Patch Update #441 - Changes to Isida, Hammer and Shaft, and other changes

[wolverine848 13,097]

If you ran into an enemy with protection with old Isida, you would still die no matter how long your charge was, because the DPS was so low. Tanks are destroyed in seconds in this game. With the new Isida, you have shorter charge, but you would get in a lot more damage before you died because you deal damage faster. That is my whole point. 

 

Previously Isida might have taken longer to destroy enemy, but it had a better chance of overcomming the Module Protection because with 9 seconds attack it did more overall damage before running dry. This is key - more damage overall.

 

The 10% healing by itself does not sound like much (I wanted 20% but whatever). However the self-healing allowed the Isida to survive longer and use more of it's energy pool. Titans would benefit even more with their extra health.

 

My understanding is the game dishes out damage like this in quarter-second intervals.  One or two of those might be enough to finish off an opponent before the Isida dies. Then if it manages to surprise another tank it can self-heal even more.

I'll wait while you look up my hours on Isida ;)

Edited February 21, 2017 by wolverine848

[RIDDLER_8 5,552]

Why not make Damage 504 and make healing 840 ? after all, Isida main role is healing, NOT killing.

 

why not make Damage 504 and healing 504 as well ? because the new Isida is way OP just like the old one.

 

Riddler_8 would you stop treying to get the old Isida back ? i'm so so sick of it.  -_- 

 

Dovloppers now should nerf the new Isida.

Please stop complain about the new Isida. If you don't like Isida, then, don't use it.

[wolverine848 13,097]

An idea to prevent spawn-killing from shafts came to me while reading the 48-hr supply experiment.

 

Currently a tank re-spawning is a "ghost" - can move but not use supplies or attack - for few seconds.

What if that time was lengthened a bit (few seconds) - enough to give tanks in most situations a chance to get under cover.

Caveat - as soon as the re-spawning tank hits a supply key or space-bar it solidifies and is now a normal combatant.

 

Extra time can't be enough to move far toward enemy base, but enough to get out of line-of-sight from enemy snipers.

 

Of course some maps this won't make a difference - if little/no cover available...

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

 

As this is a cone mechanism and not an auto-aim mechanism, making a different vertical cone compared to the horizontal would make the mechanism less consistent/standardized and that this will happen is rather unlikely. The cone nerf should get people to buy the M1 alt. (pattern of getting preupdate stat by alt.), but you have to consider that this one got nerfed by a -10° cone as well, so it's still not really convincing.

 

Isida's damage mag got nerfed and it is true that you have to choose now which mode you want to take, as you cannot use both efficiently. But basically there is not much to choose anymore, because you are not competitive with a short-ranger turret, that can just kill one tank and then wait a long time again, especially if you are not even able to damage multiple tanks at once (unlike Freeze and Fire). Isida was not and will not be able to compete with Freeze and Fire.

 

Here is an overview over the stats changes (omits selfhealing tho), if there are doubts about it:

 

As the so called vampirism is now removed and as it has a very limited range and as Isida is no stormtrooper, it doesn't make sense to go for a distinct attack. But if you still do it, then you better take a light hull to be able to either retreat quickly to reload again or go for a purposeful suicide attack in order to not waste your time reloading.

 

To me, healing seems to be the only real option for Isida that is left. And by chance it is an alteration that is better with it here (OTOH you have be sure that you don't need to damage someone if you take it).

 

Isida used to be a turret that if it advanced forward, then it came together with other tanks (for healing purposes), which means in general that it survives longer, which also means that you could unload your mag, especially if you mount it on a Viking like I do. Now it doesn't make much sense to switch between the modes, though I'd expect a two-mode-turret to be especially powerful if the two are combined, like it is with Striker.

+1

[Apex_Predator 537]

Guys i'm telling you, the new Isida is bad and like the old OP turret, please nerf it and instead buff it's healing.

 

Isida is a healing wapon for god sake !

 

if people want to join DM then don't buy Isida in the first place.

