Myths and rumours answered

[Schroedinger_Cat 38]

This part is not a secret.  Its quite normal.

Ummm... OK, but why TO does not write in its EULA that they can store chat logs? They actually wrote the opposite - that they cannot store them. The problem discussed here is not that they store chat logs - the problem is that they are violating their own EULA this way. How can we trust that TO obeys other points of the EULA if we know they violate one? Users read the EULA, they learn that TO cannot store chat logs and then it turnes out that they actually do it. It is sad, but it means that all users, who got banned  based on the stored chat logs and not screenshots only, shall be unbanned and satisfied for each day of their ban (let me make it clear - I am not talking about myself here). However it is morally wrong, that is how LAW must work. just like in a court - a judge cannot imprison a criminal based on illegal evidence. Otherwise judges do not need evidence at all and we end up with a dictatorship, not state of law.

 

As a company we have to keep logs of just about everything over a set period of time.  Just in case.  (...) And yes, those even include chat logs to a certain extent.

Is it required by law? If so, why TO does not write in its EULA that they are allowed to store chat logs? The EULA is very clear about it. You are writing about everything else, but not EULA. It's like saying that robbers are bad guys, they must be punished for what they have done, but not mentioning that the Criminal Code is not saying anything about punishing robbers. You are right - but only about the principles. Law is law and must be obeyed!

 

 

(...) not even moderators can get access to those.

I was told (by one of moderators), that moderators have access to chat logs.

 

Damn_Slow, you are talking about general stuff, but you have not referred to my post anywhere.

 

What you read in the EULA is more of a disclaimer about how tankionline is not obligated to store any of those messages on the tankionline website and game servers and are under no obligation whatsoever to produce records of chat messages to anyone.

11. Chatting Rules

3. The Company doesn’t store chat messages on its servers. (...)

There is a huge differnce between a clear statement made in the EULA and what you wrote. The EULA is extremely clear here.

 

11. Chatting Rules

3. (...) Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window.

Storing chat logs in any way is against the EULA. And I am not interested about your reasons for storing chat logs - it is against the current EULA, no matter what the reasons are. If you need to store chat logs, you must change the EULA first. And what about violating the EULA for... How long? Months? Years? How can you compensate it to the users?

 

What you read in the EULA is more of a disclaimer about how tankionline is not obligated to store any of those messages on the tankionline website and game servers and are under no obligation whatsoever to produce records of chat messages to anyone.

Since storing chat logs is against EULA, the remaining part of point 11.3. of the EULA refers to any content other than chat messages. This part can be considered as a "disclaimer". But not the first 2 sentences. They are very clear about what TO is not allowed to do under any circumstances.

[beaku 2,656]

I don't agree with you on the point 'Contents' refers to everything else except the chat. It does not say so nor is it implied in any way. They first part of 11.3 of EULA i.e. " The Company doesn’t store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window. " is written with the implication that under no circumstances can any user ask the Company to produce logs of chat, forum messages, etc because the Company does not offer any such services. However, even if the company does decide to store some logs, either temporarily or otherwise for their own purposes, they still wouldn't be violating the EULA since it clearly states that, "Content stored on the Company’s servers is not meant for permanent or temporary archival purposes. Therefore Tanki Online may but is not obliged to maintain backup copies of any material posted on the Internet Site."

The said material obviously does include chats and forum messages since the 11.1 clearly states that messages shared aren't private in nature.

So, to summarise:

1. Chats aren't archived under normal circumstances and you cannot ask the company to produce chat logs.

2. The Company, if it wishes, can however store backup copies but it's still not obligated to produce them.

3. The limit of backup per user is decided by the Company.

Hence, the company storing chats isn't agaisnt the EULA as you're claiming. It's not even Cotradicting. You should try and understand the implication of each sentence.

 

If, for the purpose of privacy, the company wanted to assure it's users, the EULA would have said, "The Company has no rights to store backup copies of chats and the chats are deleted as soon as they dissappear from the real time window" or something along those lines. However, this is the a privacy issues at all since the said chats aren't private in nature (11.1). Hope you understand the difference between what you're saying and what the EULA is implying.

Edited July 4, 2016 by beaku

[Schroedinger_Cat 38]

I don't agree with you on the point 'Contents' refers to everything else except the chat. It does not say so nor is it implied in any way. They first part of 11.3 of EULA i.e. " The Company doesn’t store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window. " is written with the implication that under no circumstances can any user ask the Company to produce logs of chat, forum messages, etc because the Company does not offer any such services. However, even if the company does decide to store some logs, either temporarily or otherwise for their own purposes, they still wouldn't be violating the EULA since it clearly states that, "Content stored on the Company’s servers is not meant for permanent or temporary archival purposes. Therefore Tanki Online may but is not obliged to maintain backup copies of any material posted on the Internet Site."

