Luck, Drugs, & Skill

[ByeByeBye 1,747]

It seems to me that as I climb in rank, most of the game-play is based on luck...being at the right place at the right time.  

 

Equal-ish rank brackets are a given.  It is impossible to beat a hoard of drugging players 8 ranks above you...impossible.

 

Drugs are pretty much a given now too.  If you don't drug, you don't stand much of a chance.  It has made the game difficult to do much more than just punch the keypad....actual battling is almost secondary.  I just finished a DM (I really am beginning to hate DM)...I came in 1st and had the highest K/D, yeah, I used 3 rep kits.  The messed up part about this is I never was alive more than a couple of seconds...take that in....2 or 3 seconds!  How can you strategize in 2 or 3 seconds?  Tanki is Agar.io now that mass drugging is here.  I want to drive around, hide, attack, use the terrain, try new creative strategies, but Neo-Tanki only lets me press 3, 2, 1 with a 4 or 5 thrown in for spice.  

 

The battles are WAY TOO FULL all the time.  Previously you could join a match with a few players or find a match that was packed...there was CHOICE in the style you played.  Now it is just chock-a-block all the time in every match, in all modes.  It is fun to play in full matches, but NOT ALL THE TIME.  The full matches promote drugging.  The choke amount of drugs given as Mission Chain rewards promote drugging.  

 

Skill is now, pretty much at the bottom of the list for playing Tanki.  Being skilled with your equipment gives you a slight edge, but I don't think it is anywhere near as critical as drugging, brackets, or just dumb luck.  It certainly doesn't matter as much as it used to before the UBL and the Summer/Autumn big chain payouts. 

 

Now, luck seems to be playing a larger roll in how you fare in battle.  If you spawn close to a DA or DD box, you have a definite advantage since you can click its companion supply and have both DA and DD instantly...add a speed in a moment and you are a killing machine.  If you happen to be around a group of players you win, if they are a few nano-seconds away, you will probably lose as your supplies dissipate.  Luck has always played a roll in the game, but it now seems to be much more crutial as the mass drugging becomes the norm.

 

And please, everyone knows a player has the option of playing Pro-Battles...OK, sure, but we all (vast majority at least) do our daily missions and they must be played in Regular Battles.  I believe that playing habits from regular battles bleed over into ProBattles...the more we are acclimated to heavy drugging in regular battles the more drug use goes up in ProBattles.  

 

Tanki may sell more drug kits here and there but at the expense of quality game-play.  If the quality of game-play continues to spiral downward, this will impact the amount of active players even more than the exodus we have already seen.  At some point the few extra supply kits that are sold are over shadowed by the loss of players.  Volume is what is usually relied upon to generate income and Tanki keeps losing volume.  As the player base lessens, they must generate more income from fewer players.  This may have actually worked and may be working still...we have no way of knowing without seeing Tanki's accounting.  But I firmly believe that even if it is working now, it is a short sighted fix and will eventually implode leaving the game with a player base that is too small to be viable.  Tanki's current approach is a one way trip...there is no turning it around even if you try to grow the game organically.  New players will not be attracted to a flash game with a small player base regardless of advertising.

 

I digress, I am just sad that Tanki has been so compromised and has lost so much of what made it appealing originally.  I really believe that skill is what built Tanki.  Equipment acquisition was the cash engine that kept them afloat. The drug emphasis and the homogenization of the turrets and hulls has made luck a more important factor in game-play than skill.

 

Good Old Days:    Skill - Luck - Drugs

These Days:         Luck - Drugs - Skill

 

[Maf 32,307]

Good Old Days:    Skill - Luck - Drugs

You mean back when a single buyer with a ton of supplies single-handedly decided the outcome of a 10v10 game? Because that's how I remember it...

[REDOUANE78190 836]

You have descript @Claudiu perfectly :d

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

Drugs? Sure.

Skill? Sometimes.

Luck? Never.

[Desty 275]

You mean back when a single buyer with a ton of supplies single-handedly decided the outcome of a 10v10 game? Because that's how I remember it...

Don't forget Full M4 and no 50% protections.

 

Good times ...

Edited November 7, 2017 by Desty

[lukey0 27,543]

You mean back when a single buyer with a ton of supplies single-handedly decided the outcome of a 10v10 game? Because that's how I remember it...

Agreed. Full drugs, all the time and almost impossible to kill. 

[Crip 4,735]

There's no luck whatsoever in this game, unless you glitch onto someone during a gold.

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

A thoughtful post.  Nicely done.

