Countdown timer started incorrectly - based on kills rather than flags?

[cdfbrown 0]

As I understand it, the countdown timer is only supposed to start if one team is far ahead of the other depending on the format - Flags in CTF, points in CP and kills in DM/TDM. Today in Monte Carlo CTF, shortly after 17:00 UTC, with three other players (two on each team) the two minute coundown for the end of the match started due to our (red) team apparently being far behind. That would be normal except that the score was only 5-3. The score was soon narrowed to 5-4, where it stayed until the end of the match, but the countdown timer kept going. I noticed when the breakdown screen came up at the end of the game that the other team had far more kills than us and wonder if that might be what the score difference was being measured against, instead of the kills (I joined the battle late on so I didn't realise the kill difference before).

 

As you can see in the screenshot below, the blue team have a combined twenty-one kills to our zero but are only one flag ahead and yet the red countdown clock has been activated. This screenshot is from the end of the round.

 

 

 

 

 

I won't bother posting my own OS and browser version etc, as it's clearly not an issue effected by my system (nothing to do with speed or connectiveity or resolution or anything like that), though if you do feel you need them then I'm happy to oblige.

[jokersus.cava 1,503]

As I see from their scores, they were getting scores 10 times faster than you. Doesn't matter how fast they capture or how much flags they capture, it all depends on how fast they gain scores. If they kill you and get scores 10 times faster than you, the timer changes.

[cdfbrown 0]

I see. That seems odd to me because I would have thought the timer would be based on how much a team/individual was ahead of the other team/individuals based on the criteria for winning whichever game they're in (flags, points or kills) rather than on how fast they get kills, no matter the format and how close the actual game is - presumably this would have happened even if they were losing on flags?

 

Well if this is intentional then it's not a bug or a mistake. However I think that this should absolutely be changed to reflect the format of the game being played at the time. I guess this explains why I've been in CTF games with scores of 30-1 and had no countdown timer...

[jokersus.cava 1,503]

Think about the other team, even if you are winning 30-1 they still can capture flags and maybe even win you. If you are ahead them, that doesn't mean they can't beat you anymore.

Edited February 16, 2015 by jokersus.cava

[cdfbrown 0]

That's why time should also be taken into account. Whatever equation they use to work this out should be based on the difference in flags/points/kills and the amount of time left in the game.

 

Looking at your perfectly legitimate 'Think about the other team' argument I would also have to reply that this goes both ways. If people are managing to stay close or even ahead on Flags, despite heavy losses, why should they then be penalised? It might even be part of a team's strategy to go all out on the flag captures, knowing many of them will be killed in the attempt, just so that one person can get through, grab a flag and get it back to their base. I realise that it might not actually be as simple as that and the flag may pass through several people's hands on its way to being captured but you understand the point.

[Earth 1,091]

Player LatviesuTanks2013 has been warned. Reason: Insult/profanity

Edited February 16, 2015 by M4D_GENiUS

[jokersus.cava 1,503]

First of all, if a team is winning and the other team grows up their score faster than the winner team, it won't affect the timer. Secondly, to change the timet, the winning team needs to grow up their score 10 times faster than the other team, which is quite much. Imagine in a 10v10 battle, all players in the read team kill one tank and only one player in blue team kill one tank.

[cdfbrown 0]

I see what you're saying joker, but if the goal of the game is capturing Flags or Points then it shouldn't matter if one team has ten, twenty or even thirty times as many kills as the other, as long as both teams are close on FLAGS or POINTS. In a DM or TDM the current system obviously works fine, as kills are the object of the game. In any other format (leaving parkour out of it) kills should just be a means to an end (flag and point captures) and a way to help rank the players and sort out their share at the end - they shouldn't have any effect as to whether or not the game is close themselves.

