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Patch Update #441 - Changes to Isida, Hammer and Shaft, and other changes


theFiringHand
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Your calculations are terribly wrong. I forgot the exact old stats, but if it was 500 dps and now is 700, that's 40% boost, not 20%.

 

And if they could make it doing 1400 dps for 2,5 seconds, I'd agree at the second. I wish there was such alteration.

 

 

That's right, now when I'm playing with isida most of the time I'm killing, not healing. Team mates get mad, because I don't heal them enough, but I prefer to get quick easy kills, than heal, because of the high DPS. So if the devs wanted to make it mostly a healing machine, they messed it big time, because now it's more of a killing machine.

 

As you say  and as you can see above I did have an error ... but so did you :D . Both of us were off by the same magnitude, +/-10%. So, +30% DPS (for my Isida certainly) at a cost of -44% firing time.

 

As for your second sentence you did not multiply by 130% or even 140% but by 200%. You addded an "orange" extension to the "apple" change Tanki made. But take your point .. You would welcome a dose of double-apple ... and I would consider that double bad..

 

As for point 2: Yes.

 

When I started playing it was common to see my Isida teammate fly past me, at 5% health, i his lust to attack the enemy. SElf-heal was then knocked down to 10% and all those jerk Isidas vanished. The Isidas left were people who like the healer role and teamwork. In the last week som e of the jerks have reappeared - though not nearly as common as before.

Edited by LittleWillie

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When I started playing it was common to see my Isida teammate fly past me, at 5% health, i his lust to attack the enemy. SElf-heal was then knocked down to 10% and all those jerk Isidas vanished. The Isidas left were people who like the healer role and teamwork. In the last week som e of the jerks have reappeared - though not nearly as common as before.

Why you call them jerks? If one is equipped with Isida doesn't mean that he should heal everyone all the time. Its a weapon that can kill, and by killing enemies you contribute to the team as much as everyone else who doesn't have a weapon with healing ability, especially now with this high DPS. Judging by your miserable 8.4 hours with isida, you are not willing to get in the role of a healer, yet you judge other people for not healing you. Now that's being a jerk.

At 5% health you are almost dead, it would take a lot of energy and time to restore your health, it's not worth it, he better spend his energy elsewhere. You have a lot learn about this game.

 

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Why you call them jerks? If one is equipped with Isida doesn't mean that he should heal everyone all the time. Its a weapon that can kill, and by killing enemies you contribute to the team as much as everyone else who doesn't have a weapon with healing ability, especially now with this high DPS. Judging by your miserable 8.4 hours with isida, you are not willing to get in the role of a healer, yet you judge other people for not healing you. Now that's being a jerk.

At 5% health you are almost dead, it would take a lot of energy and time to restore your health, it's not worth it, he better spend his energy elsewhere. You have a lot learn about this game.

I call them jerks because a player in a team game that is only out for himself is a jerk. Not only that, he's a fool. See below.

 

As for my playing time with Isida ... what a jerk comment you made ... Sergeant. At your rank you cannot possibly know anything. (See how easy and wrong that kind of bullshoot is?)

 

Turns out one person (that's me) can play more than one account (that's LittleWillie).  I have another account which started Firebird but changed full-time to Isida somewhere in the SGT ranks. And I kick ass while playing it. I am a very very strong Isida player, How do I know? I play the game and have eyes.

 

Based on your comment that it is not worth it to heal a team mate at low health... it sounds as though you've never played Isida in your life. Turns out you get points and Crystals for healing team-mates ... and energy regenerates. It is possible to heal a team mate, then move forward recharging en route, then still attack the enemy.

 

If you want to try to belittle me in public ... don't bring your knife to a gunfight.

Edited by LittleWillie

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Last night in Rio an isida with < full health kept running off toward enemy base - by itself - while half our team needed healing.

 

I know from experience you can't heal everyone - all the time. But I had no idea what that Isida was trying to accomplish.