The said material obviously does include chats and forum messages since the 11.1 clearly states that messages shared aren't private in nature.

So, to summarise:

1. Chats aren't archived under normal circumstances and you cannot ask the company to produce chat logs.

2. The Company, if it wishes, can however store backup copies but it's still not obligated to produce them.

3. The limit of backup per user is decided by the Company.

Hence, the company storing chats isn't agaisnt the EULA as you're claiming. It's not even Cotradicting. You should try and understand the implication of each sentence.

Let us consider two possibilities:

1. The company doesn't store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window.

2. The company is allowed, but not obliged to store chat messages on its servers or elsewhere. Chat messages may be available to the Company even after they are gone from the chat window.

 

The first option is a declaration, that TO will not store chat messages under any circumstances. It also declares that they are gone forever when they disappear from the chat window.

 

The second option says that TO is allowed to store chat messages if they want to. It is also a warning ("we can see what you write to other users").

 

Can you see the difference?

 

Since the first option is used in EULA, the sentences following it cannot refer to chat logs, because chat logs are forbidden.Simple logic.

[A_R_A_K_E_L_Y_E_N 503]

11. Chatting Rules

1. (...)

2. (...)

3. The Company doesnt store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window. Content stored on the Company's servers is not meant for permanent or temporary archival purposes.

 

 

This is referring to the servers. As soon as the chat is removed from veiw on the top of chat it can no longer be accessed by users on the server

 

 

Therefore Tanki Online may but is not obliged to maintain backup copies of any material posted on the internet site. The Company reserves the right to impose a limit on the maximum storage capacity for each user.

 

this is specifically connected to chatting as the title of rules section strictly states. Therefore, when chat is written: Tanki Online may, but is not obliged, to store backup copies of the chat. How can it do that with out storing it on server? By moving it to the internet site.

 

Original image of rules posted by "the scientist's expiriment's name" (schroedingers cat?)

 

 

 

 

In my words:

The servers have no way to regenerate the chat.

If the Company decides, it can transfer the chat before its deleted to the internet site and store it there.

The company can not be demanded to give chat logs.

 

(IM expecting a perfect score on the SAT without essay)

Edited July 4, 2016 by A_R_A_K_E_L_Y_E_N

[Schroedinger_Cat 38]

This is referring to the servers. As soon as the chat is removed from veiw on the top of chat it can no longer be accessed by users on the server

Servers contain both types of data - available and unavailable for users. The secnod type is availabale only for the Company. The data must be stored somewhere. Of course you can store data on many "data carriers" (e.g. CDs), but even then you have to temporarily store the data on servers. The point 11.3. of EULA is not about where TO can store data or not - it is about storing chat messages at all, and it clearly says TO is not allowed to do it.

 

 

this is specifically connected to chatting as the title of rules section strictly states.

You are wrong. The point 11.1. of EULA says:

 

 

11. Chatting Rules

1. The forum, real-game interactive chat (“Chat”) and/or community services offered by Tanki Online (...)

 

Thus, the chapter 11 refers to both, chat and forum. Since storing chat logs is forbidden 2 first sentences of point 11.3., the remaining part of point 11.3. must refer to the forum. Which makes sense.

 

 

Tanki Online may, but is not obliged, to store backup copies of the chat.

Not chat, but any other content. Forum posts in this case.

 

 

How can it do that with out storing it on server? By moving it to the internet site.

And where is the Internet Site stored if not on the TO servers? Sever = hardware, Internet Site = software. Have you read the definitions at the top of the EULA?

Edited July 4, 2016 by Schroedinger_Cat

[A_R_A_K_E_L_Y_E_N 503]

In 11.1 it defined that the forum is included in chat but did not exclude the chat on the servers.

 

“Internet Site” shall mean the totality of all the Materials and web-resources located at the address http://tankionline.com and at all its sub-domains with address /en/, /de/, at the game servers with the addresses beginning with /battle-en, /battle-de, on the domain name http://tankionline.com with its game servers and other websites connected to it and accessible through links or other access paths and the services available through such sites which have been legally and officially recognized by the Company.

 

Here it stated that the servers are connected to the internet site, not comprised of them.

 

“Server’’ shall mean the hardware-software support of the Company used for the virtual interactive User interaction.

 

The physical "switchboard"

 

 

 

About "Thus, the chapter 11 refers to both, chat and forum. Since storing chat logs is forbidden 2 first sentences of point 11.3., the remaining part of point 11.3. must refer to the forum. Which makes sense."