 

Nerf Isida Damage, and buff it's healing.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Apex_Predator

[LittleWillie 3,199]

 

 

I thought isida was balanced as it was (it maybe could have used a little more heal power), and I see no reason to buff (Most damage of a short range turret) it.

 

 

No worries then. It was nerfed not buffed.

 

Maybe because playing isida in a bad team is already enough. You don't need to make it even more team-dependent. Maybe, just maybe, because with these changes isida will finally be able to do Death Matches again. Maybe because isida if its healing is less than the damage another tank takes (which is doubtful) isida might stop being always target number one.

 

I don't know, though. These are just a few hypotheses.

Isida is now worse at DM than it was before. It has been made even more team-dependent.

 

Previously Isida might have taken longer to destroy enemy, but it had a better chance of overcomming the Module Protection because with 9 seconds attack it did more overall damage before running dry. This is key - more damage overall.

 

The 10% healing by itself does not sound like much (I wanted 20% but whatever). However the self-healing allowed the Isida to survive longer and use more of it's energy pool. Titans would benefit even more with their extra health.

 

For ages I've argued against two common opinions on the Isida of 10 days ago. (1) that it was helpless in DM (it wasn't) and that 10% self-heal was "meaningless" (it wasn't).

 

My K/D has always been higher in DM than in team play. In DM I am out for myself. In teams I am out for my team. I've has successful team games with a K/D under 0.10. In DM my K/D was always above 1.0.

 

Playes called 10% self-heal worthless because after attacking they were no longer near 100% health. Well with a 10% self-heal I survived hundreds of encounters with only a sliver of hit points left. It was the self-heal that spelled the difference between killing and dying. 

 

I agree with you fully. The added DPS does not "pay for" the lower energy pool while attacking. Then atop that nerf add the loss of self-heal and the loss of firing angle.

 

All based on what reason?  If the player base has been screaming about "overpowered Isidas running amok" I missed hearing them.

 

Please stop complain about the new Isida. If you don't like Isida, then, don't use it.

Based on this philosophy you should not have left any comment I've seen by you, ever.  :rolleyes:

Edited February 21, 2017 by LittleWillie

[DDriggs00 7]

No worries then. It was nerfed not buffed.

So... Removing a small 10% self-healing effect, and replacing it with a massive damage boost (making it the most powerful short-range turret) is a nerf? Wow!

[Akame 4,578]

Firstly, I agree that Hammer DEFINITELY needed a nerf, although I really hate how they added the ricochet effect.  Hammer is not Ricochet.

 

I thought isida was balanced as it was (it maybe could have used a little more heal power), and I see no reason to buff (Most damage of a short range turret) it.

 

As for shaft, I thought it was already about perfect, so there was no need to buff it.

Hammer does not have a ricocheting effect. I hate when people don't know what they are talking about and think they are correct.

[DDriggs00 7]

Hammer does not have a ricocheting effect. I hate when people don't know what they are talking about and think they are correct.

 

I see...

 

To make Hammer more interesting, we’ll also be giving it a new mechanic... ricocheting pellets.

Edited February 21, 2017 by DDriggs00

[Akame 4,578]

I see...

U said ricochet effect, referring to ricochets ricocheting mechanism, which means to continually bounce of surfaces, hammers pellets only reflect off a surface once, and nothing is wrong, its a great update, not a negative one, u said hammer is not ricochet, yes it still is nowhere near it.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Akame

[wolverine848 13,097]

So... Removing a small 10% self-healing effect, and replacing it with a massive damage boost (making it the most powerful short-range turret) is a nerf? Wow!

What is your definition of "massive"?  About the same amount that they reduced the attack duration?

 

So a "massive" increase in DPS compensates for a "massive" reduction in attack duration + loss of self-healing?

 

Do the math and let me know if the damage potential is now 1) More 2) Equal or 3) Less than before.

