Episode 108 of the V-LOG is here

[wolverine848 13,097]

Truly a long range weapon? No. Not at all. One hit in 5 would do any noticeable damage. Meanwhile the other guy's rail is punching holes in you. Or his shaft is turning you to slag.

 

What a 20% critical hit at long range means, every so often you will fire a defensive shot as you run for cover and you'll get a Crit on a badly-wounded tank and it goes boom. 95% of the time that does not happen.

Let me re-phrase...

Smoky will work on long range as well as medium range if 1-in-5 shots are better than it's new "maximum".

 

Don't forget it also reloads a lot faster than all the other long-range weapons.

I don't see smoky as a run-and-hide weapon. It works better if firing continuously, thus generating more criticals.

 

I'm certainly not happy about the nerfs.

The fact it may keep full critical at long distance is a slight mitigation of losing the more powerful critical.

I also don't like losing impact force (and then paying to get that back as an alteration).

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

I disagree from my noobie perspective. I have an alt with some pretty good MU=ed gear for the rank and that tank (Smoky/Titan) will see a Wasp/Idlsa come up and just park un front beaming me no effort to dodge or anything. Yeah, I'll kill it but not until it takes me down to ~25-35%.  If it has DD up I am dead. That's a Wasp in a simple toe-to-toe against a Titan ... a tough Titan.

 

You don't see any wasp/rails acting that complacent going up against my combo. just siting still saying OK let's do this. 

You compare a shortrange turret to a longrange turret.

Shortrangers have to deal more damage then longrangers; as the shorties have to balance out the risk to be shot by you while they aproach you. If shortrangers would do as much damage as longrangers, then noone would use the shortrange turret.

---

I dont know your equipment on your alt, but lets assume it is all M1:

Your M1 Smoky would need 4 shots to take out an M1 Wasp (with some slightly MUs) = 3 reload periods = 5,4 seconds.

 

An M1 firebird it would toast your Titan in 4..5 seconds (5sec if your health is upgraded from 200hp ->  240hp).

Simmilar values for Freeze M1.. while here you have a slightly bigger chance to survive.

You manage to kill the Isida - so it is obviously weaker then the other two shortrangers.

Sounds all fair to me..

 

 

..and it starts to get unbalanced on Supplies:

where a firebird of Freeze doubles only his damage, the Isida will double Damage and self healing. Thats where the biggest advantage of that turret comes from. Same goes for DA.. an Isida on DA looses roughly the amount of health it is regaining.

Edited October 5, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[wolverine848 13,097]

Self-healing is down but they can still damage enemy tanks. So I see no reason to stop maneuvering on the battle filed. I certainly do not plan to just sit at the flag.

 

They just cannot return themsleves back to 100% easilly. That is the same as all other tanks and  THE OTHER TANKS get flags. 

Isida is quite different from all the other tanks in it's attack though.

 

It will take a beating while approaching the flag without doing any return damage.

Unlike firebird and freeze it can only damage 1 tank per attack.

It does not incapacitate other tanks like freeze.

Correct me if I'm wrong but firebird DPS (or however u want to measure) is greater than isida.

 

"not easily" is an understatement. I think isidas will barely be able to regain health with that low 10% recovery.

They do 50 and heal back... 5?

 

And yes - sitting at the flag healing teammates will become boring very fast. tankers who expect that of isidas better be dropping them every second flag. else they won't be seeing many isidas.

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

 

derived from the description in the wiki. It does not state, that the damage of critical hits is influenced by range. Besides it is the only logical thing.. I mean.. do you really think that Tanki gives a +9% damage by a 20% chance? This translates into an averade damage increase of aprox. +2%.. which is not even recogniseable. Edit: But I asked that question a few posts below to have it clearified.
I truely understand it in the way, that the critical damage is now not anymore reduced by range. I am not 100% sure if it reaches longer then the min.damage range of ~130 meters, but it would make sense if it does.

 

About the overall DPM reduction: I have not compared old smoky to new smoky; I just plotted some graphs that show me the average DPM of most new turrets compared to each other on the Y-axis and given different ranges on the X-axis.
I have not yet made those graphs official, as in my optinion _DPM_alone_ is a misleading value.

