Valid Lower healing rate when Isida heals another Isida

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

It is still easy to defeat Isidas when they are not in a group. Using a Thunder, Striker, Magnum or Firebird can easily take them out and kill them with ease.

Therefore this feature proposal nerves only isida groups, and not indiviudal Isidas.

[RIDDLER_8 5,552]

Look. There is no need to nerf Isida groups.

 

Today, I played in a battle with multiple Isidas on the enemy team and I still manged to kill them with Firebird and Magnum.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Actually, with this idea an Isida user instantly becomes the tanker that is least likely to be healed in any battle. Whether it's a nerf or not? IDK, but it's certainly a major hit for Isida users.

If the one tanker does not get healed, he will most likely also not heal the other Isida.

So if he wants to get healed, he just have to heal his Isida mate, so they learn that they depend on each other.

 

If you have a better proposal to balance the issue of Isida groups without harming a solo Isida, you're free to propose it

[D.a.n.t.e 475]

If the one tanker does not get healed, he will most likely also not heal the other Isida.

So if he wants to get healed, he just have to heal his Isida mate, so they learn that they depend on each other.

 

If you have a better proposal to balance the issue of Isida groups without harming a solo Isida, you're free to propose it

How about 2 Isidas that can't heal each other anymore fighting two Firebirds?

 

Sorry :(, but your proposal has a big flaw.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Sorry :(, but your proposal has a big flaw.

Don't worry, that's why this section is an open discussion. Not all ideas are awesome and we can talk about them to make them better ;)

If the flaw is that an Isida get's less healed.. then this is not a flaw in my eyes, but a solution for a problem.

 

 

How about 2 Isidas that can't heal each other anymore fighting two Firebirds?

So this would work only for Firebirds, and maybe also for Freezers.

But what about every other turret?

 

The usual way thing work in Tanki are "you fire at someone, and sooner or later he dies. If you have two tanks fireing at two tanks, sonner or later some die"

The thing with an Isida groups is that "you have two tanks firing at two Isidas, and they hardly ever die if the map offers just a bit of cover on their way in"

[D.a.n.t.e 475]

So this would work only for Firebirds, and maybe also for Freezers.

But what about every other turret?

 

The usual way thing work in Tanki are "you fire at someone, and sooner or later he dies. If you have two tanks fireing at two tanks, sonner or later some die"

The thing with an Isida groups is that "you have two tanks firing at two Isidas, and they hardly ever die if the map offers just a bit of cover on their way in"

But when they are healing each other, they are not attacking you, and when one is attacking you it is the same as any other turret with an Isida behind. You and your team mate can keep a distance from the Isidas and keep hitting the one behind, leaving mines on the ground. Your team would have to be made up of some noobs and the Isida team of smart players for them to dominate the battle. In that case, it will be very hard to buff the noobs and nerf the smart players.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

CONTEXT!

 

I just did my daily missions and guess what? All but one battle was a lopsided blowout for the other team. The exception was a lopsided blowout for my team. I had a 26/2 k/d w/Smoky in that one. So that's not an Isida.  In all the games the All-Star Noob Team I was on we were utterly blown out - helpless. And not a single one of those game featured an "Isida Pacl".

 

CONTEXT!

 

We have all played games that turned into a blowout. Some of those feature Isida packs others feature different lopsided performers. Just because someone saw an Isida pack blowout that does not mean this happens more often other types of blowouts. Or perhaps the reason the Isida pack seemed so powerful is because your team was just so bad?  I see bad teams all the time., I see Isida packs now and then.

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

CONTEXT!

 

I just did my daily missions and guess what? All but one battle was a lopsided blowout for the other team. The exception was a lopsided blowout for my team. I had a 26/2 k/d w/Smoky in that one. So that's not an Isida.  In all the games the All-Star Noob Team I was on we were utterly blown out - helpless. And not a single one of those game featured an "Isida Pacl".

 

CONTEXT!

 

We have all played games that turned into a blowout. Some of those feature Isida packs others feature different lopsided performers. Just because someone saw an Isida pack blowout that does not mean this happens more often other types of blowouts. Or perhaps the reason the Isida pack seemed so powerful is because your team was just so bad?  I see bad teams all the time., I see Isida packs now and then.

Good job, now care to join a polygon Cp or noise ctf to get the same results?

[LittleWillie 3,199]

If the one tanker does not get healed, he will most likely also not heal the other Isida.

