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[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Turrets > Smoky>

There is something wrong with the critical damage values given in the tables.. the game does not reflect what is stated there.

In the last vLog there was the answer of a question on critical damage dealt by Smoky, and the value is not explainable with the values stated in the Wiki pages.

 

I understood, that you can only incorporate numbers that you receive from the devs.. but maybe you can also ask them back to give you new data on that. The one's in the wiki are obviously outdated.

 

Just wanted to make you aware of that :)

[Guest]

I understood, that you can only incorporate numbers that you receive from the devs.. but maybe you can also ask them back to give you new data on that. The one's in the wiki are obviously outdated.

No, those are the correct and current data.

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

No, those are the correct and current data.

They are clearly not.  What about the damage model on the wiki that states a weapon will always do it's max damage if the target is within the max damage range?  That's clearly wrong.  

[r_GaIaxy2 8,611]

They are clearly not. What about the damage model on the wiki that states a weapon will always do it's max damage if the target is within the max damage range? That's clearly wrong.

Can you provide links that show us where the problem is please?

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

https://youtu.be/ofMCS7uBmoQ?t=290

time index 04:50

 

The normal shots do damage of 509hp, 500hp and 521hp

Then the critical shot is dealt. It does a damage of 653hp - this is about 30% more.

 

The wiki does state the critical shot damage as value, which is aproximately 9% higher then the normal damage.

So either the wiki entry is wrong or incomplete (like if the damage model for criticals calculates in a different way - with other min/max ranges as example)

[r_GaIaxy2 8,611]

 

https://youtu.be/ofMCS7uBmoQ?t=290

time index 04:50

 

The normal shots do damage of 509hp, 500hp and 521hp

Then the critical shot is dealt. It does a damage of 653hp - this is about 30% more.

 

The wiki does state the critical shot damage as value, which is aproximately 9% higher then the normal damage.

So either the wiki entry is wrong or incomplete (like if the damage model for criticals calculates in a different way - with other min/max ranges as example)

 

The VOTW does not state the micro-upgrade level of the smoky so we are unsure whether it is M3, M4 or something inbetween. 

The damage has probably been reduced as the shots were fired from a range which explains why the critical shot has such high damage when compared to the normal shots. All the shots fit within the M3 and M4 min and max damage values so again, there is no way to prove what upgrade level it is.

 

We can not change values on the wiki based on a video that doesn't give us enough details to prove it is wrong. The current table in the wiki was given to us by the developers straight after the balance update so we have every reason to assume it is correct and up to date. 

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Sure the damage was reducedby range; but the range was practically the same for the normal shots and for the critical shot.

• So the critical is either more then [normal+9%]
• Or the critical follows a different [reduce damage over range] model.

 

whatever it is, the wiki does not state the one, nor the other. It was never my intention that you adapt the wiki on the fly regarding this issue, as there are too few informations. Therefore I kindly asked you if you could clearify this with the dev's.

 

Question coooould be like this:

 

 

 

Dear gamedesigner,

 

There is something unclear about the Smoky Critical shots.

 

Players have observed in English vLog 

@time index 04:50 a Smoky that shoots an enemy.

• All shots are at aproximately the same range.
• The normal shots do damage of 509hp, 500hp and 521hp
• The critical shot deals a damage of 653hp - this is about 30% more.

According to the players the English Wiki does either have wrong figures on critical damage (as critical damage in the wiki is normal damage +9%, and not +30%), or the damage-to-range model of the critical shots must be different.

Could you please cearify?

 

 

Edited November 15, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[r_GaIaxy2 8,611]

 

Sure the damage was reducedby range; but the range was practically the same for the normal shots and for the critical shot.

• So the critical is either more then [normal+9%]
• Or the critical follows a different [reduce damage over range] model.

 

whatever it is, the wiki does not state the one, nor the other. It was never my intention that you adapt the wiki on the fly regarding this issue, as there are too few informations. Therefore I kindly asked you if you could clearify this with the dev's.

 

Question coooould be like this:

 

 

May I ask, what page you are looking at?

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

May I ask, what page you are looking at?

the smoky page in the wiki http://en.tankiwiki.com/Smoky

 

Those are the values that I compare:

Max. Damage (hp) > M3 > 548.85

Critical damage (hp) > M3 > 599.41

 

599,41 : 548,85 = 1,09 = 109%. The critical does 9% more then the normal damage.