A very important (and maybe more important) information is the time-to-kill (TTK)... meaning the time ot takes to take down a certain hull with a certain weapon.

 

Example:
1) a DP Thunder has more DPM then a DP Railgun. But while a DP Thunder can not one-shot a Hornet, a DP Railgun can.
So the TTK (time to kill) for the DP Thunder is about 2.5seconds (shot-reload-shot) while the TTK for DP Rail is 1,1 seconds (precharge-shot).
2) Some turrets (like Rico, Firebird) have damage bursts in which they deal serious damage - followed by a reload period. So while the Thunder DPM is about 2x as high as Rico's DPM, a Thunder takes 5.13 sec to kill a hornet; while the Rico takes only 2,73 seconds (at a range of below 46 meters). No doubt who will stand tall in a 1-1 showoff if they meet in an open midfield.
3) Even a Smoky kills a Hornet within 4,5 seconds (without critical hits!!), while a Thunder takes 5,13 seconds at their max damage ranges (below 65 meters).
4) Rico's DPM is waaaayy lower then Freeze's DPM.. but a Rico can kill a Hornet faster then a Frezee can - and it has some range reserve and rapid impacting shells too.

 

Also the time in cover is important.. a Vulcan deals more DPM then a Thunder; but the Thunder can pop out from it's cover, shot, and hide again (well, a fast M3 hull can). So most likely the thunder will survive longer using the same hull then a Viking.. and therefore his turret will have more "active time" on the battle field; resulting in a larger impact on the enemies health.
The real DPM dealt on the field is massively different from the DPM calculated based on the stats... and so the graphs alone are misleading.

DPM counts in CP games; and in other gamemodes if you are a pure damage dealing player that covers the midfield. In most other situations the TTK is more important - IMHO.

There is something you overlook. You assume thunder and smoky has just shot after it turns to the hornet, but in fact it is mostly the opposite. Assuming they are fully reloaded when they start hitting the hornet, the thunder takes 2.5 seconds TTK and the smoky takes 2.6 seconds. The first shot takes no time at all if the gun is ready to fire, then you have the reload, then the second shot destroys the hornet. In this respect, SHAFT, THEN HAMMER TAKES THE LEAST TIME TO KILL A HORNET. Shaft takes no time at all (instant kill) then hammer takes 1.8 seconds. (SHot, reload, shot, dead hornet.) After this comes Twins, Rico, Thunder, Smoky, freeze, firebird, all close together. Then isida, vulcan, railgun. Of course, on heavy hulls, the time changes drastically, as firebird has the burn and the medium-long range guns have their reload, while the close range guns do 80 dps. THe medium long range guns only have an advantage over light hulls because that first shot that doesn't require reload. Ex. After 1 second, firebird does 72 damage, not counting burn. However, thunder does 110 instantly (no time) This provides a huge advantage.

 

This update is pretty bad. Things that need to be changed as of specs now:

 

Twin's damage
Vulcan's impact force.
Firebird's burn (because that alteration)
Freeze effect takes too long to take hold.
Thunder's splash is too weak. This is the only thing that needs to be implemented in order to make thunder as powerful as smoky
Isida needs to have self healing not affected by double damage, not reduced to 10%.
Vulcan needs to turn faster.
Rico needs more charge to make it as good as twins.

 

Instead of making the hulls into 3 classes, you should do the opposite. THere were 7 hulls before, add two hulls, one between hornet and hunter, and one between dictator and titan. That way you have 9 hulls spread evenly accross the weight and speed spectrum, with a playstyle available fore everyone. This is not World of Tanks.

 

Oh, also, make sure to click the spoiler in the quoted section.

[Bugs.meeny 1,013]

Idea: People want isidas to heal more, why not make it large self heal when healing teemates instead of when attacking?

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

Lol. That's a joke right?

 

Think what would happen if you got a pack of isidas

 

One Word: UNSTOPPABLE, even without drugs. They would heal each other and themselves at the same time, and a pack of isidas is already hard enough to deal with.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

There is something you overlook.