So if he wants to get healed, he just have to heal his Isida mate, so they learn that they depend on each other.

 

If you have a better proposal to balance the issue of Isida groups without harming a solo Isida, you're free to propose it

I do! First prove a root-cause problem exists before the devs starts messing with something. As I and other have pointed out, the root cause could be and probably is noobism.

 

The devs just dropped an OD system into the game and 6 more are pending. Players have not learned how to play under a 1-OD system ,much less w/6 more. It would be utter folly to screw with turret parameters now when teh status quo will not last ore than a couple weeks.  SMH.

 

The thing with an Isida groups is that "you have two tanks firing at two Isidas, and they hardly ever die if the map offers just a bit of cover on their way in"

There is a simple reposte to this: It is utter BS. if you have two tanks firing at one Isida as a pair it is the same exact mathmatical situation as if your two tanks were firing on the Rail in a an Isida/Rail pair. Are Rails impossible to kill in this situation? No they aren't are they?

 

!00%. B. S.

 

But when they are healing each other, they are not attacking you, and when one is attacking you it is the same as any other turret with an Isida behind. You and your team mate can keep a distance from the Isidas and keep hitting the one behind, leaving mines on the ground. Your team would have to be made up of some noobs and the Isida team of smart players for them to dominate the battle. In that case, it will be very hard to buff the noobs and nerf the smart players.

Bravo!

 

The last thing this game needs at the moment is another round of parameter ping-pong. Given the slow learning curve for so many Tanki-ers there has best pass a few months before any balance decisions are made.

[RIDDLER_8 5,552]

I just played a Polygon battle with 3 enemy Isidas in the tunnel and they are so easy to kill with a Magnum, Thunder or Hammer.

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

riddler can you please stop repeating the same things over and over again every couple hours

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

1............It's nothing to do with Isida healing an Isida to encourage that Isida to heal you in return. It's about the practicality of Isida teammates taking longer to heal eachother compared to other turret-users. If it takes longer to heal an Isida then (as an Isida yourself) you're far more likely to prioritize healing everyone apart from the Isida. Especially if your defence is under siege and you only have a short amount of time between attack waves.

 

Also, a midfielder Isida that likes to tour and heal the midfield and defence of maps is hardly going to go looking for other Isida's to heal when they can heal others much quicker.

2..........I already did, twice.

 

In the ideas for Overdrive topic, I suggested a supplies deactivating Overdrive. Depending on what hull gets given this planned Overdrive this should negate any kind of drugger trains. I won't take the credit (or blame :lol:)  for this idea though. Cos I dunno if someone suggested it earlier. And I'm pretty sure Tanki devs had it in their plans anyway.

 

For no-drug CTF and 1-point CP battles....if Isida trains are a problem (which I don't see myself) then the idea I posted on this topic a couple of days ago could deal with it. But IMO, it's trying to solve a problem that rarely happens, or can be dealt with by good equipment choices in a strong defence.

1..... If your base is under siege and the enemies close in, you anyways have to heal the tanks with the highes survival potential and the most usefull turrets to deal damage the the incoming enemies. If you have only 2 Isidas, it makes no sense at all, that they heal each other while the rest of the team is under heavy fire (imho). So the nerv that I proposed makes no difference.

Once the enemies are driven out the base / out of the siege positions, then - if both Isidas are low on health already - they can also choose to drive out of cover and die, respawn, and continue to heal someone else. They die in the base, they spawn in the base.. not a far way to drive to their destination.

 

As a midfielder Isidas, and in the case you find an other midfielder isida camping in midfield (I understood your scenario that way), you maybe do good to stay in their cover as well for a few seconds longer to heal the Isida as well. It will stay there and heal his damage dealing camper buddy and defend off incoming enemies better if on full health. An exception might be if enemies are closing in right now, but then the scenario from above applies. Anyways they are better off to form a fall back move from cover to cover, giving the isidas enough time to heal, if both get trapped in such a situation

 

 

2.... as DA and DP cancel each other out, it comes down to "who drugs more, wins", so I think drugs are not a cruicial aspect here.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

If this idea worked in a way where Isida healing Isida was nerfed only when the Isidas were within a certain range of the enemy base( or within a certain range of the point in a one point CP battle).....then it would be more palletable. But it's still debatable whether this is fair or not.

I fear this would lead to much confusion, as things work different whereever you are on the map, especially with the CP points idea.

It still does not solve the issue of attacking a base full of Isidas.