 

There are some things I want to bring up, though.

 

Luck plays a factor in almost all games, in fact, such a large factor that it is almost invisible.  Here we are talking about algorithms that are outside your control.

Where is spawn is luck.  That affects who you kill, which affects their gameplay as well.    Or it affects what drugs you use, what people you spawn around, etc.

Whenever you are fighting somebody, how many hp they've already lost is luck.  You didn't do that to them.  And often "skilled" players are merely those who can target the low-hp prey.

When you shoot the flag-carrier and he loses just enough hp to die, that's luck. The damage of guns are mostly on a bell-curve, meaning you could have done less.

The nice thing about TO is that it is so repetitive it actually nullifies part of the luck aspect of the game.  When you are failing at something 20 out of 22 times that is not just bad luck.  And again, it is so embedded in a game that there's no use bashing TO over it.  

Take WoT, for example.  They've got a lot more room for "luck" because your shell's penetration is decided upon impact, which affects if you do damage or not.

 

The problem again with skill and drugs is that most people have around the same amount.  Consequently you don't see a large advantage offered to you by either.

Let me elaborate. Players like to brag about how much "skill" they have, based on the shots they can make, the players they can beat in a duel, etc.  In xp/bp certainly skill matters.  But in Battle-Button Legend battles you have to realize that most people are going to have the same skill level.  By "Skill" I mean the ability to use the tank tactically- peek-a-boo, make hard shots, rock your tank, use impact force, adjust aim under recoil, drive smoothly over complex terrain, etc.   

More often then not when you beat somebody it is not because of their lack of skill- it is because they weren't expecting you, or they were down on hp to begin with.

The difference in players is something called "strategy."  This is a sum of how you react to changing situations.  It is completely separate from your skill.    

Let me give you an example: If I am trying to take out a Shaft who is guarding one side of the map, I might try to get behind him a certain way.  Others might try to get behind him another way.  A third might not engage the shaft at all.  And a fourth might be so confident in his skills that he chooses to fight the Shaft head-on.

Now, these are not skills, these are choices- individualized for each players.  So if you include strategy under the "skill" umbrella, then it does matter.  Otherwise, not so much.

 

The same problem occurs with drugs.  Forget about "smart managing of cooldowns."  Most Legends picked that up somewhere along the way.  Everybody is drugging at around the same rate, so there is a very minimal advantage offered.  Is that a good thing?- in my opinion it is.   

Cooldowns merely serve to spice up the game- to make it so that you can have a DD on while someone else just dropped a mine, etc.  Definitely better than 4 years ago, for example.  But often the cooldown pattern and the patterns of others you encounter are influenced by blind luck- for example, how long it took them to get from their spawn to you, when the boxes were dropping along the way, etc.

 

Neat thing about Overdrives is that hopefully they'll provide both a tactical advantage and a power "break" to upset the order.  TO still has to address the battles-spiraling-towards-slaughters issue, though.

[Viking4s 10,791]

Luck plays a factor in almost all games, in fact, such a large factor that it is almost invisible.  Here we are talking about algorithms that are outside your control.

 Hear, hear.

[Kurt_KurtDGreat 2,259]

Pro battles are the way to go for me. Don't like wasting drugs, but seemingly I'm one of the very few.... If that wasn't the case there'd be a lot of pro battles with drugs disabled and in a variety of maps. But seems like the only ones there are that are THAT popular are XP/BP... ehhh :(

 

I never understood the reason, perhaps could it be people don't know about non-drug battles? I doubt it. Do they see the cost of pro pass too much? I doubt it, drugs cost way more and basically render your battle fund useless if you drug 24/7.

 

I've got a ton of drugs lying in my garage, 4K, 5k of each, with 2k or so repairs. I hate using them, not only cos I feel I'm wasting drugs just to play on an even level field, but because I hate drugging 24/7 to get an advantage over players... and feel guilty cos I'm trashing people just cos I know how to press 1, 2 and 3 all the time.

 

With all these drugs lying around, maybe I should use them. But hey, I really hate using them for no reason, and I find it hard to know what 'drugging moderately just to get an even playing field' means. I wish I could just forget about missions and thus non-pro battles, but I could easily gain 3k daily for an hours battle just by doing missions, when I can play in pro battles and waste a lot of time waiting for opponents..