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M3?

 

Was 544 for 9 seconds.

Now is 708 for 5 seconds.   So...

 

(708-544) / 544 = 30%.      9-5 leaves 4 second reduction.  4/9 = 44%.  So a 30% increase in dmg vs a 44% drop in energy pool.

There is another way to do the calculation

Before (last 2 months): 544 HP * 9  = 4896 HP

Now: 708 HP * 5 = 3540 HP

If you compare this then its 28% loss per pool of energy for the new turret.

However if you want to compare on 9 second game-play, which allow a partial reload of 2 seconds for the new turret, then you gain more damage (providing that you're still alive).

The reload of energy is 100 per second, 2 seconds will be equivalent to 200 energy which is equivalent to one second for attack = 708 HP, so 5 second attack + 2 seconds reload + one more second attack (I'll spare the last second remaining because it is ridiculously too small) this make a total of 708 HP * 5  + 708 * 1 = 4248 HP. So now you will have a loss of 13% for the new turret.

 

If you attack a medium hull (Viking, Hunter and Dictator : M3 and M3+) with a M3 Isida

Viking    M3    M3+

HP    2529.41    3000

It would take the following amount of time to kill it:

New Isida    3.6s    4.2s

Interim Isida    4.6s    5.5s

 

So in less than a shoot (5s et 9s) both could kill an unprotected M3 and M3+ Viking Hull. The new Isida can do it by one second faster. So yes the new version is more efficient (+30%) than the interim variant on a 5 second gameplay against hull with less than 3540.

 

Il would be interesting to compare against Freeze and Firebird.

Edited by Viking4s

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I call them jerks because a player in a team game that is only out for himself is a jerk. Not only that, he's a fool. See below.

 

Only out for himself? How did you decide that? By your logic everyone who's in a battle with a weapon different than Isida is a selfish jerk, because why not take Isida and heal his team mates?

 

Funny thing is that you think you have knowledge and arguments, while actually your logic and calculations are always wrong. It's a waste of time to argue with someone like you.

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There is another way to do the calculation

Before (last 2 months): 544 HP * 9  = 4896 HP

Now: 708 HP * 5 = 3540 HP

If you compare this then its 28% loss per pool of energy for the new turret.

However if you want to compare on 9 second game-play, which allow a partial reload of 2 seconds for the new turret, then you gain more damage (providing that you're still alive).

The reload of energy is 100 per second, 2 seconds will be equivalent to 200 energy which is equivalent to one second for attack = 708 HP, so 5 second attack + 2 seconds reload + one more second attack (I'll spare the last second remaining because it is ridiculously too small) this make a total of 708 HP * 5  + 708 * 1 = 4248 HP. So now you will have a loss of 13% for the new turret.

 

If you attack a medium hull (Viking, Hunter and Dictator : M3 and M3+) with a M3 Isida

Viking    M3    M3+

HP    2529.41    3000

It would take the following amount of time to kill it:

New Isida    3.6s    4.2s

Interim Isida    4.6s    5.5s

 

So in less than a shoot (5s et 9s) both could kill an unprotected M3 and M3+ Viking Hull. The new Isida can do it by one second faster. So yes the new version is more efficient (+30%) than the interim variant on a 5 second gameplay against hull with less than 3540.

 

Il would be interesting to compare against Freeze and Firebird.

 

 

The turret reloads even as it fires?  So the pool of energy listed is not actually accurate?  5 sec really = 7 seconds attack before dry?

(In actual use I find new turret runs dry quite quickly - and - if a team game you then have to wait a long time to heal)

 

You gave numbers above that accounted for "partial reload" of the new turret. But I don't see you accounting for the "partial reload" of the old turret.  it would be 9 seconds + __ seconds?  So it's total damage would go up as well right?

 

Additionally, the old Isida healed itself as it attacked, so potentially it could survive longer - even the 10% might make a difference in survival.