Except you have a full set of Magnums around.. but see, this is no balance. No other turret can camp as long as teams without taking enough damage to die over time (talking about non-drug situations).

 

 

But when they are healing each other, they are not attacking you, and when one is attacking you it is the same as any other turret with an Isida behind. You and your team mate can keep a distance from the Isidas and keep hitting the one behind, leaving mines on the ground. Your team would have to be made up of some noobs and the Isida team of smart players for them to dominate the battle. In that case, it will be very hard to buff the noobs and nerf the smart players.

It is different, because if an Isida camps with a non-Isida as a team, then I can target the Isida first. There is some persistant damage I can deal. I will maybe take a few aproaches, but sooner or later it will be dead, we can take out the camper and pass through.

With two Isidas camping close the base they can heal each other after each attack try. There is no persistant damage, and that's the difference.

The more Isidas there are, the faster they can heal each other as they pool their energy.

 

Rading your post makes me think you talk about a train of Isidas that comes in through the open, where they aproach lined up, and every Isida takes only care for the one infront of it. I talk about packs (see title), where there is no "last one", but at least two "last ones", and drive from cover to cover, making a short stop to recharge, heal and go on.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

I do! First prove a root-cause problem exists before the devs starts messing with something. As I and other have pointed out, the root cause could be and probably is noobism..

Could you please find another argument?

I mean.. see here: "Magnum is OP" > you are just a noob. "Fire M2 Alteration a few months back is OP" -> you are just a noob. "Hammer at it's introduction was OP" -> they were just noobs. "an Isida on DA + DP with 50% self heal can mathematically cancel almost all damage dealt to it if close enough, leaving each standoff unharmed" -> that poor noobs..

So please be a bit more crispy in your argumentation. The noob argument is only valid if you come up with a tactic that works almost every time against a special thread and is widely applicable on almost every map. If not, then it#s not about noobism.

 

 

Your argument with the Isida+Isida -vs- Rail+Isida is not correct. Fire there with one Magnum, and dean 1800 hp damage each 7 seconds (just an example). The two-Isida-team will heal each other, while the rail-isida-team will die sooner or later, as the Isida can not charge up itself.

 

 

 

The last thing this game needs at the moment is another round of parameter ping-pong. Given the slow learning curve for so many Tanki-ers there has best pass a few months before any balance decisions are made.

on this aspect you are right.

At the moment we have to struggle with a temporary implmentation of overdrives, that will chage sonner or later to those tank abilities.. and this will turn around a lot in this game. It is a bad time to judge things - except you can isolate them.

 

Lucky for us, isolations is no big deal, as the OD feature can be easily deactivated in pro battles. And in the most pro battles that I used to play the last weekend it was deactivated.

So it's still valid.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

I just played a Polygon battle with 3 enemy Isidas in the tunnel and they are so easy to kill with a Magnum, Thunder or Hammer.

Could it be that you used a DP and blew them out in almost one strike, while they had no DA equipped?

Edited July 27, 2017 by BlackWasp777

[lukey0 27,543]

Could it be that you used a DP and blew them out in almost one strike, while they had no DA equipped?

Probably, Magnum on DD can 1 shot most hulls that is used with Isida.

[The_Pakistani 16,768]

Today in enemy team there were  6 isidas out of 10. 1 healer per player

[RIDDLER_8 5,552]

Sometimes I use double damage on Isida groups. I can still manage to destroy groups of Isidas without using double damage. Magnum has good damaging effect to take out Isida groups.

[wolverine848 13,097]

 

Your argument with the Isida+Isida -vs- Rail+Isida is not correct. Fire there with one Magnum, and dean 1800 hp damage each 7 seconds (just an example). The two-Isida-team will heal each other, while the rail-isida-team will die sooner or later, as the Isida can not charge up itself.

 

LW was mentioning two similar situations... attacking an isida/Isida pair OR attacking Isida/Rail pair.

 

Attacking 1 tank in first pair is same as attacking the rail in second pair.  In each case the tank being attacked is getting healed by one Isida.

 

The fact that Isida/Isida pair can heal each other makes no difference. each is being healed by only 1 Isida. same as the Rail.

So... keep attacking same target and it will die.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

LW was mentioning two similar situations... attacking an isida/Isida pair OR attacking Isida/Rail pair.

 

Attacking 1 tank in first pair is same as attacking the rail in second pair.  In each case the tank being attacked is getting healed by one Isida.