 

It should be the case, in my view at least, that it can be mathmatically calculated (by the server/game) whether or not it's still possible for a team to win the round in the time they have left, by either kills, flag captures or points from point captures and holds, in DM/TDM, CTF and CP respectively. If it can't be done then the timer should be started to end the round. If it can be done - if both teams could still potentially win - then the clock should continue as normal. That would actually do away with the need for the countdown timer altogether, since as soon as we know only one team can win you may as well stop the game then and there, so perhaps it would be better if the timer came up two minutes before a team is going to reach this threshold to give them a chance to pull things back. It definitely shouldn't be the case, again in my view, that a team can be timed out for lack of kills in a CTF or CP match when they're otherwise doing all they need to do to keep the game alive.

 

There's more to tanki strategy than simply killing as much as you can (though that definitely doesn't hurt).

[jokersus.cava 1,503]

I see what you're saying joker, but if the goal of the game is capturing Flags or Points then it shouldn't matter if one team has ten, twenty or even thirty times as many kills as the other, as long as both teams are close on FLAGS or POINTS.

I think you misunderstood me, the timer doesn't change if a team has scored 10 times more than the other, it changes if the winner team is scoring 10 times faster than the other one. It's because if the winner team is dominating the battle and the loser team is inactive, there's no point of keeping the battle last for hours. You are partly right, but we need to think about the real life too. Maybe someone with a good score wants to get his/her crystals, but doesn't have time to wait the battle to finish. His team is already dominating the battle and the other team is inactive. Also, if the winner team starts closing the gap, the timer turns to normal, so I think it's quite well-thought.

[beaku 2,656]

I see what you're saying joker, but if the goal of the game is capturing Flags or Points then it shouldn't matter if one team has ten, twenty or even thirty times as many kills as the other, as long as both teams are close on FLAGS or POINTS. In a DM or TDM the current system obviously works fine, as kills are the object of the game. In any other format (leaving parkour out of it) kills should just be a means to an end (flag and point captures) and a way to help rank the players and sort out their share at the end - they shouldn't have any effect as to whether or not the game is close themselves.

 

It should be the case, in my view at least, that it can be mathmatically calculated (by the server/game) whether or not it's still possible for a team to win the round in the time they have left, by either kills, flag captures or points from point captures and holds, in DM/TDM, CTF and CP respectively. If it can't be done then the timer should be started to end the round. If it can be done - if both teams could still potentially win - then the clock should continue as normal. That would actually do away with the need for the countdown timer altogether, since as soon as we know only one team can win you may as well stop the game then and there, so perhaps it would be better if the timer came up two minutes before a team is going to reach this threshold to give them a chance to pull things back. It definitely shouldn't be the case, again in my view, that a team can be timed out for lack of kills in a CTF or CP match when they're otherwise doing all they need to do to keep the game alive.

 

There's more to tanki strategy than simply killing as much as you can (though that definitely doesn't hurt).

What if it is better to end the game faster. Even though it m might be possible for losing team to win, who is to say that it is probable??

[cdfbrown 0]

Don't get me wrong here, I'm in favour of having a countdown timer to shorten games that are clearly one sided. When I said that it the timer could be started when one team no longer has a possibility of winning, I was just being hypothetical with that one extreme example. Of course it would probably be better for the devs to pick a point when they think it's highly unlikely that the other team will come back, even if it's technically possible.

 

 

I think you misunderstood me, the timer doesn't change if a team has scored 10 times more than the other, it changes if the winner team is scoring 10 times faster than the other one. It's because if the winner team is dominating the battle and the loser team is inactive, there's no point of keeping the battle last for hours. You are partly right, but we need to think about the real life too. Maybe someone with a good score wants to get his/her crystals, but doesn't have time to wait the battle to finish. His team is already dominating the battle and the other team is inactive. Also, if the winner team starts closing the gap, the timer turns to normal, so I think it's quite well-thought.

I realise I said ten times more rather than ten times faster in my post; that was just a slip of the tongue due to me being tired, sorry. I do understand that you're saying it's ten times faster.

 

Perhaps I can rephrase what I said to make more sense. What I'm saying is that whether or not the timer is activated should not be down to anything other than the game score, which is different to the individual kill and capture scores. If one team is capturing flags in CTF ten times faster than the other team then the timer should activate. If they're scoring kills ten times faster but are only one flag ahead then the game should proceed as normal, since the 'faster scoring' team hasn't actually translated that into putting what is actually being played for - flag captures in this format - beyond doubt (either absolute or reasonable).