This is a false assumption. It never ever says "storing chat logs is forbidden. It just says its not stored on server at all once its removed from our sight. Nothing forbids them from copying it to the internet site.

[beaku 2,656]

Read my post clearly, please. Where in EULA does it say that 'Content' does not mean Chat?! It doesn't! It can store chats but it doesn't compulsorily store chats! That's what the whole point is!

[Schroedinger_Cat 38]

In 11.1 it defined that the forum is included in chat but did not exclude the chat on the servers.

WHAT? O_O :blink: I am sorry to say that, but it seems you have problems with expressing your thoughts in english.

 

 

Here it stated that the servers are connected to the internet site, not comprised of them.

Once again I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Server = machine (a thing you can touch with your fingers) + software necessary to provide the TO services. Internet Site = all electronical resources, such as game client, main page, forum, etc. The Internet Site must be stored on machines (servers) and cannot store anything itself. Internet Site is not a machine. It's like "contents" and "book". Book is made of paper and contents are stored there. Book is tangible, contents are abstract. Same about Servers and internet Site.

 

This is a false assumption. It never ever says "storing chat logs is forbidden. It just says its not stored on server at all once its removed from our sight. Nothing forbids them from copying it to the internet site.

The EULA doesn't say that the chat messages are not available to the users only once they are gone from the chat window. It says that the chat messages become unavailable to anyone, including TO. TO disclaimed their rights (if they had any in the first place - it is a matter of law and I am not going to discuss it here) for recording chat messages, thus doing so is forbidden! Here is a simple analogy: imagine that your grandfather dies and you inherit a legacy from him. You can either accept or reject it. Once you reject it, you cannot say "hey, it belongs to me!" in the future. Do you understand it? TO said that they will never record any chat messages. Thus, they are not allowed to do so. They limited themselves!

 

(...)  copying it to the internet site.

 

I am sorry, but you have problems with both, writing and reading in english... Where is the Internet Site stored? On a boat? On a cow leather? Or on servers?

 

Read my post clearly, please.

I did. Did you read my post carefully? Did you read my "2 possibilites" example? Did you understand it?

 

Where in EULA does it say that 'Content' does not mean Chat?!

What is the point of talking about "chat messages storage", which was clearly forbidden in the previous sentence? There is none! Thus, the "content" means everything except from chat messages. There is no other option. If your interpretation was true, why would they write "we do not store chat messages and they are gone forever when disappear from chat window"? What you say does not make any sense.

 

A simple analogy. Imagine you are running a canteen. You write Rules for the cooks and customers. Among all other points, there is a section about fruit desserts.

 

11. Fruit desserts.

1. Our Canteen serves the following fruits and their preserves: apples, strawberries and bananas.

2. Whatever...

3. We are not making banana pies. Never. Fruits used to make a pie cannot be rotten.

Now, tell, me - are the cooks allowed to make a banana pie if bananas are not rotten? No!

 

Explanation for dummies:

 

 

Canteen - TO Company

Fruit desserts - Chatting Rules

apples - forum

strawberries - community services

bananas - in-game chat

pies - storage of certain data (e.g. banana pie is storing chat logs, and an apple pie is storing forum posts)

rotten fruits - old data

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by Schroedinger_Cat

[beaku 2,656]

Schroedinger_Cat, I think you're taking things rather too far. You're argument that Tanki doesn't have any right to store chats is baseless. Kindly Show Me where the EULA says so.

[A_R_A_K_E_L_Y_E_N 503]

Schroedinger:

My information is backed by two guys who deal with internet and servers. The info i say about "server" and "internet site" is accurate.

[Schroedinger_Cat 38]

Schroedinger_Cat, I think you're taking things rather too far. You're argument that Tanki doesn't have any right to store chats is baseless. Kindly Show Me where the EULA says so.

The EULA says it here:

 

 

3. The Company doesn’t store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window. (...)

 

You simply avoid all my arguments and continue writing your bosh.

 

 

Schroedinger:

My information is backed by two guys who deal with internet and servers. The info i say about "server" and "internet site" is accurate.

I doubt it.

[Moraine 5,877]

Our CM Cedric Debono asked me to quote him regarding this issue since he's currently experiencing issues with the forum and cannot post himself:

 

 

Hi,

 

I'd like to clarify and re-affirm Damn_Slow's explanation in this specific post on the forum: http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showtopic=289674&p=5612058 and also in his subsequent posts.

 

What you quoted is only part of article 11.3 of the EULA.

 

"The Company doesn’t store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window."

 

What this means is that such data is not available for Users' review.

