Patch Update #439 - Balance Changes, New Alterations and Bug Fixes

[PhillipeReyes 32]

What did you do?!?! Self-destruction in the Twins??? afff In the Hammer too??? The next step is to put self-destruction in the Firebirds and in the Freezes? Are you crazies?

Edited February 19, 2017 by PhillipeReyes

[protesilaos_s 0]

I totally agree with you, this completely changes the way you can use twins

Edited February 19, 2017 by protesilaos_s

[protesilaos_s 0]

twins is not just about mindlessly attacking others. doing that would be ok for killing maybe one or two opponents but then you would simply get killed due to the damage you would sustain. there were more things you could do but simply can't any more with a twin. For example you simply can't circle an opponent while firing anymore cause you get damaged by your own shots, trying to do that from further away is simply impossible due to lack of space in most trucks and due to the low damage caused by your shots. So you can't use it in trucks suited for short range weapons and when using it in trucks for medium to long range weapons you are underpowered.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

^learn to drive backwards, while you face your enemy and shoot.

 

Your Twins recoil will make you go backwards faster then normal; while the impact force of your Twins on your enemy does only allow him to follow you wilth less speed then normal.

 

If you get confused by walls behind you, look at the ground patterns (grass/earth, rock, concrete or roads), they tell you where to go.

Edited February 25, 2017 by BlackWasp777

[Guest]

^learn to drive backwards, while you face your enemy and shoot.

Pretty sure someone talking about 'Circle of Death'ing (COD) a player already knows about shooting while driving backwards.

 

@@protesilaos_s  I fully understand where you're coming from with this, I myself love twins and have it fully MU'd.  However the new twins mechanics is not that hard to adapt.  You cannot do close combat with it at all now, so mounting it on wasp and getting up close and punching your enemies right in their squary tank face is no longer one of the satisfaction you get, but its more about dealing long blows from a mild distance now and constantly keeping in mind that clever players will now run towards you to make you bleed from your own blows a little, just like thunder players had it since like forever.

 

tl;dr : new mechanics means new gameplay style and adaptation

[wolverine848 13,097]

Pretty sure someone talking about 'Circle of Death'ing (COD) a player already knows about shooting while driving backwards.

 

@@protesilaos_s  I fully understand where you're coming from with this, I myself love twins and have it fully MU'd.  However the new twins mechanics is not that hard to adapt.  You cannot do close combat with it at all now, so mounting it on wasp and getting up close and punching your enemies right in their squary tank face is no longer one of the satisfaction you get, but its more about dealing long blows from a mild distance now and constantly keeping in mind that clever players will now run towards you to make you bleed from your own blows a little, just like thunder players had it since like forever.

 

tl;dr : new mechanics means new gameplay style and adaptation

At what rank is the alteration available?

[CooperO 7,956]

At what rank is the alteration available?

At the rank of Warrant Officer 4, at the moment m1 Twins becomes available also. The alteration to remove the splash damage is an m1 alteration. Obviously you can only purchase it if you already have m1 Twins (or a higher modification).

[wolverine848 13,097]

At the rank of Warrant Officer 4, at the moment m1 Twins becomes available also. The alteration to remove the splash damage is an m1 alteration. Obviously you can only purchase it if you already have m1 Twins (or a higher modification).

ok - so anyone with M1 twins (or better) can remove splash by buying the alteration.  Not a permanent nerf...

[LittleWillie 3,199]

ok - so anyone with M1 twins (or better) can remove splash by buying the alteration.  Not a permanent nerf...

Correct. So this change is no nerf at all. It is instead additional capability.

 

Since they made both Rico and Twins mid-range weapons that kill you fast it is time to reduce their impact force down to trivial levels if not remove it altogether.

 

At bare minimum make these changes.

 

Stock Twins - Splash damage as now, zero impact force.  M1 Alteration: Remove splash, return impact force to current level.

 

Stock Rico: Bounces around corners, impact force reduced by 75% or more. Alteration: Replace bounce with splash. Impact force at corrent levels.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Correct. So this change is no nerf at all. It is instead additional capability.

 

Since they made both Rico and Twins mid-range weapons that kill you fast it is time to reduce their impact force down to trivial levels if not remove it altogether.

 

At bare minimum make these changes.