 

In DM yes, the new isida is more efficient and kills quickly. But for team battles it is not as flexible. Devs seem to have swung from...

crappy at DM/great at team    all the way to    great at DM/ so-so in teams...

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Only out for himself? How did you decide that? By your logic everyone who's in a battle with a weapon different than Isida is a selfish jerk, because why not take Isida and heal his team mates?

 

Funny thing is that you think you have knowledge and arguments, while actually your logic and calculations are always wrong. It's a waste of time to argue with someone like you.

Everyone in team battle should be playing to strengths. So most of the other turrets are there to damage/kill. freeze also there to slow enemy down. pretty sure none of them (except Isida) heal.

 

If an Isida is playing Team Battle and it spends most of it's time running around attacking, then yes - it could be considered selfish.

 

Ya wanna kill tanks (most of the time)? Play DM.

Ya wanna benefit from having a team?  Be prepared to do some healing.

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What are you doing developers... If it aint broke don't fix it. You've ruined the game and time spent by gamers on developing their game style...What have you done with Isida as an example! Let the gamers decide, we fund your pay cheque after all... no more cash spent on this front.

Edited by r_Damn_Slow0
Post cleaned. Thank you for keeping the language used on the forum free from insults and colorful vocabulary

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The turret reloads even as it fires?  So the pool of energy listed is not actually accurate?  5 sec really = 7 seconds attack before dry?

(In actual use I find new turret runs dry quite quickly - and - if a team game you then have to wait a long time to heal)

 

You gave numbers above that accounted for "partial reload" of the new turret. But I don't see you accounting for the "partial reload" of the old turret.  it would be 9 seconds + __ seconds?  So it's total damage would go up as well right?

 

Additionally, the old Isida healed itself as it attacked, so potentially it could survive longer - even the 10% might make a difference in survival.

 

In DM yes, the new isida is more efficient and kills quickly. But for team battles it is not as flexible. Devs seem to have swung from...

crappy at DM/great at team    all the way to    great at DM/ so-so in teams...

You misread, new isida:

5 second fire (from 100% to 0% - 20% per second) => 708 HP * 5 = 3540 HP

2 second partial reload (10% per second up to 20%) => zero damage because reloading

1 second fire (from 20% to 0%) => 708 * 1 = 708 HP

_____________________________

708 HP * 5  + 708 * 1 = 4248 HP (in 5+2+1 = 8) I spare the one second to round to 9 seconds

 

We are not comparing survival but Attack strength.

Survival will be far more complicated and based on skills. Before, as an original Isida, finish an encounter with a victorious outcome with no HP lost, even having been submitted to heavy fire, so you could go to another victim, and take a whole team one by one.

The interim Isida could not reach that potential, and its 9 second to strike made him very vulnerable. Enhance the new fast attacking mechanism. Opponent such as medium hull have less than 4,2 second to kill before you kill them. Is the 1 second, covered by the vampirism protecting effect, I guess yes, at least in the original Isida, but not with the interim Isida.

 

Edit: sorry, completely misread the end.

I guess yes DM is not for isida anymore. Its role wase  redefined with the last update.

Edited by Viking4s

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If an Isida is playing Team Battle and it spends most of it's time running around attacking, then yes - it could be considered selfish.

 

This doesn't make sense to me. He's contributing to the team by killing enemies, just like anyone else, but only because he has healing ability makes him selfish? Doesn't sound fair.

Weather you will use your energy to kill an enemy, or will heal a team mate who will eventually kill an enemy, is almost the same. Healing is strategical and depends on the situation, sometimes is better to heal, other time to kill. And if you attack more than you heal doesn't make you selfish. When playing with Isida I heal like 40% of the time, which is not little. Depends on the game and the team mates, I could sometimes heal a lot, other time at all, if it's worth healing and I have spare energy, I'd heal, if I see that it's a waste of time healing them, I wouldn't. And if I pass someone at 5% health, it would be for a reason. My goal is to always win the battle, not to waste my time and lose.