[ZSU-23-4-Gundish 0]

The issue with removing the self-healing of Isida was the strategy of, if you got shot while trying to get to the other side, you could 'grab health' from some unsuspecting person, and then try a fast run to the flag grab and go. That.is.gone. Once you got to any decent level the person you just killed knows where you are and where you are going so it had to be done and quick. Might as well be a Firebird or a Freeze. And as you get up in levels, it is so so hard to get close to the enemy without getting one-shotted by a railgun on double damage. I got so sick of it, I created another account that was railgun ONLY and used it to get proficient, then when a sale came up bought the highest railgun at that level (m2) on the top account (this one). Then waited for 100 supply sale and bought two times, then just railgun one shot anybody without double protection on large maps. Railguns (will the people using railguns) get so accurate at higher levels, there is just no room for mistake or lags.

 

The other issue is unless you spend a lot of (or any) real money, you can't just drop a weapon when it gets nerfed. Now if you could sell a turret/hull/protection back for all those crystals, and something else, that would be a nice thing. Honestly this should be a given, we all know this problem.

 

Isida always was a problem in DM, but there wasn't missions back when I bought the Isida, back when crystals dropped without a mark.

 

(edit - I got some redundant redunancies in what I typed but I think you get it).

Edited February 22, 2017 by ZSU-23-4-Gundish

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

Previously Isida might have taken longer to destroy enemy, but it had a better chance of overcomming the Module Protection because with 9 seconds attack it did more overall damage before running dry. This is key - more damage overall.

 

The 10% healing by itself does not sound like much (I wanted 20% but whatever). However the self-healing allowed the Isida to survive longer and use more of it's energy pool. Titans would benefit even more with their extra health.

 

My understanding is the game dishes out damage like this in quarter-second intervals.  One or two of those might be enough to finish off an opponent before the Isida dies. Then if it manages to surprise another tank it can self-heal even more.

I'll wait while you look up my hours on Isida ;)

Except that your Isida will be dead before those 9 seconds are up, unless your enemy is AFK. Again, more charge doesn't help you if you're dead . . .

 

Playes called 10% self-heal worthless because after attacking they were no longer near 100% health. Well with a 10% self-heal I survived hundreds of encounters with only a sliver of hit points left. It was the self-heal that spelled the difference between killing and dying. 

With the new Isida, you would survive with way more than a sliver of health left, because you'd destroy your enemy faster and receive less damage to begin with.

 

The issue with removing the self-healing of Isida was the strategy of, if you got shot while trying to get to the other side, you could 'grab health' from some unsuspecting person, and then try a fast run to the flag grab and go. That.is.gone. 

 

The other issue is unless you spend a lot of (or any) real money, you can't just drop a weapon when it gets nerfed. Now if you could sell a turret/hull/protection back for all those crystals, and something else, that would be a nice thing. Honestly this should be a given, we all know this problem.

You could only do that before October 2016. I don't know what your definition of "grabbing health" is with Oct 2016 - Feb 2017 Isida, since you had to focus on an enemy for some time before you would even notice your health bar increase by a pixel. Regarding selling weapons, I agree, but this doesn't apply very much in this case as Isida was already one of the cheapest turrets at a "substantial level" (I mean M2 and M3).

Edited February 22, 2017 by ThirdOnion

[wolverine848 13,097]

Except that your Isida will be dead before those 9 seconds are up, unless your enemy is AFK. Again, more charge doesn't help you if you're dead . . .

Possibly - or - possibly not.

 

I've used Isida A LOT before the change. And used it since.  I prefer it with longer energy pool. Maybe you're not using it in CTF or CP much.

I am. I dislike DM. So I can tell you from experience that the larger energy pool is more useful.

 

But I'm not here to convince you of what you should like...

[a7x_Pedro48 13,999]

Bigx, I only see one solution to your problems. If you don't like enemies that use Shaft, don't play in large map. You mentionned Highways. This map is a nightmare if you hate Shaft.

 

Avoid playing in large maps.