Same goes for M4, the critical is 9% more then the MaxDamage.

 

BUT: In the video the critical is 30% more then the normal damage.

 

There is no further information on how critical damage evolves over range in the wiki.

By experiments we found out, that it gets decreased over range.

But if we apply the same damage-to-range model as for normal shots, it does not fit to the video (and it also does not fit the in-battle experience)

 

 

Therefore I think that there is either some mistake, or some missing information.

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

Can you provide links that show us where the problem is please?

en.tankiwiki.com/Turrets.  But as tested by many players, Thunder doesn't always do it's max damage at close range.

[r_GaIaxy2 8,611]

The critical damage seems to be a fixed value as opposed to the normal damage which can be a range of values.

These values change depending on the range, so if the Mammoth is a decent distance away (which it was in the video) the normal damage will be low but the critical may still be high.

This means that it is possible for the critical damage to firlt anywhere from 9% bigger to somewhere over 30%.

 

As I stated previously, we will not be updating the Wiki based on one video. The table currently on the wiki is one that was given to us by the devs as the update was being implemented.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

The value is not fixed, it changes with range (I tried that out right after the balance)

 

Again, I do _not_ ask you to change the wiki based on my input.

I ask you to ask the developer how it does work, so he can explain it to you and us, and then please update the wiki on _his_ new information.

 

If I would have contacted him myself, but I have no possibility to contact him.

 

 

I am truely sorry if I can not get my point across, as I am not a native speaker.

Edited November 16, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

by the way, even if stand right next to an enemy, I can not deal max damage with Smoky M0.
According to the wiki I should deal 220hp from 0 to 50 meters (within max.dmg.range), which I never reached
 
Here a small excerpt:

Smoky M0, Range = right next to enemy
 

Shot1 normal   172 hp
Shot2 normal   188 hp
Shot3 normal   194 hp
Shot4 normal   169 hp
Shot5 critical 240 hp

average normal 180,75 hp
critical       240 hp
crit/normal    133%

Edited November 16, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

PLEASE CLARIFY.
 
IN THE WIKI ARTICLE FOR FIREBIRD, IT LISTS FIREBIRD'S MAX DAMAGE PER SECOND AS 840 HP PER SECOND. This is correct. However, it lists the max burning damage as 30 hp per half second. As we all know, the values for damage were recently multiplied by 10.  This still reflects the old hp values, so it amounts to 6 (old value) hp of damage per second, which is pretty much nothing.
 
However, many players have noticed that firebird's burning damage has been drastically decreased. Without the alteration it ceases to have a serious effect on gameplay.
 
SO I want to knoW:
 
Is this a typo, because it's the exact same number as the old value before everything was multiplied by ten?
OR
Was it intentional, and did the developers reduced the burn damage to 1/10th it's previous amount?

[Shedinja 1,488]

by the way, even if stand right next to an enemy, I can not deal max damage with Smoky M0.

According to the wiki I should deal 220hp from 0 to 50 meters (within max.dmg.range), which I never reached

 

Here a small excerpt:

 

 

Smoky M0, Range = right next to enemy

 

Shot1 normal   172 hp

Shot2 normal   188 hp

Shot3 normal   194 hp

Shot4 normal   169 hp

Shot5 critical 240 hp

 

average normal 180,75 hp

critical       240 hp

crit/normal    133%

The reason that you're having difficulty achieving maximum damage is because, as far as tests I've constructed have concluded, that the minimum and maximum damage values (in your case, 140 - 220) are determined randomly based on a bell curve. In accordance to the 69-95-99.7 rule, this means that shots will more often deal damage from the middle of the spectrum (floating around 180) than from the ends of the spectrum, i.e. the minimum and maximum ranges. This being the case, the chances of you doling maximum damage are about 0.3%.

 

The minimum and maximum damage stats are not drawn on a basis of range at all; rather, the random bell curve distribution is responsible. The maximum and minimum damage range stats are responsible for the decline of power. Even so, no matter how far away you are from the target, the damage stats will always remain congruent percentage-wise with one another.

 

 

 

 

PLEASE CLARIFY.