 

 

 

 

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You missread, new isida:

5 second fire (from 100% to 0% - 20% per second) => 708 HP * 5 = 3540 HP

2 second partial reload (10% per second up to 20%) => zero damage because reloading

1 second fire (from 20% to 0%) => 708 * 1 = 708 HP

_____________________________

708 HP * 5  + 708 * 1 = 4248 HP (in 5+2+1 = 8) I spare the one second to round to 9 seconds

 

We are not comparing survival but Attack strength.

Survival will be far more complicated and based on skills. Before, as an original isida, finish an encounter with a victorious outcome with no HP lost, even having been submitted to heavy fire, so you could go to another victim, and take a whole team one by one.

The interim Isida could not reach that potential, and its 9 second to strike made him very vulnerable. Enhance the new fast attacking mechanism. Opponent such as medium hull have less than 4,2 second to kill before you kill them. Is the 1 second, covered by the vampirism protecting effect, I guess yes, at least in the original Isida, but not with the interim Isida.

 

I guess yes DM is not for isida anymore. Its role wase  redefined with the last update.

OK - thanks for highlighting what I missed.

 

And I think you misread my last part. ;)

I think the "new" (current) Isida is better in DM (than old one) because it deals dmg much faster and thus is less subject to kill-steals.

But this also affects it's use in Team Battles - the quick drain makes it less flexible for doing both.

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This doesn't make sense to me. He's contributing to the team by killing enemies, just like anyone else, but only because he has healing ability makes him selfish? Doesn't sound fair.

Weather you will use your energy to kill an enemy, or will heal a team mate who will eventually kill an enemy, is almost the same. Healing is strategical and depends on the situation, sometimes is better to heal, other time to kill. And if you attack more than you heal doesn't make you selfish. When playing with Isida I heal like 40% of the time, which is not little. Depends on the game and the team mates, I could sometimes heal a lot, other time at all, if it's worth healing and I have spare energy, I'd heal, if I see that it's a waste of time healing them, I wouldn't. And if I pass someone at 5% health, it would be for a reason. My goal is to always win the battle, not to waste my time and lose.

As I said previously in a Team Battle each tank should play to it's strength. An isida can do a quick kill - but - then has to re-charge.

It is really only good for one kill then must rest. If you ignore Healing (at least 50% of it strength) then you are not using it's full potential.

 

In a team battle an Isida benefits greatly because there would be team-mates that can inflict damage from afar - unlike the Isida.

So Isida's need to return the favor.

 

Let me put it another way...

Join a Team battle with Field-Marshals and up with an Isida. Run around attacking, then resting (since you are dry in 5 seconds), and healing "when you have spare energy" and see how welcome you are.

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So now you will have a loss of 13% for the new turret.

[...] So yes the new version is more efficient (+30%) than the interim variant on a 5 second gameplay against hull with less than 3540.

Sorry, but using a specifically selected tank without any protection is not a good example. Many tanks use protection (against Isida) and/or armor. And there are also heavier tanks than Viking. Your calculation with "4,2 second" does not fully reflect reality of the game.

 

Isida may be more efficient against Hornets etc. now, but that is the only positive difference after the update.

 

Combined with the fact that it cannot heal itself, the possibility to make more damage before being killed is limited, compared to the "interim" version. In other words, with the same style of play, I suspect the K/D ratio now would be worse than before.

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As I said previously in a Team Battle each tank should play to it's strength. An isida can do a quick kill - but - then has to re-charge.

It is really only good for one kill then must rest. If you ignore Healing (at least 50% of it strength) then you are not using it's full potential.

 

In a team battle an Isida benefits greatly because there would be team-mates that can inflict damage from afar - unlike the Isida.

So Isida's need to return the favor.

 

Let me put it another way...

Join a Team battle with Field-Marshals and up with an Isida. Run around attacking, then resting (since you are dry in 5 seconds), and healing "when you have spare energy" and see how welcome you are.