 

Stock Twins - Splash damage as now, zero impact force.  M1 Alteration: Remove splash, return impact force to current level.

 

Stock Rico: Bounces around corners, impact force reduced by 75% or more. Alteration: Replace bounce with splash. Impact force at corrent levels.

Interesting. 

 

Then the Ricco's I'm facing must be using splash (I'm surprised they like that) as I'm getting battered all over the place in my Viking.

Makes it difficult to aim, and smoky requires a touch more finesse than say... TWINS.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Interesting. 

 

Then the Ricco's I'm facing must be using splash (I'm surprised they like that) as I'm getting battered all over the place in my Viking.

Makes it difficult to aim, and smoky requires a touch more finesse than say... TWINS.

No those were suggestions no the status quo.

 

IMO Both Rico and Twins need to have their impact force eliminated or at least reduced to negligible. Simly put these turret "do too much". As a smoky user if I want big impact force _I_ have to give up crit hits... which is Smoky's unique feature.  But Rico and Twoins? Give 'em splash, big vertical coverage, tons of impact, fast TTK rates long range ... 

 

Even with the +impact Smoky alteration I cannot disrupt a rico or a twins who have a bead on me because their impacts land several times each second. I can land only 2 hits in a bit over 3 seconds ... and my big impact option comesat the cost of no crit hits. What do Rico and Twins give up to have their huge impact effect? Nothing. 

 

I used to be able to engage these at longer ranges but no more.  Now their range effective is the same as mine. But both can hit me if I duck for cover either by bounce or by splash.  I have to be seen, can't afford to miss a single shot, and even then have a slower TTK.

 

There's no rhyme or reason to these changes.  Roll back everything to the Striker release date version.

 

 

 

Do the devs play favorites? You tell me.

Edited February 27, 2017 by LittleWillie

[Gabe2607 499]

No those were suggestions no the status quo.

 

IMO Both Rico and Twins need to have their impact force eliminated or at least reduced to negligible. Simly put these turret "do too much". As a smoky user if I want big impact force _I_ have to give up crit hits... which is Smoky's unique feature.  But Rico and Twoins? Give 'em splash, big vertical coverage, tons of impact, fast TTK rates long range ... 

 

Even with the +impact Smoky alteration I cannot disrupt a rico or a twins who have a bead on me because their impacts land several times each second. I can land only 2 hits in a bit over 3 seconds ... and my big impact option comesat the cost of no crit hits. What do Rico and Twins give up to have their huge impact effect? Nothing. 

 

I used to be able to engage these at longer ranges but no more.  Now their range effective is the same as mine. But both can hit me if I duck for cover either by bounce or by splash.  I have to be seen, can't afford to miss a single shot, and even then have a slower TTK.

 

There's no rhyme or reason to these changes.  Roll back everything to the Striker release date version.

 

 

 

Do the devs play favorites? You tell me.

Let me defend the category here :)

 

Talking about M2 (your level) and assuming TankiWiki is updated, Twins got to arrive to 70m distance to deliver minimum damage (137 HP approx.).

 

At that range Smoky already delivers almost full damage (470 HP approx.).

 

But you can start damage at 125m. At 8m/s it takes 7 secs for the Twins to arrive at shooting range (from 125m to 70m), during which you can shoot 4 times.

 

That is the difference. I started with Twins because I want "contact". You use Smoky to mainly stay away.

 

So if you manage to keep Twins at distance you win. Otherwise not.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Let me defend the category here :)

 

Talking about M2 (your level) and assuming TankiWiki is updated, Twins got to arrive to 70m distance to deliver minimum damage (137 HP approx.).

 

At that range Smoky already delivers almost full damage (470 HP approx.).

 

But you can start damage at 125m. At 8m/s it takes 7 secs for the Twins to arrive at shooting range (from 125m to 70m), during which you can shoot 4 times.

 

That is the difference. I started with Twins because I want "contact". You use Smoky to mainly stay away.

 

So if you manage to keep Twins at distance you win. Otherwise not.

Smoky (M2) does the following avg damages...

0-62m = 399 dmg + 20% critical = 425 avg damage

63-124m = 181 dmg + 20% critical = 250 avg damage

 

In your example, this would be a "perfect" situation - for smoky.

The reality is, if you are using twins, your not attacking a smoky head-on in say highways, or similar large open map. Bad choice in turret.