 

 

You assume thunder and smoky has just shot after it turns to the hornet, but in fact it is mostly the opposite. Assuming they are fully reloaded when they start hitting the hornet, the thunder takes 2.5 seconds TTK and the smoky takes 2.6 seconds. The first shot takes no time at all if the gun is ready to fire, then you have the reload, then the second shot destroys the hornet. In this respect, SHAFT, THEN HAMMER TAKES THE LEAST TIME TO KILL A HORNET. Shaft takes no time at all (instant kill) then hammer takes 1.8 seconds. (SHot, reload, shot, dead hornet.) After this comes Twins, Rico, Thunder, Smoky, freeze, firebird, all close together. Then isida, vulcan, railgun. Of course, on heavy hulls, the time changes drastically, as firebird has the burn and the medium-long range guns have their reload, while the close range guns do 80 dps. THe medium long range guns only have an advantage over light hulls because that first shot that doesn't require reload. Ex. After 1 second, firebird does 72 damage, not counting burn. However, thunder does 110 instantly (no time) This provides a huge advantage.

 

 

ehm, maybe you overlook that I used the new parameters?

After the update the Thunder will take 3 Shots to kill a Hornet, so it takes 2 reload periods (as the shot consumes no time for a Thunder)

 

Because I actually made my calculations in exact that way, that you proposed too: the first shot takes no time (for Smokys and Thunders) and Hammers

Edited October 5, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[LittleWillie 3,199]

You compare a shortrange turret to a longrange turret.

Shortrangers have to deal more damage then longrangers; as the shorties have to balance out the risk to be shot by you while they aproach you. If shortrangers would do as much damage as longrangers, then noone would use the shortrange turret.

---

I dont know your equipment on your alt, but lets assume it is all M1:

Your M1 Smoky would need 4 shots to take out an M1 Wasp (with some slightly MUs) = 3 reload periods = 5,4 seconds.

 

An M1 firebird it would toast your Titan in 4..5 seconds (5sec if your health is upgraded from 200hp ->  240hp).

Simmilar values for Freeze M1.. while here you have a slightly bigger chance to survive.

You manage to kill the Isida - so it is obviously weaker then the other two shortrangers.

Sounds all fair to me..

 

 

..and it starts to get unbalanced on Supplies:

where a firebird of Freeze doubles only his damage, the Isida will double Damage and self healing. Thats where the biggest advantage of that turret comes from. Same goes for DA.. an Isida on DA looses roughly the amount of health it is regaining.

Fair enough, but these comments come from the perspective the Isida turrets are about damage as their primary role. I am not sure that is designer intent.

[Bugs.meeny 1,013]

Lol. That's a joke right?

 

Think what would happen if you got a pack of isidas

 

One Word: UNSTOPPABLE, even without drugs. They would heal each other and themselves at the same time, and a pack of isidas is already hard enough to deal with.

Good point. I guess ur plan of making DD not affect self-healing would work

[LittleWillie 3,199]

I know everyone must be tired of this n00b by now, but here are three more quick thoughts that struck me.

 

1) Mine will be slightly more dangerous now since in general medium and heavy hulls have had armor reductions. But mine damage remains the same.

 

2) I suspect some of Tanki's logic in the hull changes is to give some players momre and smaller upgrade steps. Example You can buy a Wasp m1 for about 13k then save up the 100k or so for m2. Or you can go up a few ranks and for 40k get a slightly better m1 Hornet. Appeals to the instant-gratification segment.

 

3) Tanki's is trying to fix the m3 / rank level /micro-upgrade issue by making all m3 gear available at the same rank. All that does is transpose the exact same issue to the m2 to  m3 upgrade phase. 

 

I've looked at the turret/hull combos I use now on my main account and my alts. As a lousy n00b I do not have m3 gear. So now (without going into all the details) I plan to exploit the same loophole just at my current rank levels.

 

The unfortunate side-effect to this is: Tanki Online makes me not want to level up in rank. What's my incentive? Other players with m3+ gear? Ever more Druggers and then (I am told) mults? Why do I want to level up? Let the current owners of m3+ gear level up to marshal. Good for them. I'll stay at Capt and Major as long as possible. 

 

The designers should be very concerned that their game discourages in-game development. That's usually the hook that lures players long-term.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

That is a valid suspicion to have, about the Isida nerf being motivated to drive Repair Kit purchases.