 

Maybe this explains why I don't play tanki much recently and prefer staying with the community here on the forum :/

 

---

 

However, when all is said and done, I must admit the situation is wayyyyyy better now than it was before. The repair kit nerf was one of the best updates, before it was pretty much too annnoying to have enemies just repairing in front of you getting all their health back. Also, the fact their active time was reduced to 30 or so seconds made it better. I don't believe tanki will get rid of drugs, that's their main money making machine :p but they're needing them a bit, so the situation might get better. We'll see :)

[Tank_Bastion 57]

 

The same problem occurs with drugs.  Forget about "smart managing of cooldowns."  Most Legends picked that up somewhere along the way.  Everybody is drugging at around the same rate, so there is a very minimal advantage offered.  Is that a good thing?- in my opinion it is.   

You remind me of this:

 

So why don't just take away all the guns from people so that a good guy without guns can stop a bad guy without guns?

 

Similarly, some players argue that drugs is fair and they don't feel bad of using it as they believe it is part of the game and everyone is using it in higher rank. The problem is, it creates huge amount of frustration among players, in fact, I believe the majority of players hopes drugs never exist in this game.

 

Also, what's the point of playing a shooting game when the main winning factor is not based on your skills or your equipment set up, but the number of consumable items you have? 

 

I have to say it is really hilarious and ironic when Tanki include the so call "E Sport" and clan battles on vlog, which the main reason of a team wins is not related to its strategy or skills, but base on how good you press the number keys. Allow me to say that, there is never ever any game company or teams dare to call themselves a "E Sport" team when they actually win by spamming consumable items. Please kindly tell me if anyone find such team.

 

 

For me, the fairest match I have ever experienced is at the first few level of this game, as no one is using drugs. This is the saddest thing of a game, as this game is using outdated technology (which is fine) while the devs, with whatever reason, just refused to remove mechanism that the majority of players keep complaining since the launch of this game. 

 

So what happening is no new players willing to join as the graphics is actually really crappy according to today's standard. At the same time, old players keep leaving as they have tired to complaine the hilarious drugs system, which they have done so for half a decade.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Tank_Bastion

[Kurt_KurtDGreat 2,259]

Don't bring esports into this. Esports in Tanki seems to be getting a lot better here atleast in the EN forum. Yes, there are hard format tournaments were drugs are enabled, but they still follow a strict set of equipment limitations and tactics. Most of the tournaments and esports battles in fact have drugs and MUs disabled.

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

 

 

 

You remind me of this:

 

So why don't just take away all the guns from people so that a good guy without guns can stop a bad guy with guns?

 

I would take this out of it.  I can't understand you as the image will not load on my computer.  Your case is fine without memes.

[Tank_Bastion 57]

Don't bring esports into this. Esports in Tanki seems to be getting a lot better here atleast in the EN forum. Yes, there are hard format tournaments were drugs are enabled, but they still follow a strict set of equipment limitations and tactics. Most of the tournaments and esports battles in fact have drugs and MUs disabled.

Although you said not to talk about e sport, there is something that I really want to talk about. Traditionally, esport supposes to have the highest skill level in the entire game. As only very limited, pro players able to join it. While allow me to say that, it is not the case of this game. What I saw is in almost every single "esport" match that shown to public, every single players have the 3 drug icons appear above them. As many youtube videos just make fun of some players which they have very low level equipment but keep spamming drugs. The reason of that is very simple, if you are able to spam drugs, you have already win the game. I don't agree what tanki tried to package those matches as pros matches, this is not what esport really looks like.

 

Yes, this is not my game and Tanki have the right to decide what they want to do to this game. But have they ever asked themselves "may be allowing players to spam supplies and cause quite among of frustration is not a good idea"?

 

You mean back when a single buyer with a ton of supplies single-handedly decided the outcome of a 10v10 game? Because that's how I remember it...

Actually I might prefer this more than the current Tanki. The reason is, even the big buyer is dominating the match, there are just a few of them in the entire player pool, may be 1 or 2 per 100 matchs. So for me, it is just my unlucky moment. However, I almost meet at least one drugger in every single match. This is not Tanki Online, this is Number Key Online or Drug Online. May be I'm in the wrong game?

 

There's no luck whatsoever in this game, unless you glitch onto someone during a gold.

I personally don't see a problem of luck as well, unless you are counting some lucky shots (yeah those which you never expect to hit). Yet, the drug problem is true, and have been complained since the launch of this game Edited November 7, 2017 by Kurt_KurtDGreat
3 posts merged. Please refrain from multi posting.

[Guest TSY_the_crazy]

There's no luck whatsoever in this game, unless you glitch onto someone during a gold.