 

IN THE WIKI ARTICLE FOR FIREBIRD, IT LISTS FIREBIRD'S MAX DAMAGE PER SECOND AS 840 HP PER SECOND. This is correct. However, it lists the max burning damage as 30 hp per second. As we all know, the values for damage were recently multiplied by 10.  This still reflects the old hp values, so it amounts to 3 hp of damage per second, which is nothing.

 

However, many players have noticed that firebird's burning damage has been drastically decreased. Without the alteration it ceases to have a serious effect on gameplay.

 

SO I want to knoW:

 

Is this a typo, because it's the exact same number as the old value before everything was multiplied by ten?

OR

Was it intentional, and did the developers reduce the burn damage to 1/10th it's previous amount?

Posted 16 Nov 2016 - 14:04

PLEASE CLARIFY.

 

IN THE WIKI ARTICLE FOR FIREBIRD, IT LISTS FIREBIRD'S MAX DAMAGE PER SECOND AS 840 HP PER SECOND. This is correct. However, it lists the max burning damage as 30 hp per second. As we all know, the values for damage were recently multiplied by 10.  This still reflects the old hp values, so it amounts to 3 hp of damage per second, which is nothing.

 

However, many players have noticed that firebird's burning damage has been drastically decreased. Without the alteration it ceases to have a serious effect on gameplay.

 

SO I want to knoW:

 

Is this a typo, because it's the exact same number as the old value before everything was multiplied by ten?

OR

Was it intentional, and did the developers reduced the burn damage to 1/10th it's previous amount?

 

 

All right, first of all, ease up on the font in the future, please.

 

Secondly, I believe you misread the page. That would be 30 damage per tick, or half second. That's 60 damage there, which seems like a more reasonable number. However, I'm not certain of the damage statistics in game, I'll test them myself in a moment. They should be in accordance with the Wiki, and I don't remember any changes made to Firebird's afterburn effect after the global statistics update.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

The reason that you're having difficulty achieving maximum damage is because, as far as tests I've constructed have concluded, that the minimum and maximum damage values (in your case, 140 - 220) are determined randomly based on a bell curve. In accordance to the 69-95-99.7 rule, this means that shots will more often deal damage from the middle of the spectrum (floating around 180) than from the ends of the spectrum, i.e. the minimum and maximum ranges. This being the case, the chances of you doling maximum damage are about 0.3%.

 

The minimum and maximum damage stats are not drawn on a basis of range at all; rather, the random bell curve distribution is responsible. The maximum and minimum damage range stats are responsible for the decline of power. Even so, no matter how far away you are from the target, the damage stats will always remain congruent percentage-wise with one another.

 

Based on your explanations I drafted the Model B below.

 

So you mean

- normal damage for Smoky, Thunder, ... follows not Model A, but Model B?

- critical damage is the same, but skips the gauss curve and starts with 240 for each shot, which are then decreased by range?

 

edit: this would indeed make a lot of sense, and explain a lot of thigs!!!

 

[edit: picture from Model B removed, a better one is a few posts below]

Edited November 16, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[Shedinja 1,488]

Based on your explanations I drafted the Model B below.

 

So you mean

- normal damage for Smoky, Thunder, ... follows not Model A, but Model B?

- critical damage is the same, but skips the gauss curve and starts with 240 for each shot, which are then decreased by range?

 

edit: this would indeed make a lot of sense, and explain a lot of thigs!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maximum, minimum, and all in-between statistics are indeed correct. Likewise, critical damage should also have a congruent 9-10% increase in relation to the maximum damage statistic at that range. (Say, after weak damage range, M0 Smoky would deal 14 damage maximum, whereas a critical hit from that range should deal 24 damage.)

Edited November 16, 2016 by Shedinja

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Yep.. now the values from the Wiki and from the tests make sense.

The damage-over-range model was simply wrong..

 

This also explains why the Thunder "never" deals maximum damage..

 

 

I thank you so much !!

Edited November 16, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[Tani_S 736]

 

 

The reason that you're having difficulty achieving maximum damage is because, as far as tests I've constructed have concluded, that the minimum and maximum damage values (in your case, 140 - 220) are determined randomly based on a bell curve. In accordance to the 69-95-99.7 rule, this means that shots will more often deal damage from the middle of the spectrum (floating around 180) than from the ends of the spectrum, i.e. the minimum and maximum ranges. This being the case, the chances of you doling maximum damage are about 0.3%.