So in most cases you will either encounter each other at much closer ranges, or have cover so smoky is not hitting you repeatedly at long range.

 

Does your example include the alteration that extends Twins damage?  In Rio I've encountered Twins that can fire from edge of the block of buildings between bases to the other edge, with significant effect. This must be the Alteration.

[Gabe2607 499]

Smoky (M2) does the following avg damages...

0-62m = 399 dmg + 20% critical = 425 avg damage

63-124m = 181 dmg + 20% critical = 250 avg damage

 

In your example, this would be a "perfect" situation - for smoky.

The reality is, if you are using twins, your not attacking a smoky head-on in say highways, or similar large open map. Bad choice in turret.

So in most cases you will either encounter each other at much closer ranges, or have cover so smoky is not hitting you repeatedly at long range.

 

Does your example include the alteration that extends Twins damage?  In Rio I've encountered Twins that can fire from edge of the block of buildings between bases to the other edge, with significant effect. This must be the Alteration.

I am actually attacking head-on in Highways :) and hope to find some health box or isida on the bottom floor  :D. More problematic is Monte Carlo  :angry:  (unless one drugs).

 

I took numbers from http://en.tankiwiki.com/Smoky. If those numbers are old, then disregard.

 

And I am using the Alteration to avoid self/splash damage. Without it, Twins is frankly a joke. If one has to stay away from enemies, than better to get other turrets.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Pretty sure someone talking about 'Circle of Death'ing (COD) a player already knows about shooting while driving backwards.

hmm.. maybe ;)

before I wrote the proposal (last week), I checked his profile.. and by the crytals-xp ratio I thought it's a good hint.

You can learn COD'ing from the firebirds and especially freezers on the field very early.. but coming close to deal damage and then back up backwards while keep shooting and avoid hitting walls is very, very rare at those ranks (given my experience when I play an alt).

But anyways, maybe you are right ;)

[wolverine848 13,097]

I am actually attacking head-on in Highways :) and hope to find some health box or isida on the bottom floor  :D. More problematic is Monte Carlo  :angry:  (unless one drugs).

 

I took numbers from http://en.tankiwiki.com/Smoky. If those numbers are old, then disregard.

 

And I am using the Alteration to avoid self/splash damage. Without it, Twins is frankly a joke. If one has to stay away from enemies, than better to get other turrets.

Ah... bottom floor.  In that case you are likely to find cover and smoky won't be peppering you constantly. And on that map many of the shots will be using the 10% "weak damage" smoky has. Biggest danger is the one-shot-kill Shaft if it hits you as you spawn/run-for-cover.

 

My numbers were based on Smoky's damage being variable within the ranges. Between Max-Dmg range and Min-Dmg range Smoky's damage trails off considerably - working it's way down to "weak" 10% (~ 55 ) at 124m threshold.

[Mofuka 30]

Let me defend the category here :)

 

Talking about M2 (your level) and assuming TankiWiki is updated, Twins got to arrive to 70m distance to deliver minimum damage (137 HP approx.).

 

At that range Smoky already delivers almost full damage (470 HP approx.).

 

But you can start damage at 125m. At 8m/s it takes 7 secs for the Twins to arrive at shooting range (from 125m to 70m), during which you can shoot 4 times.

 

That is the difference. I started with Twins because I want "contact". You use Smoky to mainly stay away.

 

So if you manage to keep Twins at distance you win. Otherwise not.

 

You keep forgetting about the twins alt that doubles your range of damage. With that alt you shoot at 150m with 160 damage (M3). For comparison Thunder and Smoky have range of minimum damage of 130m. I think Twins with alt is better at long range than thunder and smoky. I even started using Twins on maps where I normally use Thunder, like Monte Carlo. Wave, Serpuhov. It never gets out of range. On every map I can shoot from my base to the other base. This alt has only pluses and no cons. It's also a lot of fun, because it's unusual. You have wasted your crystals on the wrong alteration.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Mofuka

[Gabe2607 499]

Ah... bottom floor.  In that case you are likely to find cover and smoky won't be peppering you constantly. And on that map many of the shots will be using the 10% "weak damage" smoky has. Biggest danger is the one-shot-kill Shaft if it hits you as you spawn/run-for-cover.