 

Then you will tell map that there are also Shafts in Serpuhov or Rio. But the map is less wide open, there are plenty of places to hide from a Shaft.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

So... Removing a small 10% self-healing effect, and replacing it with a massive damage boost (making it the most powerful short-range turret) is a nerf? Wow!

AS wolverine said, do the math.  When math is the issue, use math not flowery adjectives like "massive".  

 

Except that your Isida will be dead before those 9 seconds are up, unless your enemy is AFK. Again, more charge doesn't help you if you're dead . . .

No, your Isida would be dead, mine would be moving on to kill my second victim. Once again the math says anything I can kill today in 5 seconds I could kill in 6 seconds before .. not 9. Six >>>>> (6) <<<<<. 1,2 x 5 = 6. This does not offset added energy burn. Not on paper. Not in actual game play.

 

Possibly - or - possibly not.

 

I've used Isida A LOT before the change. And used it since.  I prefer it with longer energy pool. Maybe you're not using it in CTF or CP much.

I am. I dislike DM. So I can tell you from experience that the larger energy pool is more useful.

 

But I'm not here to convince you of what you should like...

As you say, theory and practice agree. The new Isida is weaker than the old one. It is noticeable.

 

Bumped a couple more Isidas to death today playing my shooter accounts. 

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

I've used Isida A LOT before the change. And used it since.  I prefer it with longer energy pool. Maybe you're not using it in CTF or CP much.

I am. I dislike DM. So I can tell you from experience that the larger energy pool is more useful.

We're talking about the Isida in the past several months, right? Just wanted to get that out of the way. The longer energy pool allowed you to heal AND attack, but you did both rather poorly. Now you have to choose between healing and attacking, but you do both better, just not at the same time. Your playstyle is probably different. I like excelling in both but only being able to do one at a time. In my opinion this is a good thing, because being a support tank you should not be attacking while your allies are around, and if you are alone, you should obviously be attacking instead of healing.

 

No, your Isida would be dead, mine would be moving on to kill my second victim. Once again the math says anything I can kill today in 5 seconds I could kill in 6 seconds before .. not 9. Six >>>>> (6) <<<<<. 1,2 x 5 = 6. This does not offset added energy burn. Not on paper. Not in actual game play.

Damage done in 5 seconds with current Isida: 5 x 700 = 3500 HP. Time taken to do 3500 HP with old Isida: 3500 / 500 = 7 seconds. That's 2 seconds or 40% longer. Time taken for Freeze to do 3500 HP: 3500 / 640 = 5.46 seconds. Time taken for Twins to do 3500 HP: 3500 / 645 = 5.43 seconds. If you include the splash damage it would take old Isida 5.97 seconds to destroy the Twins. 5.43 is less than 5.46 which is less than 7.

Yeah, I think your Isida would be dead, provided you are using the same hull, assuming your opponents are stupid.

Edited February 22, 2017 by ThirdOnion

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

A funny thing - the October re-balance brought a shorter clip reload but a longer shot reload to Hammer. Now the opposite has happened. I imagine Hammer is more like the old Hammer.

[r_carlo1234 118]

Isida needs 1 extra second for damage so it con do well in 1v1. Also make a healed tank turn green and a tank getting damaged turn violet so others know what is going on, for example an immortal Vulcan will turn green when getting healed by a hiding Isida. That way all three melee turrets will make other tanks change colors. And it will also make Isida more vulnerable, which should be the price of having a turret that can attack and heal.

 

Hammers with the faster shots, improved vertical aiming and ricochet is OP. Your explanation for the change sounded as if you were nerfing the turret, when you actually were buffing it.

 

Rico, Vulcan and Shaft are also OP. All making hulls weaker, that I always feel forced to use DA or be more inclined on using heavy hulls.

Edited February 22, 2017 by r_carlo1234

[LittleWillie 3,199]

My Isida did 119/tick last week. Now it does 155. Before I had ~36 ticks. Now I have 20. I kill slightly faster but I burn through my ammo much faster.

 

It has no self-healing now.

 

It has a narrower easier-to-miss firing angle now.