That applies to all weapons, every weapon needs to recharge. How many tanks you can kill with one charge of freeze or firebird?

 

I don't care about other's reactions. There will always be someone complaining because you don't heal him, or you heal the other more than him. That's because they are selfish and want to achieve high K/D in the expense of you.

 

I'm already a Commander btw, and normally most of the people in battle are with legend rank.

Edited by Mofuka

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Please stop complain about the new Isida. If you don't like Isida, then, don't use it.

What if Isida is the only M3 my son's account has? He MU'ed it to 43/50 leaving all other equipment in M2 and lower. There are missions of DM, so when playing he gets D/L smaller than he used to, because he cannot kill two tanks in one magazine. And after emptying the magazine, he has to wait a long time before he can attack again. In order to compete, he uses a lot of drugs just to stay alive.

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What if Isida is the only M3 my son's account has? He MU'ed it to 43/50 leaving all other equipment in M2 and lower. There are missions of DM, so when playing he gets D/L smaller than he used to, because he cannot kill two tanks in one magazine. And after emptying the magazine, he has to wait a long time before he can attack again. In order to compete, he uses a lot of drugs just to stay alive.

If my son was using drugs, I'd be concerned too. :lol:

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What if Isida is the only M3 my son's account has? He MU'ed it to 43/50 leaving all other equipment in M2 and lower. There are missions of DM, so when playing he gets D/L smaller than he used to, because he cannot kill two tanks in one magazine. And after emptying the magazine, he has to wait a long time before he can attack again. In order to compete, he uses a lot of drugs just to stay alive.

You mean he has a m2 hull but decided to go for m4 isida?

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Sorry, but using a specifically selected tank without any protection is not a good example. Many tanks use protection (against Isida) and/or armor. And there are also heavier tanks than Viking. Your calculation with "4,2 second" does not fully reflect reality of the game.

 

Isida may be more efficient against Hornets etc. now, but that is the only positive difference after the update.

 

Combined with the fact that it cannot heal itself, the possibility to make more damage before being killed is limited, compared to the "interim" version. In other words, with the same style of play, I suspect the K/D ratio now would be worse than before.

Correct - protections are important.  Assume DA & DD cancel each other out...

 

The more protection involved the worse it gets for the "new" Isida because it needs to recharge even more.

 

Around 37% Protection is the balance where they are equal.

The "old" isida only needs to start recharging against an M3 Viking at 50% protection.

At 50% protection it takes "old" Isida ~ 10.5 seconds to kill.  New isida takes 11.75 seconds.  And during that time old isida has healed by 250.

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Sorry, but using a specifically selected tank without any protection is not a good example. Many tanks use protection (against Isida) and/or armor. And there are also heavier tanks than Viking. Your calculation with "4,2 second" does not fully reflect reality of the game.

 

Isida may be more efficient against Hornets etc. now, but that is the only positive difference after the update.

 

Combined with the fact that it cannot heal itself, the possibility to make more damage before being killed is limited, compared to the "interim" version. In other words, with the same style of play, I suspect the K/D ratio now would be worse than before.

When you want to compare changes in a complex game like TO you need to start somewhere. If you want to add another layer (or more) to the calculation, please do it.

 

The thing is you will have the same trend (with isida original, interim and new) if your enemy as protection, the new one will be still able to kill it faster or deal damage faster. The tipping point would be when you reach the max damage for 5 seconds of the new turret. Then you can also compare with drugs and without - you will find original perform better or the new one. Good luck with that.

 

Isida interim was definitely worse than both Original and New. I agree with you in that. All I see is that you want to be killproof in any encounter, well no, it's not possible, you will have to define - based on the knowledge your building here - when to attack, what to attack and how to attack.

 

Most of all the game for isida has changed, Hazel was very clear on it, Isida original was OP and this had to be changed. So start the grieving process, I started it, and go on with the game.

Edited by Viking4s
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