners still feeling rather smug!

Edited January 28, 2015 by ELIZABETH1122

[RustyNail 1,538]

(The message I recently sent to Hazel-Rah about this.)

 

 

WHY THE RAIL AND SMOKY STATS SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT ALONE

 

Intro: I do not believe that it is fair to reduce the impact force of the smoky at all, and I think a 10% impact reduction for rail would be better than the current 25% reduction if you really considered it to be overpowered.

 

Reasons-Rails: In CTFs rails usually have no other option but to flip a charging attacker, (or jolt the enemy tank into a wall) because their slow reload makes them ineffective against multiple opponents and after firing they either have to run or have stopped the opponent with their shot. If that is taken away from them then they become defenseless against the hornet-isida, (or other combos) that can absorb 1-2 hit(s) as it comes, then get all it's life back as it kills the rail, or the convoy that knows they can crush it as it reloads.

 

The over-arching problem with the change is that you*,(*or tanki in general) have, in essence, done this. (quote from another player's post)

 

"In order to restore - in a way - the increased ratio of flips over(to before the turret targeting update), Tanki nerfed railgun shot. Less flips over, true. But that is a weakening of railgun in general and considering the large amount of anti-railgun protection in existing paints this change also violated the "deal" for railgun. Well, guess what: I invested real money to railgun too." (end quote)

 

This player is pointing out that to debuff a stat on a specific gun is to debuff the gun itself, and that is unfair to the players who use it, and while it may only be a limited feature for the rail,(hence why a -10% impact might be fine), it is absolutely crucial to the gameplay of the smoky.

 

Reasons-Smoky: "Smoky users will have no chance if they cannot continue to deflect opponents to their previous potential." This is a summation of the problem I am about explain.

You may recall in a previous message I gave to you about Smoky, that the Smoky turret has not one single advantage against a Thunder except for it's impact. A thunder can do more damage, can hit the Smoky behind walls, and has a far better range advantage than the smoky previously*,(*before new physics I think) had against it.

It isn't just the Thunder turret either. Last time I checked, the Smoky, even with the crit chance, has the 2nd lowest dpm,(damage per 10 seconds is even worse) and only barely beats the long ranged railgun,( as it should due to the range difference and the first "already loaded" shot).

The ONE saving grace of the smoky is it's ability to stay alive longer than any other turret if and only if the user can perfectly plan, time, and aim his shots consecutively in the heat of battle to deflect the opponents more powerful hits. This has an interesting effect on it's usage.

 

(here is a quote from another player)

Smoky was absolutely the premier turret for the skilled player. Otherwise, it is underpowered, as attested by the rarity of its use in the game.

This update will almost certainly decrease the diversity of Tanki Online.

Further, I see the light format as the lifeblood of the game. It seems suicidal to nerf the only two turrets allowed in that format.(end qoute)

 

Smoky needs to reward skill. I honestly enjoy how hard it is to win with until you get highly skilled, but I need that reward, that potential for greatness, in my sights. (Otherwise I would just grab the ricochet with it's 3x higher DPM and massacre)

Before this update I could make a Viking-thunder miss if I perfectly timed my shot before he fired, and perfectly aimed it at the farthest point of his farthest corner to spin him the maximum amount, but this is not the case after the reduction. I tried to deflect Vikings and Hunters like I could before, but it is no longer possible. Please understand the importance of this, I cannot, through any amount of skill, turn an enemy Viking farther than I already did when hitting their extreme corner, and with the reduced impact that max spin no longer deflects them.

 

I played many battles yesterday to test this, and I came to the conclusion that I cannot protect myself as well anymore. The enemies can now correct for shots that used to be a certain deflection.

 

Lastly, and probably most importantly, the smoky cannot flip any equal M tank unless the tank is already unstable, flying up a ramp top, or completely airborne. Smart enemies need to realize this and take precautions to not be flipped in the aforementioned places. (see appendix)

 

Conclusion:

1st. It is a bad idea to reduce the impact of the smoky because it makes an already balanced and rare gun less useful to those who master it, and I was under the impression flipping was built into the railgun's abilities on purpose. (Especially because of the mentions of flipping tanks by hitting their turrets in the original post about the update, {it seemed to be encouraged}).

2nd. This "fix" tries to get rid of the problem/complaints indirectly and in actuality ends up creating more problems.

 

Honestly, I didn't hear any complaints about the flipping until this update.I think that if ALL the users of these 2 weapons contributed to the polling of this update, this update would not have come. For analogy, if 10,000 people buy a Rolls-Royce car, and it runs great, they say nothing, it's what they expected, but if just one person manages to get a bad Rolls-Royce they are going to raise hell about it being a problem that someone needs to pay for. I think the complaints came mostly from those who didn't know how not to be flipped.(see appendix)

 

If flipping too much actually is a problem then there are other ways you might think about, (or suggest to whoever gives the orders)to fix it.

 

HOW TO FIX/REDUCE THE FLIPPING

Solution #1 (main suggestion)

If impact against turrets was the problem, why not change that? Why take impact from the impact guns? Couldn't the turret sides be sloped, at least mathematically? With a slope, the impact force will mostly be vectored down. It will not tend to flip, unless you are in the air or otherwise unstable. This will allow the all important corner shot to be left alone, while still reducing the flips and allowing damaging shots to be made on the turret.