 

The minimum and maximum damage stats are not drawn on a basis of range at all; rather, the random bell curve distribution is responsible. The maximum and minimum damage range stats are responsible for the decline of power. Even so, no matter how far away you are from the target, the damage stats will always remain congruent percentage-wise with one another.

 

 

So you are saying that it is rather unlikely to do the max. damage?

 

Then this wiki description is wrong:

 

"Range of max damage (m) — distance at which the turret deals its full damage." 

 

This description says, that if you are in the range of the maximum damage, you will inflict the maximum damage. So there is [a] a clear link between range and damage and if you are in the range, it is 100% sure that you will inflict maximum damage.

 

I appreciate your explanation very much. It's about time to get the wiki updated tho.

 

 

Secondly, I believe you misread the page. That would be 30 damage per tick, or half second. That's 60 damage there, which seems like a more reasonable number. However, I'm not certain of the damage statistics in game, I'll test them myself in a moment. They should be in accordance with the Wiki, and I don't remember any changes made to Firebird's afterburn effect after the global statistics update.

The devs said that the damage parameters will be multiplied by factor 10 in the rebalance. The global balance sheet says there is no change to the afterburn parameters. The current parameters in the wiki are apparently the same as the prebalance parameters. Even if it is 60 per second it is really low, because it is the maximum afterburn. As Blackwasp did some calculations on the afterburn, which said (iirc) that reaching the maximum afterburn is not possible anymore. Or is the model B here applied as well, so that there is always a range between the damage values?

Edited November 16, 2016 by Tani_S

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

FullDamage is not max.Damage.

 

• From range=0 to range=max.DamageRange the turret deals full damage. "Full damage" is a random amount between min.Damage and max.Damage (whereby the likelyhood to be in the middle of that range is way higher then to reach the max or min exactly - Gauss curve).
• At Min.DamageRange and beyond the damage is [Weak damage %] of full damage.
• Between max.DamageRange and MinDamageRange the damage is decreased linearely.
• Then draw a nice scematic and you are ready to go

[Tani_S 736]

Thank you for your explanation! That really helps. I still think the description is at least extremely misleading. We don't know how long this model has already been active, right? 

One side question, maybe didn't get it before: shouldn't the +9% of Smoky's critical also be applied on the minimum damage line in the graphic, in order to show the possible shots by the "critical full damage area"?  :huh: :huh it get's complicated:

 

To make things easier, in future I will probably just go with the average of max. and min. damage and tell to me that there are variations to the max. and minimum values to a 30% probability possible.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Tani_S

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

The explanations in the wiki are already improoved, but I agree that there is still room for improovement :P

It were the very, very old ones were the base for the misleaded concepts that were in the heads of so many tankers.

 

The critical damage has no min/max. It is (for M0) 240 -> and that reduced by range, down to 24 (10% of 240, as weak damage = 10%). That is consitant with the tests from today morning.

 

To be precise: The +30% should be "+ ~30%", but the text was too small so I skipped the ~. It was good enough for me

Edited November 16, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[Shedinja 1,488]

• Range of max damage (m) — distance at which the turret deals highest maximum and minimum damage statistics. If the distance is greater than the max damage range, the damage for both congruently decrease until the minimum damage range is reached.
• Range of min damage (m) — distance at which the turret's damage stops decreasing. If the distance to the target is greater, damage will be dealt according to "weak damage" parameter.

 

Here are the revised descriptions of the Wiki's Smoky section. Hopefully, these do a better job of describing how the damage decreases from the maximum range.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Shedinja

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

 

• Range of max damage (m) — distance at which the turret deals highest maximum and minimum damage statistics. If the distance is greater than the max damage range, the damage for both congruently decrease until the minimum damage range is reached, at which the damage values are identical to the weak damage.
• Range of min damage (m) — distance at which the turret's damage stops decreasing. If the distance to the target is greater, damage will be dealt according to "weak damage" parameter.

 

Here are the revised descriptions of the Wiki's Smoky section. Hopefully, these do a better job of describing how the damage decreases from the maximum range.

 

This would help.

 

And this has to be implemented for the "Turrets" main page and the "Thunder" page as well. Thank you! :)