Break me a map!

[ArgentHellion 41]

It's been three days since I began making my first, and probably my last map

for Tanki Online, because this has to be the worst mapmaking experience I had

so far. Be prepared to read a lot, since I have a lot to say, and therefore I will

be dividing my rant into sections so this initial post doesn't stretch far and wide.

 

Before I begin, let me state that I read most of the guidelines regarding

the software required to make maps, so I had the general idea what I

was getting myself into even before I started making my map.

 

So, the things needed to make maps properly for Tanki Online is

the Alternativa Editor, the Tank Testing Tool, and the object libraries.

First, let me begin by talking about Alternativa Editor, simply refered

to as AE further down the line.

 

 

Oddly enough, the last game I regularly made maps for was MTA:SA

(That stands for Multi Theft Auto: San Andreas), and AE feels and functions

exactly like a butchered version of that one. It starts to choke as soon as you

try to get a wider angle, or attempt to manipulate more than a dozen squares

of objects at once, but choking is not the problem, those patient enough can

manage it, the main problem is the stability, or lack there of.

 

AE is so unstable, it crashes on it's own even after I leave the room and

my computer goes in stand-by. It crashes when I work without saving

more than 15 minutes, when I get carried away on an inspiration burst, hell,

it even sometimes crashes during saving and corrupts the save file, fortunately

I always have spares. It takes 5 minutes to load the "1.100 objects library"

alone, and about 20 more minutes to load my map, meaning every time it

crashes, I have to wait for almost half an hour before I can continue to work

on my map. The issue is not with my machine, my PC chews up Crysis3 and

Skyrim on ultrahigh settings like breathmints after breakfast, and when AE 

chokes and freezes, even then the processor doesn't go over 20%

performance.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention the functionality crashes. Every once in a while,

when editing, the selection starts acting up. I am able to select a certain

group of objects, but when I try to move them using the mouse, it just

un-selects them. Other times the cursor simply doesn't appear, and that's

when you have to shut the editor down and start it up all over again...

 

 

 

The next section is about the Tank Testing Tool, refered as TTT further on...

 

 

Let me begin by saying that I spent considerable time looking for an English

version of the TTT, and I simply couldn't find one. Look, I understand this is

a Russian game, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't bother to make English

content as well. Even the versions that clearly stated "English version" in the

title were Russian, which leads me to believe that nobody actually cares. But

still, that's the launcher, so it can be skipped, but I'm also experiencing

problems with the TTT program itself.

 

Maybe it's outdated and probably incompatible with my system, but when

I start the program up, it loads the first default map and barely anything

works. All I can do is wander around the pre-made map and hit INSERT

to spawn the tank, then maybe drive it using the arrows, and that's about

it. Every attempt to test my map has failed, therefore the program lost

it's purpose. Fix it, and for the love of all, provide us with an English

version, the fact that my father used to speak Russian clearly doesn't

mean that I have to do the same...

 

 

 

Thankfully, I don't have a lot to say about libraries.

 

 

I downloaded several libraries, but I use strictly one (the 1.100 object library)

for my map, and here is the reason why. Every time the AE crashes, and

I already stated how often it crashes, I have to reload the library I'm using

and then reload the map I'm making, so if I were to include anything more

than a single library, it would take forever to load. Honestly, why couldn't

the libraries be included with the AE in the first place, even when I try to

manually move them into the AE folder, it still requires me to load them

from within the editor itself.

 

 

 

If the developers want volunteers like myself to make better maps so

players can have a better experience alltogether, they absolutely have

to fix the map making software, because in this current state, it is

unbearable to work with as soon as the map grows over 2MB in size.

No wonder most maps are so crammed and every map pretty much

feels the same, just a chaotic cluster of tanks battling out on maps

the size of a driving school polygon...

 

Personally I really got interested in this game, but if this is the way

those willing to contribute are being treated, then it is quite obvious

why the community is falling apart. It's not about the numbers, those

are invalid thanks to all the multi-accounts, what matters is quality,

and this game sadly seems to be lacking in that area...

Edited March 28, 2015 by ArgentHellion

[dilsharox 2,395]

wt seems to be the problem?

[ArgentHellion 41]

wt seems to be the problem?

 

Didn't you read the spoiler sections??