 

Solution #2

You could add a 6th supply. It could be on any key from 6-9 to leave room if you ever decide to add more supplies.

The supply would be a non-damaging impact/concussion mine that can only be used when upside down and would take 4-8 seconds, (your beta testers could learn the right time) to activate. It could be made 1 of 2 different ways. First, you could have it's impact off-center and self-adjust for the weight of the hull to perfectly flip it back to it's tracks or, if the coding proves too difficult, you could have a centered high concussion blast that would throw the flipped tank in the air. The player would then use his turret recoil to right himself before he lands.

However, I still prefer the turret-impact-vectored-down fix rather than this one.

 

Sincerely, donut70

 

(Appendix)HOW A PLAYER CAN STOP HIMSELF FROM FLIPPING

1. not taking ramp tops at full speed to not be unstable.

failing that...

2. not letting themselves be hit on their side at a 90% angle.

failing that...

3.turning their agile light tank head on or away from the impact as the rail is glowing, (smoky CANNOT flip a stable tank on the ground).

failing that...

4.ramming their tank against something to help absorb the impact.

failing that...

5.firing towards the enemy when hit to instigate a barrel roll.

finally, failing all that...

6.If they cannot deal with the instability they can switch to a Hunter or Viking and learn to outmaneuver rather than outrun an enemy.

 

P.S. To prove I am not the only reasonable voice among the complainers I direct you to one of my friend's recent posts.

http://en.tankiforum...41033&p=4285819

+1

 

ps thanks for quoting

[r_Firingsniper0 1,215]

You devs call reduction a "readjustment"

[ELIZABETH1122 337]

You devs call reduction a "readjustment"

Perhaps Dev is not short for Developer but something from a hot place with forked tail and trident ha :lol:  :lol:  :D  :P  :P only yoking! :ph34r:

Edited January 28, 2015 by ELIZABETH1122

[Lord-of-the-Snipers 1,620]

Are you stupid? Are you just plain stupid? In fact, in high rank XP's, everyone already adapted to the new update, and learned not to flip. "I should be content with this reduction"? Who are you to choose what I think? This update ruined half StarSeries players. Oh the live streams will be a lot more funny now. Again, you blame your lack of skill on the update. You just suck so much that you flipped so much.

No, he 's not stupid.

 

Yes, to a certain extend you could adapt to this new auto-aim flip: there are ways to avoid flipping.

To make a long story short it 's a matter of experience. If you once learn the trick you can stay upright the

next time....in certain situations!

 

You can adapt whatever you want but shots at the side which were not always avoidable did flip you.

Only when moving you have a small chance to recover from such a shot. Standing still you 'd simply flip.

And a combined recoil of your own shot and an just earlier impacting shot could also flip you easily.

Even completely backwards. If you didn 't flip in this situation and pranced and recovered you 'd lost

so much time that you often also were doomed.

And the "don 't expose your side" story is correct in one versus one, and less plausible with more players

at each side: you simply can 't always avoid exposing your side.

Circular hulls are simply not introduced yet in Tanki Online.

 

You are mostly playing XP 's (Parma) if I 'm not mistaken, and in XP everybody has the same chance of flipping.

With or without the auto-aim update.

This was not the case in regular battles where other combo 's profitited from this sudden light hull weakness.

And let me be clear: you didn 't flip every minute like some wrote, but you certainly got flipped more.

 

As a sidenote I think that you especially had a huge benefit of this opportunity to flip tanks because you are

simply a XP-Pro.

So now instead of two shots, you could defeat your lesser opponents with just one flipping shot,

instead of the more common two shots.

If I 'm wrong about this, than plz. explain to me why flipped Tanks were so great?

 

And now all XP/BP players do mostly need two shots again:

I don 't see why that "ruined half Star Series players" as

you wrote. Care to explain?

 

 

edit: played with Smoky M1 and M2 and they are still doing well. Impact force is still very usable,

        and shooting opponents off-aim is also no problem.

        A nerf is never nice, but IMO it 's not half as bad as some claim.

       

But we do need a nerf on Hammer 's impact force.

Ok, after TO sold some more Hammers I guess...

Edited January 28, 2015 by Lord-of-the-Snipers

[Drago-Lord 6]

when the discount will be?it's so far from last discount and 2x fund(((

[Pingu-Ubuntu 0]

Problem solved.

Railgun disable and Enable the Thunder.

Hull: Dictator

Optional: Double Damage

-

Restore the railgun Impact Force and reduce / shorten reload time by half.

[Canadian_Eh 1,354]

I keep seeing the same arguments over and over. I sum it up simply.

• Yes the flipping was controllable
• yes it is better not to flip
• rail and smokey did not cause this issue, the turret update did 
• the turrets reaction to being hit is what caused this issue
• rail and smokey did not need to be nerfed to fix this
• Tanki developers tried to fix the issue by altering rail and smokey impact instead of fixing what really needed to be fixed
• Tank developers made the wrong decision and in the process angered a lot of players , again
• and lastly Tanki developers only care about attracting new naive players with money in their pocket and don't care anything for those of already here, so we are just wasting our words.

[Canadian_Eh 1,354]

I guess the Russians aren't happy either LOL. Makes me wonder who's feedback they where reading. Maybe they need to find a better decision maker. We keep blaming the developers when really we should be blaming the person in charge of making such stupid decisions.

 

[ali1999mt 0]