 

The second part states very clearly that —and I quote— "Tanki Online MAY but is not obliged to maintain backup copies of any material posted on the Internet Site". (capitalization mine).

 

Furthermore, as per article 3 of our EULA: “Internet Site” shall mean the totality of all the Materials and web-resources located at the address http://tankionline.com and at all its sub-domains with address /en/, /de/, at the game servers with the addresses beginning with /battle-en, /battle-de, on the domain name http://tankionline.com with its game servers and other websites connected to it and accessible through links or other access paths and the services available through such sites which have been legally and officially recognized by the Company.

 

So to clarify, "Internet Site" also refers to chat logs.

 

While I understand why this might have been confusing to you, I must emphasize that this procedure is crucial in the effective function of moderating the various areas of the game's platform.

 

On a final note, your ban from chat was given in accordance with the Game Rules.

 

I hope this has answered your query, and I apologize for any confusion.

 

Best regards,

 

Cedric

EN Community Manager

[beaku 2,656]

The EULA says it here:

 

You simply avoid all my arguments and continue writing your bosh.

 

 

Exactly what you did with mine. I would have told you to go and read my first post carefully but you can read Cedric's reply above. Hope the issue is now clarified. :) Edited July 4, 2016 by beaku

[Phoenix.Raised 5,992]

Today in the morning hours game did not work due to technical problems. I know that technical problems are inevitable and sometimes unpredictable, but since there for nothing about that issues in News and Announcements or at the main page, I went into Russian community to see if I could find some information there.

---

And yes, there was a Topic related to today's work (which are of course already completed).

 

I just want to ask why players in our EN community did not receive that announcement in News and Announcements?
 

Thank you for the answer

[Moraine 5,877]

I just want to ask why players in our EN community did not receive that announcement in News and Announcements?

 

Thank you for the answer

 

 

Our CM Cedric Debono...  currently experiencing issues with the forum and cannot post himself:

Is that good enough of a reason? 

[Schroedinger_Cat 38]

"The Company doesn’t store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window."

 

What this means is that such data is not available for Users' review.

Users are not mentioned there. If you say "something is not available" it means, that it is not available to anyone, including TO employees, the police, GRU and Mossad. If your intention was to say, that the data "is not available for Users' review", the EULA shall be edited in the following way:

 

3. The Company is allowed, but not obliged to store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available for the User in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window. Content stored on the Company’s servers is not meant for permanent or temporary archival purposes. Therefore Tanki Online may but is not obliged to maintain backup copies of any material posted on the Internet Site. The Company reserves the right to impose a limit on the maximum storage capacity for each User.

 

 

But it is not. Thus TO is not allowed to do so.

 

The second part states very clearly that —and I quote— "Tanki Online MAY but is not obliged to maintain backup copies of any material posted on the Internet Site". (capitalization mine).

Well, if TO really means any material, it is in contradiction with the first part. Since the chat logs were excluded in the first part, you cannot restore them in the subsequent sentence! It's against any logic!

 

So to clarify, "Internet Site" also refers to chat logs.

So what? Storing chat logs is forbidden by point 11.3.

 

While I understand why this might have been confusing to you, I must emphasize that this procedure is crucial in the effective function of moderating the various areas of the game's platform.

I can understand that, but I do not care about it. Rules are rules and must be obeyed also by TO. If you need the chat logs, please change the EULA. You are not allowed to store them with the current EULA.

 

On a final note, your ban from chat was given in accordance with the Game Rules.

What? I never mentioned my ban! You simply talk about things that are not important, while avoiding referring to important arguments!

 

 

 

Exactly what you did with mine. I would have told you to go and read my first post carefully but you can read Cedric's reply above. Hope the issue is now clarified. :)

What? Which part of your post have I ignored? And no, Cedric's reply has not clarified anything. Mainly because he talks about his reasons, not the EULA itself.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Schroedinger_Cat

[Phoenix.Raised 5,992]

Is that good enough of a reason? 

You posted V-LOG instead of Cedric and you posted Best Helpers (June 2016) instead of Cedric.

 

You can also post announcement about issues instead of Cedric?

And I also mentioned main page, not just the Forum.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Phoenix.Raised

[beaku 2,656]

Schroedinger_Cat, keep in mind that EULA expands to End User License Agreement which YOU, as a user has agreed to. It constitutes and governs the contractual relationship between you and the Company.

Now, what you have agreed to, while signing up, is the following statement:

"The Company doesn’t store chat messages on its servers. Chat messages are only available in real time and are automatically erased once they are gone from the chat window. Content stored on the Company’s servers is not meant for permanent or temporary archival purposes. "

This automatically implies that you cannot ask the company to provide chat logs since they aren't stored for archival purposes. Now this is very important:

" Therefore Tanki Online may but is not obliged to maintain backup copies of any material posted on the Internet Site."