[jokersus.cava 1,503]

Don't get me wrong here, I'm in favour of having a countdown timer to shorten games that are clearly one sided. When I said that it the timer could be started when one team no longer has a possibility of winning, I was just being hypothetical with that one extreme example. Of course it would probably be better for the devs to pick a point when they think it's highly unlikely that the other team will come back, even if it's technically possible.

 

 

I realise I said ten times more rather than ten times faster in my post; that was just a slip of the tongue due to me being tired, sorry. I do understand that you're saying it's ten times faster.

 

Perhaps I can rephrase what I said to make more sense. What I'm saying is that whether or not the timer is activated should not be down to anything other than the game score, which is different to the individual kill and capture scores. If one team is capturing flags in CTF ten times faster than the other team then the timer should activate. If they're scoring kills ten times faster but are only one flag ahead then the game should proceed as normal, since the 'faster scoring' team hasn't actually translated that into putting what is actually being played for - flag captures in this format - beyond doubt (either absolute or reasonable).

In CTF, it's sometimes impossible. Imagine the blue team has scored 10 flags and they don't play anymore. Just some players kill random players. But the red team has scored 15 flags and they are really active, and scoring 10 times faster than the other team. The battle is in Dusseldorf map and 30 minutes left. To get the timer changed, the red team needs to capture 85 more flags, but it's almost impossible in such a big map. It'll probably last more than 30 minutes to finish its half, so what's the use of it? Scoring flags 10 times faster than the other team is not something easy as you think.

By way, what you say looks like a suggestion rather than a technical problem, so post it here:

http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showforum=182

P.S.: Soon, players will get crystals according to their individual scores and not their teams' scores.

[cdfbrown 0]

In CTF, it's sometimes impossible. Imagine the blue team has scored 10 flags and they don't play anymore. Just some players kill random players. But the red team has scored 15 flags and they are really active, and scoring 10 times faster than the other team. The battle is in Dusseldorf map and 30 minutes left. To get the timer changed, the red team needs to capture 85 more flags, but it's almost impossible in such a big map. It'll probably last more than 30 minutes to finish its half, so what's the use of it? Scoring flags 10 times faster than the other team is not something easy as you think.

By way, what you say looks like a suggestion rather than a technical problem, so post it here:

http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showforum=182

P.S.: Soon, players will get crystals according to their individual scores and not their teams' scores.

I don't think it would be too difficult to have the timer threshold change depending on the map and time limit, as well as how fast they're getting flags or points or kills. I'm not saying I could do it myself but it should be relatively simple for the proffessionals at Tanki, if that's the route they want to go down, so it's not as if it always has to be based around scoring ten times more than the other team. With that said, if players stay in a game and just try to kill people on your team, giving up on getting any more flags, then that's up to them - it's not like they're no longer playing - so there shouldn't be any issue with continuing, even though the dynamic of the battle will clearly have changed and some players may dislike that.

 

You're right that what started off as a perceived problem/bug has turned into a suggestion so I probably will post it in Ideas and Suggestions. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

 

If a mod wants to lock this now, there's nothing more to discuss here as far as the Problems and Solutions subforum is concerned.

[jokersus.cava 1,503]

I don't think it would be too difficult to have the timer threshold change depending on the map and time limit, as well as how fast they're getting flags or points or kills. I'm not saying I could do it myself but it should be relatively simple for the proffessionals at Tanki, if that's the route they want to go down, so it's not as if it always has to be based around scoring ten times more than the other team. With that said, if players stay in a game and just try to kill people on your team, giving up on getting any more flags, then that's up to them - it's not like they're no longer playing - so there shouldn't be any issue with continuing, even though the dynamic of the battle will clearly have changed and some players may dislike that.

 

You're right that what started off as a perceived problem/bug has turned into a suggestion so I probably will post it in Ideas and Suggestions. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

 

If a mod wants to lock this now, there's nothing more to discuss here as far as the Problems and Solutions subforum is concerned.

Good luck on getting it accepted.