[Maf 32,300]

I'm pretty sure the developers have much more advanced software to use for making maps, while AE and TTT were just thrown at us as a fun toy to play around with without any serious intent. I don't want to give misleading information here, as I have zero experience with map making. Let's just wait for Hazel to reply - he's the map god around here :)

[ArgentHellion 41]

I'm pretty sure the developers have much more advanced software to use for making maps, while AE and TTT were just thrown at us as a fun toy to play around with without any serious intent. I don't want to give misleading information here, as I have zero experience with map making. Let's just wait for Hazel to reply - he's the map god around here :)

 

Thanks for the reply, I will sure wait for a more detailed responce, in the meantime I already

sent a complaint about this subject to the helpdesk, and just now I received a mail that it was

submitted into the system. I'm sincerely hoping there is more advanced software to make maps

than what I currently have, it would certainly improve my building experience, because at this

current moment, I'm struggling with the software every step of the way. But, I started this first

map and I will certainly finish it, even if it breaks me in the end, I refuse to give up on the idea

just because a piece of malfunctioning ones and zeroes decided to... well... malfunction...

 

PS EDIT: This is what my map-making process looks like now...

Step1.) Start AE

Step2.) Load library (5 minutes)

Step3.) Load map (20 minutes)

Step4.) If the map loaded "broken"... shut down AE and go back to step1.

Step5.) If the map loaded ok, work on it 5-20 minutes until something fails.

Step5a) Keep saving after every dozen elements added, and instantly create a copy of the save.

Step6.) Work on the map with crippled controls until it becomes impossible to work.

Step7.) Shut down AE and go back to step1.

 

StepX.) Roam the forum and maybe play a battle while waiting for the loadtimes...

Edited March 28, 2015 by ArgentHellion

[jazz20 1,181]

Keep up the good work though  ^_^

[Vikingsrallentando 3,058]

@ArgentHellion I've been making maps in AE/TTT for over two years now, and I don't think I've ever heard of or experienced that big of a issue with the software. I can relate to some of the problems but I'll break it down a bit briefly.

 

 

This may be a bit redundant so don't take it the wrong way, are you putting together a map that is tantamount to the maps in the game already? I'm guessing you can get really big with the MTA maps but there is a point when AE just cannot function with the amount of props used. For me, it happens when the file size exceeds around 5,000 KB, way more than the recommended size. Then it will usually crash.

 

It does not take me 5 minutes to load the 1.100 update props. Takes a minute and a half at most. I can't begin to troubleshoot why it takes that long to load or why the performance of the software is so low. Is the problem your operating system? These are hard programs to use. It took me a while before I could start producing maps efficiently. But never was it this bad for me. I think there programs that you have to do some self trouble shooting and have to ask help on too, but I don't know why It works that bad for you when I can have a map loaded in 3 minutes and be working on it.

 

AE does occasionally corrupt the files. It happens unfortunately.

 

There is an English TTT available here but only supports the 3rd library, which I would imagine loads faster.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the developers have much more advanced software to use for making maps, while AE and TTT were just thrown at us as a fun toy to play around with without any serious intent.

My interpretation of the program; Its easy to use, compared to all the other 3d software I look at. They would require extensive reading up on how to use with all the interfaces and such. AE is simple. 3 different panes, 4 when you toggle the properties. In reality, yes, about the same number of areas in the editor as others, but without all the technical stuff because AE is made FOR Tanki. It bears the companies name, why make it as a company program and not use it in the everyday. Its been open on the screen in a v-log before.

 

Anyway, I don't understand why contributions are not welcome. The question for Hazel is why the rest of the developers wont get on board with new maps... I've had and still am having fun making maps as hobby, outside of the game, but my goal still is to get a map in the game for everyone to enjoy.

I'm curious about this MTA and your experience with that; perhaps we could share our own works/experiences and stuff via PM?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Vikingsrallentando

[dilsharox 2,395]

Didn't you read the spoiler sections??

i just did & idk wts wrong with ut

[ArgentHellion 41]

Thanks for the detailed responce Vikingsrall   :)

I honestly couldn't tell you why am I having such problems with the software, maybe

the issue is that those I downloaded are simply older versions that are less stable,

the only valid links I could use were listed here in the "IDEAS FOR MAPS" topic, so

I maybe I just need the latest versions. I would greately appreciate if you could post

the links to the latest AE, TTT and a single most appropriate library to use, that would

get me back on track... Or maybe pack all the software you personally have into a single

ZIP file and send me via Skype or Viber, that would be even better since it would definitely

minimize the chance of the software misbehaving...