This means that since the company does not store chat logs for archival purposes, it is allowed to keep backup copies for its own undisclosed purposes .

Try to understand the difference between what the first part is saying and what the second part implies. I cannot make it any more clearer than this.

The company isn't doing anything legally wrong even if it stores backup copies copies of chat logs. Get some professionals on the job if you like. You'll see that they'll reach the same conclusion.

[beaku 2,656]

You posted V-LOG instead of Cedric and you posted Best Helpers (June 2016) instead of Cedric.

 

You can also post announcement about issues instead of Cedric?

---

And I also mentioned main page, not just the Forum.

Maybe because she was asleep? :p

Anyway, it rarely happens that such an announcement fails to be delivered to a particular community, especially a big one like ours. I'm sure this was a singular event. Also, do remember that devs themselves are Russians so they can directly communicate with the RU community. Therefore, it's no big secret that have a slight advantage over us in such matters. But don't think that they deliberately kept us in the dark about the issue. No one gains from that.

[A_R_A_K_E_L_Y_E_N 503]

Schroedingers cat.

 

Your trying to prove that apples are grapefruit.

 

It never said that tanki online is not allowed to store chat logs on internet site!!!! It only says its immediatly erased from server!!!!

 

In words you might be able to understand!!!!!:

A server is the hardware that stores info. The program itself is dictated by the server. The chat is entered into server by us chatting. Them the server makes what you wrote part of the game on the server. Beside the server is the internet site which in definition also includes the servers. But Tankionline has a separate database thats also included to the definition of internet site. That database is not used for thr "virtual interactive User interaction" and therefore is not in the definition of server. The chat can be copied to that database before deleted on server solving your problem

[A_R_A_K_E_L_Y_E_N 503]

^if anyone understands that pls proof read.

[X_Death.By.Me_X 1,503]

Look guys, the thing that is often overlooked is the lower ranks, I swear to god this is the dirtiest and the hardest part of tanki. Most of the new players that come often give up quite soon due to druggers, kit buyers or mu'ers. If no more new people are gonna come, how is tanki gonna grow? It's gonna die eventually, without proper knowledge of the game through forum, newspapers etc, its is impossible to survive through he m1 ranks. And i have seen many people who come to lower rank servers and just post the username and pass of accounts. Please make gameplay at lower ranks easier, this is the only way tanki's player base can grow. Tanki lags so much, its hard to earn cry, I tried to make many friends play the game but all of them quit by saying its too hard.

Edited July 4, 2016 by X_Death.By.Me_X

[Phoenix.Raised 5,992]

Also, do remember that devs themselves are Russians so they can directly communicate with the RU community. Therefore, it's no big secret that have a slight advantage over us in such matters. But don't think that they deliberately kept us in the dark about the issue. No one gains from that.

No, I don't think that developers or anyone from the administration deliberately kept us in the dark. Moreover, I never even thought something like that.

 

But developers communicate with all communities.

[A_R_A_K_E_L_Y_E_N 503]

Server = database

switch = directs info

user = players computer

Internet site = anything thst is connected to tankionline and can be accessed via whats written in their deffinition.

Game server = server based on their definition of server (a thing that helps the virtual interactive User interaction.)

 

 

The information that creates the program Tanki Online is stored on the Game servers. The game servers are part of the internet site. The information is transfered via switches routers and etc(in definition log above only switch is mentioned) to the user. The interaction commands are then sent back from the user to the game server via the same switchs. To chat, the user opens the chat command and types. The chat is transfered to the game server. The game server stores the information as part of the game for any user relevant to thr situation to see. As soon as the chat disappears from the game, it is erased from the game server in order to lower work overload. When Tanki Online sees fit to keep a temporary or permanent backup of the chat then it transfers it to the server before its erased from game server. This server, just like the game server, is part of the internet site.

 

This does not violate EULA in any way... realize it already

Edited July 4, 2016 by A_R_A_K_E_L_Y_E_N

[Moraine 5,877]

You posted V-LOG instead of Cedric and you posted Best Helpers (June 2016) instead of Cedric.

 

You can also post announcement about issues instead of Cedric?

---

And I also mentioned main page, not just the Forum.

We have no authorization to post on the main page plus as someone said, we're all in different time zones. On top of it all Cedric is the only EN CM while Russians have several. In spite of all the difficulties we're managing to deal with all of them as a team but we simply cannot make it every time. 

 

The whole issue has nothing to do with so-called myths regarding this game, it was simply a technical problem so I don't see why it was posted here in the first place.