 

My numbers were based on Smoky's damage being variable within the ranges. Between Max-Dmg range and Min-Dmg range Smoky's damage trails off considerably - working it's way down to "weak" 10% (~ 55 ) at 124m threshold.

The only protection I got includes Shafts :)

 

Yes, Smoky is generally not a problem, but my point was: users getting Smoky want to maintain distance. So they should not complain about close encounters with Twins... that is what we strive for ;)

 

 

You keep forgetting about the twins alt that doubles your range of damage. With that alt you shoot at 150m with 160 damage (M3). For comparison Thunder and Smoky have range of minimum damage of 130m. I think Twins with alt is better at long range than thunder and smoky. I even started using Twins on maps where I normally use Thunder, like Monte Carlo. Wave, Serpuhov. It never gets out of range. On every map I can shoot from my base to the other base. This alt has only pluses and no cons. It's also a lot of fun, because it's unusual. You have wasted your crystals on the wrong alteration.

I played almost 1400 hours with Twins, which is also my only turret.

 

No offense, but if you use Twins to shoot from distance in Monte Carlo, Wave, Serpuhov... then I would not like to play in your team :P 

[LittleWillie 3,199]

The only protection I got includes Shafts :)

 

Yes, Smoky is generally not a problem, but my point was: users getting Smoky want to maintain distance. So they should not complain about close encounters with Twins... that is what we strive for ;)

 

 

I played almost 1400 hours with Twins, which is also my only turret.

 

No offense, but if you use Twins to shoot from distance in Monte Carlo, Wave, Serpuhov... then I would not like to play in your team :P

Sorry, you must not play Smoky. I strive to "send my love" kissing range. Accuracy is high at that range. (I use rhetoric here to make a point.)

 

Even under your scenario while I am trying to shoot at 50-80m Twins is impacting me several times a second. Remember what I said about accuracy? It ain't there at 70m while you are getting thrown off target 3 time between shots.

 

Smoky users have to aim each shot by eye and in most battle you miss once you lose.

 

AS most comments here have said, nowadays you see Twins using the range extender. Just like most Ricos use it. Thus my original point: Whereas Once Upon A Time Smoky had a sweet spot range advantage over these two, Nowadays these two fire and hit just as hard (indeed harder) at the same range.

 

Yesterday I ran across a Twins who did not have the range extender. You saw the blue balls coming your way then blinking out before they reached. It's so rare a sight nowadays it leaps out at you the odd times you do see it.

 

The over-arching point is this:

 

Last fall there was a dramatic re-tolling of everything. The self-heal to a flat 10% patch the one that flipped Hunter and Viking. That wwas the revolutionary change. We were told to expect fine-tuning after that. For awhile that is what happened.

 

All of  sudden Isida getr completely redesigned again (why??? no one knows) Twins and Rico get splash, vulcan loses it gyro and vertical reach .... revolutionary changes start appearing out of thin air again!

 

There is no way the implications to this could be measured before hand. Tanki is all of a sudden throwing caution to the winds and it ain't working out well.

Edited February 28, 2017 by LittleWillie

[wolverine848 13,097]

The only protection I got includes Shafts :)

 

Yes, Smoky is generally not a problem, but my point was: users getting Smoky want to maintain distance. So they should not complain about close encounters with Twins... that is what we strive for ;)

 

 

I played almost 1400 hours with Twins, which is also my only turret.

 

No offense, but if you use Twins to shoot from distance in Monte Carlo, Wave, Serpuhov... then I would not like to play in your team :P

As LittleWille says, many Twins users are equipping the range alteration. it is surprisingly effective.

 

On Rio a twins can stick it's front end out from the building on the beach-road and do significant damage to anyone doing same thing at other end.

[Gabe2607 499]

Sorry, you must not play Smoky. I strive to "send my love" kissing range. Accuracy is high at that range. (I use rhetoric here to make a point.)

 

Even under your scenario while I am trying to shoot at 50-80m Twins is impacting me several times a second. Remember what I said about accuracy? It ain't there at 70m while you are getting thrown off target 3 time between shots.

 

Smoky users have to aim each shot by eye and in most battle you miss once you lose.

 

AS most comments here have said, nowadays you see Twins using the range extender. Just like most Ricos use it. Thus my original point: Whereas Once Upon A Time Smoky had a sweet spot range advantage over these two, Nowadays these two fire and hit just as hard (indeed harder) at the same range.