 

I've played with the change and my tank is now weaker than it was last week. There's no two ways about it.

Edited February 22, 2017 by LittleWillie

[Mofuka 30]

 

 

So by this logic it would be better to do 1% more DPS but have a firing time of only 1 second. If more damage / second is ALWAYS better no matter what else, then the comment in pink is true,

 

But obviously the is not true, so your premise is wrong.

 

In the actual case before us, a 20% increase in DPS is more than offset by a 45% decrease in firing time. Overall the Isida has been weakened.

 

Then on top of that firing arc has been narrowed ... Isida has been weakened.

 

Then atop that, self-heal has been removed - Isida has been weakened.

 

There's just no two ways about it.

 

(PS: Do everyone a favor and look up the definition of "Literal". You are claiming 0 = 10. It does not. )

Your calculations are terribly wrong. I forgot the exact old stats, but if it was 500 dps and now is 700, that's 40% boost, not 20%.

 

And if they could make it doing 1400 dps for 2,5 seconds, I'd agree at the second. I wish there was such alteration.

 

 

 

Why not make Damage 504 and make healing 840 ? after all, Isida main role is healing, NOT killing.

 

why not make Damage 504 and healing 504 as well ? because the new Isida is way OP just like the old one.

 

Riddler_8 would you stop treying to get the old Isida back ? i'm so so sick of it. -_-

 

Dovloppers now should nerf the new Isida.

That's right, now when I'm playing with isida most of the time I'm killing, not healing. Team mates get mad, because I don't heal them enough, but I prefer to get quick easy kills, than heal, because of the high DPS. So if the devs wanted to make it mostly a healing machine, they messed it big time, because now it's more of a killing machine.

[Tomas_cz 63]

If you ran into an enemy with protection with old Isida, you would still die no matter how long your charge was, because the DPS was so low. Tanks are destroyed in seconds in this game. With the new Isida, you have shorter charge, but you would get in a lot more damage before you died because you deal damage faster. That is my whole point.

Ability to attack longer in one go definitely matters (positively). If a tank is needed to be killed with 5000 DP, this was achievable within 10 seconds and 1 full charge earlier (incluiding self-healing). Not every tank attacking you kills you within 10 seconds, even if they focus only on you - but with 15 seconds (available now before full recharge) it is different.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Bigx, I only see one solution to your problems. If you don't like enemies that use Shaft, don't play in large map. You mentionned Highways. This map is a nightmare if you hate Shaft.

 

Avoid playing in large maps.

 

Then you will tell map that there are also Shafts in Serpuhov or Rio. But the map is less wide open, there are plenty of places to hide from a Shaft.

I don't think OP's issue is finding cover. It's getting there after spawning.  On many maps (including Tribute & Rio) you can spawn in line-of-sight of a shaft. Only chance to get under cover is with a Hornet or Wasp - medium hulls don't have enough acceleration. And the transition time is often not long enough - see my note further up.

 

Only defense is to have a costly Protection Module. And with supplies enabled you are forced to slap on a DA ASAP or die.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Your calculations are terribly wrong. I forgot the exact old stats, but if it was 500 dps and now is 700, that's 40% boost, not 20%.

 

And if they could make it doing 1400 dps for 2,5 seconds, I'd agree at the second. I wish there was such alteration.

M3?

 

Was 544 for 9 seconds.

Now is 708 for 5 seconds.   So...

 

(708-544) / 544 = 30%.      9-5 leaves 4 second reduction.  4/9 = 44%.  So a 30% increase in dmg vs a 44% drop in energy pool.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

I have to apologize to the forum readers. I have been using the figure +20% to DPS when it is actually +30%. I must have typo'ed the calculator originally. Realized that after i posted my last mesage and hit the sack.

 

So the current Isida's 5 second ammo clip compares to 6.5 seconds of last's weeks Isida, not 6.0. The overall point remains valid both on papaer and in game-play. The added DPS does not make up for the even higher energy burn. ... the add otho that the other nerfs.