 

The fact that Isida/Isida pair can heal each other makes no difference. each is being healed by only 1 Isida. same as the Rail.

So... keep attacking same target and it will die.

Hmm..

 

A Thunder M3 (a nice example for an "average damage") deals aprox. 750 hp damage each 2.565 seconds (if withtin max damage range). So it deals an average damage of 292,4 hp/sec, including it's reload.

 

An Isida M3 heals 669,41 hp/sec and can heal for 10sec. This are 6694.1 healed hp/energy bar. The reload of an empty energy bar back to a full energy bar takes 10sec. So it can heal 6694,1 hp/20sec = 334,7sec

 

So actually an Isida can heal away more damage then a Thunder can deal.

 

I could now repeat the calculation for other turrets, but I think this is nice enough.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Hmm..

 

A Thunder M3 (a nice example for an "average damage") deals aprox. 750 hp damage each 2.565 seconds (if withtin max damage range). So it deals an average damage of 292,4 hp/sec, including it's reload.

 

An Isida M3 heals 669,41 hp/sec and can heal for 10sec. This are 6694.1 healed hp/energy bar. The reload of an empty energy bar back to a full energy bar takes 10sec. So it can heal 6694,1 hp/20sec = 334,7sec

 

So actually an Isida can heal away more damage then a Thunder can deal.

 

I could now repeat the calculation for other turrets, but I think this is nice enough.

How many Thunders in your example?  1 vs 2 not fair in pretty much all situations?

 

What if two Rails with Alt fire close together?  Theoretically they could kill both Isidas at same time.

2 Firebirds or 2 hammers?  How about 2 Twins that never have to reload.

 

One shaft can kill up to medium with one shot.  Unless it's Riddler you don't see many Isida's on heavy hulls. And that is usually on smaller maps. In this case see paragraph above.

[D.a.n.t.e 475]

Hmm..

 

A Thunder M3 (a nice example for an "average damage") deals aprox. 750 hp damage each 2.565 seconds (if withtin max damage range). So it deals an average damage of 292,4 hp/sec, including it's reload.

 

An Isida M3 heals 669,41 hp/sec and can heal for 10sec. This are 6694.1 healed hp/energy bar. The reload of an empty energy bar back to a full energy bar takes 10sec. So it can heal 6694,1 hp/20sec = 334,7sec

 

So actually an Isida can heal away more damage then a Thunder can deal.

 

I could now repeat the calculation for other turrets, but I think this is nice enough.

I think a delay in switching from damage to heal will do the trick to prevent Isida packs and help when you encounter a pair of any turret and an Isida. It would make using Isida more challenging. But this idea of lower heal rate will be unfair for people that use Isidas and don't get heal, even though they are not running a pack.

[TheBlackChick 319]

Isida is nowhere near as good as it used to be. Its a good healer. Yes!...but if its forced to attack instead of heal then isida can become useless very quickly.

We could capture a flag alone after escaping from a 1v3 sitation  :lol:  :lol: Now having no option but to attack feels like being in trouble...

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

How many Thunders in your example?  1 vs 2 not fair in pretty much all situations?

 

What if two Rails with Alt fire close together?  Theoretically they could kill both Isidas at same time.

2 Firebirds or 2 hammers?  How about 2 Twins that never have to reload.

 

One shaft can kill up to medium with one shot.  Unless it's Riddler you don't see many Isida's on heavy hulls. And that is usually on smaller maps. In this case see paragraph above.

According to the example that I received (Rail+Isi -vs- Isi+Isi) I went for Thunder+Isida -vs- Isida+Isida.. so it was 2tanks vs 2 tanks.

(Thunder deals more avg.dmg.per time then Rail, so I went for Thunder right away).

 

 

About Hammers, Firebirds and Twins I do not know.

I know that an Isida kills faster then a Twins for sure (I get owned by Isidas regularly on Polygon), but of course the Twins has the range addvantage, but for sure no Isida pilot is stupid enough to wait in the open. If he waits behind a corner the Twins can forget his advantages.

 

But whatever tanks attacks, if they make it through they are severely damaged.

If Isidas make it through they heal each other as pack.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

I think a delay in switching from damage to heal will do the trick to prevent Isida packs and help when you encounter a pair of any turret and an Isida. It would make using Isida more challenging. But this idea of lower heal rate will be unfair for people that use Isidas and don't get heal, even though they are not running a pack.

A delay is an interresting approach. Would it work against all enemies like that?