 

Which reminds me .. did anyone take the questionaire on alterations? Remmeber how the announcement said that alterations would not make yur tank any ore powerful? The survey is full of questions like, Agree? "Alteation make my tank more powerful." "Alterations let me earn lots more Crystals." 

 

LOL. Busted! Alterations are all about adding another Crystal cost to tank development. They are all about making one's tank more powerful. Why else buy them?

[Bydo 20,157]

we don't gain crystals in battles .. battles are battles i have never seen a increase yet .. more like me spending more and wasting them on drugs..

 

if you really want to complain send it to head office and let them see how upset we are on all of these updates and how its looking more like tanki X

Edited October 6, 2016 by frozen_heart

[TTK_229 1,080]

This is what I think could be done to isida:

Isida healing isida should decrease healing on both of them.

Self-healing should stay, as well as DPS.

Healing teammates should use up more energy, but recharge faster.

One thing everyone is forgetting is that healing gives exp as much as damaging does. This is an tradeoff for lower DPS and range.

 

Also, it seems stupid, but perhaps there could be a gun like shaft that can heal teammates at long range. (And yes, I did get this idea from Ana in Overwatch. Don't judge.)

[Maf 32,314]

Actually, I wrote an e-mail to the support, and told them my opinon about this balance update. They gave me a link to this topic, so its them why i'm here.

 

So what i said is that this would impact the mechanics of the game a lot. The change of stats show a lot of problem for me. I have m4 isida right now, that does well in battles due to its 50% self-healing. From tomorrow this will be 10%. This would make me reconsider if i still need isida. And the anwser is no!

 

To be honest, i believe i'm not the onlyone thinking like this, thats why i'd like to ask the devs to make a full garage rebalance! So i could rearrange my equipments and keep on playing the game.

 

And if even more players quit (buyers included) the game would collapse, and aaaaaaall of you at the tanki hq would become unemployed.

 

So pls consider the full rebalance thing!

 

Thanks

Topic merged

 

Yes, your Isida does well in battles. The problem is that it does too well, which is why it's being nerfed. Other turrets were unable to compete with it, so in order to make it more balanced the self-healing power was reduced. I'm afraid you're in the minority here - too many players were complaining about the healing being too strong, so developers are taking measures and making changes which will benefit more players.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

This is what I think could be done to isida:

Isida healing isida should decrease healing on both of them.

Self-healing should stay, as well as DPS.

Healing teammates should use up more energy, but recharge faster.

One thing everyone is forgetting is that healing gives exp as much as damaging does. This is an tradeoff for lower DPS and range.

 

Also, it seems stupid, but perhaps there could be a gun like shaft that can heal teammates at long range. (And yes, I did get this idea from Ana in Overwatch. Don't judge.)

I had a ha;f-idea for your long range dealie.

 

Drone Carrier: Releases s,all UAV's to  boost nearby team mate's performance (somehow). Offensively the UAV's would drop bomblets on the enmy. Or shoot them with pebble .. whatever.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Topic merged

 

Yes, yous Isida does well in battles. The problem is that it does too well, which is why it's being nerfed. Other turrets were unable to compete with it, so in order to make it more balanced the self-healing power was reduced. I'm afraid you're in the minority here - too many players were complaining about the healing being too strong, so developers are taking measures and making changes which will benefit more players.

The key word in all this is balance.

How does reducing the self-healing from 50% to 10% create balance?

It completely changes the nature of the turret. It will be so less effective in combat that few people will use it that way.

And using it for just healing will become so boring the turret will gather dust in garages.

 

Changing a parameter from 50% to 10% is not "balancing". It is destroying.

[VitaliyD174267 12]

The Russian economy is in the toilet so they are trying to make money, especially any money besides the ruble. Also Russia has so many sanctions against it for invading the Ukraine and other human rights abominations that it can barely function. Oil prices are low which tears up the Russian economy which relies on sales of oil.

I was born in Ukraine. Trust me, currently it's rough over there. Russia could possibly go bankrupt I feel they keep on pressing attacks.

[VitaliyD174267 12]

This idea of nerfing isida, smoky and thunder is ridiculous. On my other account, at bridgidaer, I was going to buy M3 isida to heal my teammates. Now instead, the "tanki developers" (more like "we need more buyers") nerfed the most essential weapons to a team battle. For what? To promote repair kit consumption! No one buys the repair kits because they are way overpriced, so the developers are literally forcing you to spend money on the game. World of Tanks basically....