 

Yesterday I ran across a Twins who did not have the range extender. You saw the blue balls coming your way then blinking out before they reached. It's so rare a sight nowadays it leaps out at you the odd times you do see it.

 

The over-arching point is this:

 

Last fall there was a dramatic re-tolling of everything. The self-heal to a flat 10% patch the one that flipped Hunter and Viking. That wwas the revolutionary change. We were told to expect fine-tuning after that. For awhile that is what happened.

 

All of  sudden Isida getr completely redesigned again (why??? no one knows) Twins and Rico get splash, vulcan loses it gyro and vertical reach .... revolutionary changes start appearing out of thin air again!

 

There is no way the implications to this could be measured before hand. Tanki is all of a sudden throwing caution to the winds and it ain't working out well.

You are right. I have zero experience in any other turret than Twins, so all info are interesting to me and welcome.

 

And Hunter flips anyway :(  I took it at the time because it was faster than Viking, not anymore :angry:

 

As LittleWille says, many Twins users are equipping the range alteration. it is surprisingly effective.

 

On Rio a twins can stick it's front end out from the building on the beach-road and do significant damage to anyone doing same thing at other end.

Personally I do not understand Twins with the range alteration. Why not getting rail/shaft or something else then, if the intention is to snipe or stay away? Twins will have to shoot for a minute to kill someone, hoping the target is particularly sleepy.

 

Especially in Rio I am "getting in touch" with these Twins and they die while I still have half life...

 

Cutting it short: Twins with self damage loses between 35 and 50% of KD, does not flip enemies anymore, does not go for flag, does not push off the cliff. In other words it is not Twins anymore.

[Mofuka 30]

 

No offense, but if you use Twins to shoot from distance in Monte Carlo, Wave, Serpuhov... then I would not like to play in your team :P

LOL Why not? If you have the range alt, Twins becomes a good long range turret. You still don't get what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the normal twins. You missed the point of the whole post.

 

My K/D on big maps with twins+ double range alt normally is over 1,50. You'd be delighted to be in my team.

 

 

It's funny because i met you exactly on those maps and you don't even have that alteration. Playing on those maps, I wouldn't want in my team someone with a simple short range twins. :D

[Gabe2607 499]

LOL Why not? If you have the range alt, Twins becomes a good long range turret. You still don't get what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the normal twins. You missed the point of the whole post.

 

My K/D on big maps with twins+ double range alt normally is over 1,50. You'd be delighted to be in my team.

 

 

It's funny because i met you exactly on those maps and you don't even have that alteration. Playing on those maps, I wouldn't want in my team someone with a simple short range twins. :D

Wondering who is going to get the flag...

 

With which account do you play Twins? Not with @Mofuka evidently...

[wolverine848 13,097]

Personally I do not understand Twins with the range alteration. Why not getting rail/shaft or something else then, if the intention is to snipe or stay away? Twins will have to shoot for a minute to kill someone, hoping the target is particularly sleepy.

 

Especially in Rio I am "getting in touch" with these Twins and they die while I still have half life...

 

Cutting it short: Twins with self damage loses between 35 and 50% of KD, does not flip enemies anymore, does not go for flag, does not push off the cliff. In other words it is not Twins anymore.

The Twins equipped with both alts (range + no splash damage) can play most ranges of combat except for very long range.

 

They can go for flag, run up to opponents and not worry about self-damage. Plus - they can beat a smoky at medium range because of the impact force. The damage may not seem like a lot, but, when a smoky is missing ~ 1/3 of it's shots due to the constant barrage, it begins to add up.

 

Smoky used to be one of the best medium ranged turrets. It is still good. But the constant nerfs (critical, re-load time) to smoky combined with alterations for Twins and Ricco make it no longer stand out so much at medium range.

Smoky is outclassed at short range by Firebird/Freeze/Isida/Hammer and outclassed at long range by shaft/rail/Thunder.

 

They've squeezed Smoky into a very narrow range of competitiveness - far end of medium. All the other ranges have turrets that do much better.

[Mofuka 30]

Wondering who is going to get the flag...

 

With which account do you play Twins? Not with @Mofuka evidently...

With account tankomate1. I recently met you at monte carlo and wave for a brief, we even had conversation. You have short memory apparently.