 

I don't make maps to earn revenue or gain prestige, I enjoy creating something that other

people would enjoy using and I derive much pleasure when I hear someone saying that

they like my creations. If I manage to resolve this software issue, I would definitely make

more maps for Tanki Online, but for the moment, I will torture myself by finishing the

current map with a crippled editor, although it is most likely that I will scrap this map

and try to make another one from scratch...

 

Not a single manual or person has ever taught me how to use anything on the computer,

I learned everything I know all by myself and through extensive trial and error, and I can

safely say that AE is one of the simplest 3d editors, even simpler than the one MTA has,

which is definitely a convenience for me, since I mastered that one ages ago...

 

Regarding MTA, I used to make dozens of maps for several servers, and most of them

were quite often played because of how coherent my maps tend to be, I ussually avoid

fusing elements that don't go together well in reality and keep the maps grounded rather

than throwing elements all over the place. I tend to make my maps immersive and detailed,

personally I despise plain maps obviously floating in the sky which you can fall off of. It's

the reason why sometimes it takes me up to a full week of commited work to get a single

map done. Also, I was the only map designer who created co-operative MTA maps, where

a single player cannot go through all the checkpoints and win the game without somebody

else constantly being with him to lend him a helping hand. Those maps were differently

received, while some players loved the co-op ideas, others more individualistic hated it.

Sadly, that was years ago, since then I have moved on, some of those servers have

dissipated while others are maybe still around, I lost interest about 4 years ago when

I had to abandon my college and come back home to take over the family business.

Also, I wasn't as mature then as I am today, nowadays I keep a backup of everything

I do, but back then, I just used to scrap any leftovers once a certain project is done...

 

CURRENT EDITOR PERFORMANCE:

 

 

I actually used a stopwatch to time how long it takes for me to start working on AE.

Time it takes to load the 1.100 object library = 2 minutes and 37 seconds 

Time it takes to load my map =18 minutes and 14 seconds

Time it takes to save my map = 16 seconds

Max CPU usage while loading/saving = 23% (with minor background programs

always running)

 

Current map size in 1.x = Cannot save, crashes the editor

Current map size in 3.x = 2.87 MB

 

 

Edited March 29, 2015 by ArgentHellion

[Opex-Rah 5,375]

I'm pretty sure the developers have much more advanced software to use for making maps, while AE and TTT were just thrown at us as a fun toy to play around with without any serious intent. I don't want to give misleading information here, as I have zero experience with map making. Let's just wait for Hazel to reply - he's the map god around here :)

Nope, I use pretty much the same tools.

 

Only difference is TTT. I am not using one, since I can easily upload map to stage server and play it around.

 

AE and TTT was never meant to work this long and should be replaced long ago. AE is using old AlternativaEngine which can not support hardware acceleration. As TS said the software is in horrible state. Crashes and glitches are its normal working state. It was developed 5 years ago and wasn't ever updated.

 

On the other hand I might say TS is not committed enough to the cause :D

 

Previously I was working in WarCraft III World Builder and it was a bliss. AE is a nightmare, but yet every map in the game was changed and tweaked by me. You can just imagine how painful it was to work with Rio map for instance.

 

AE editor will most likely stay as it is. New maps will be brought in by Unity based editor but this will be whole another story.

[Yisroel.Rabin 16,224]

I'm pretty sure the developers have much more advanced software to use for making maps, while AE and TTT were just thrown at us as a fun toy to play around with without any serious intent. I don't want to give misleading information here, as I have zero experience with map making. Let's just wait for Hazel to reply - he's the map god around here :)

Devs use AE. But they don't have to use TTT, they have test server. Which is as you probably know, more accurate.

[I.WalkAlone 548]

Devs use AE. But they don't have to use TTT, they have test server. Which is as you probably know, more accurate.

Pointless post as Hazel-Rah has already said the same above.

Edited April 8, 2015 by I.WalkAlone

[Yisroel.Rabin 16,224]

Pointless post as Hazel-Rah has already said the same above.

I noticed that after I posted. So, yes I'm sorry. . .