[Classy_Dude 126]

Only Answer my question if you actually know, not just guessing or answering with feelings.

 

Will the new rebalance make the turrets in TO the same as in TX ? Thank you

[Bluebird13 95]

Only Answer my question if you actually know, not just guessing or answering with feelings.

 

Will the new rebalance make the turrets in TO the same as in TX ? Thank you

 

Hulls have some differences. I'm sure, simply because Dictator is a heavy in TX and Titan a medium in TO.

 

As for turrets, remember that TX doesn't have modifications (M1, M3, etc.). That makes it not-so-easy to tell.

 

 

I'm sorry if you really didn't want my response, as I didn't give you a definite answer. I wasn't guessing, however. :) 

 

[CortoMaltese 23]

Honestly? I cannot even begin to tell you how happy I am to finally see my Hunter become a feebler, and now even slower version of Viking. Thank you very much. You really make my day, Soviets. As though people hadn't laughed at me enough for playing Hunter even before this ... compost.

 

Each and every morning I wake up happy not to have spent any real currency on this game. When the new update hits, I'll take some of my enormous savings and light a few candles in the church down the street in honour of the Higher Being I worship to have enlightened me not to spend my worldly fortunes on the works of fools, and, what is more, unreliable and uncalculable fools. Talk about Noam Chomsky's concern with the unaccountability of businesses. Right here you have it.

Edited October 6, 2016 by CortoMaltese

[Classy_Dude 126]

Bluebird ^^

 

Thanks, I didn't no there wasn't modifications for them.

[Maf 32,314]

The key word in all this is balance.

How does reducing the self-healing from 50% to 10% create balance?

It completely changes the nature of the turret. It will be so less effective in combat that few people will use it that way.

And using it for just healing will become so boring the turret will gather dust in garages.

 

Changing a parameter from 50% to 10% is not "balancing". It is destroying.

The healing ability basically gave your hull 50% more health when fighting against another player. It was overpowered, so it had to be nerfed. And simply reducing the damage would not solve the problem because self-healing made Isida a lot more powerful specifically in battles with supplies, due to the way they function.

 

Isida is still unique in the way it attacks and the fact that it heals teammates.

[Classy_Dude 126]

Guys, they aren't destroying the game, we are just used to dominating other players with our OP turrets. Now they are fixing them to where they should have been, and you don't want to change and accept that. So just wait 2 more weeks and then say what you think.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Fair enough, but these comments come from the perspective the Isida turrets are about damage as their primary role. I am not sure that is designer intent.

 

Lets assume "balance of power" could be worded like "every turret on the battlefield has about the same power to overcome others" - if used propperly.

 

So lets assume an Isida and it's friend (a midranger, smoky) fight vs a firebird and his friend (a midranger, smoky)

Today, chances are high, that the attackers get the upper hand if:

their midranger come in and targets my Midranger at distance from behind a corner.. Isida wastes half it's energy on healing.

Then the firebird comes along, finishes the half-empty Isida without an issue while it uses the Isida as a cover from the midfielder. He gets some shots by the Smoky but he toastst it as well (he can attack two close up targets simultaniously); the firebird gets downed, and the enemy smoky can finish off the remainings of my midranger.

 

Today you need skill for such an attack; in the future you just drive in and kill the isisda first, as it can not counterattack/defend itself. Then the smoky is due.. and lucky you. Isidas future specs will weaken the teams.

 

 

 

Topic merged

 

Yes, your Isida does well in battles. The problem is that it does too well, which is why it's being nerfed. Other turrets were unable to compete with it, so in order to make it more balanced the self-healing power was reduced. I'm afraid you're in the minority here - too many players were complaining about the healing being too strong, so developers are taking measures and making changes which will benefit more players.

Isida was a little OP on full M4 (healing & damage 66); and massively OP on Supplies (especially on DP but also on DA).

To cut down the effect of supplies on selfhealing to zero (no double selfhealing if on DP) and it is a complete new world.

Then just a slight adaptation to Damage has to be made and the Isida would be balanced.

 

The new update sends it to the scrapyard.

Edited October 6, 2016 by BlackWasp777