Or under :ph34r:

You have descript @Claudiu perfectly :d

@Oufa more likely :p

 

---

PRO pass exists for people who don't drug okei

[Tank_Bastion 57]

PRO pass exists for people who don't drug okei

However, you can't do daily missions in a drug free match, it is just impossible.

 

Actually, why do we need drugs in the first place. For me, it is superfluous and causing frustrations, which I hope it never exist.

[Guest TSY_the_crazy]

However, you can't do daily missions in a drug free match, it is just impossible.

 

Actually, why do we need drugs in the first place. For me, it is superfluous and causing frustrations, which I hope it never exist.

Don't do missions. Waste of time. Yes, cocaine causes fustraitions :(

[Kurt_KurtDGreat 2,259]

However, you can't do daily missions in a drug free match, it is just impossible.

 

Actually, why do we need drugs in the first place. For me, it is superfluous and causing frustrations, which I hope it never exist.

Yep, and that is why many people don't do missions anymore.

 

Regarding what you said above regarding esports, I think you have it wrong.

 

"almost every single "esport" match that shown to public, every single players have the 3 drug icons appear above them. "

 

- Are you talking about official tanki esports in tournaments etccc.. or just random battles at the highest ranks? In official tanki esports, like 75% of the tournaments are all excluding drugs, and 25% are hard format, meaning they have drugs and MUs enabled, it's a drug fest basically. In hard format, the people that join have thousands of drugs and if it is a tournament, they will make sure they have the 3 drugs on them all the time. What's the point entering a tournament and not be competitive..?

 

Feel free to take a look at the esports section in our forum (http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showforum=126) and take a look at the current series of tournaments called 'Ranking Cups' :) they include 7 different formats, and only 1 of these are drugs (drugs, as in supplies. Not drops) enabled ;) (http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showforum=126)

 

Also, it's quite open to everyone. This clan managed to reach the second league. ( http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showtopic=314300 ) Look at their ranks ^_^

[T-34-3m 360]

So drug. Quit being a baby and use the supplies you have.

[CooperO 7,956]

Although you said not to talk about e sport, there is something that I really want to talk about. Traditionally, esport supposes to have the highest skill level in the entire game. As only very limited, pro players able to join it. While allow me to say that, it is not the case of this game. What I saw is in almost every single "esport" match that shown to public, every single players have the 3 drug icons appear above them. 

Actually, hard format in eSports is, as the name implies, one of the harder formats. It is extremely fast paced, you have to be able to blindly find all the right keys on your keyboard and you have to be able to multi-task. Since both teams are using supplies, it becomes a game of skill, not a game of 'who has the best equipment, most supplies and most mults'. This is entirely different from public games where anyone can play and many don't want to or can't use supplies and/or have weak equipment. In these cases using supplies just makes it easier to win.

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

I have to say it is really hilarious and ironic when Tanki include the so call "E Sport" and clan battles on vlog, which the main reason of a team wins is not related to its strategy or skills, but base on how good you press the number keys. Allow me to say that, there is never ever any game company or teams dare to call themselves a "E Sport" team when they actually win by spamming consumable items. Please kindly tell me if anyone find such team.

Lol why is this a problem if both teams are drugging? It takes skill for druggers to kill other druggers.

[Maf 32,307]

Actually I might prefer this more than the current Tanki. The reason is, even the big buyer is dominating the match, there are just a few of them in the entire player pool, may be 1 or 2 per 100 matchs. So for me, it is just my unlucky moment. However, I almost meet at least one drugger in every single match. This is not Tanki Online, this is Number Key Online or Drug Online. May be I'm in the wrong game?

Nah, there was usually at least 1 or 2 per game, especially on higher ranks. Free players only got a miserable 60 supplies per day (total, not 60 of each), so they either had to save up on multiple account for a month and then play one short battle per week with full supplies, or play normally, rarely using supplies, which put them at the complete mercy of the "druggers" in that game.

 

And then there was the takeover groups, which would create 999-flag 24-hour battles, wait for normal players to build up a high fund, then join the losing team and steamroll the winners in 30 minutes, crushing their dreams and expectations.

[Blackdrakon30 2,943]

I don't care  much for nostalgia, but there's definitely problems corresponding to Tanki's current state.

 

The main ones, in my eyes, are (1) Drugging and (2) Magnum. Magnum just has absurd impact and completely invalidates some maps like Noise. Drugging has 100% become the name of the game and is essentially the main reason I rarely play anymore. It's just.... ugh. So cringy having it just be a battle of who has more supplies that they can shell out.

 

The only way I think this can be fixed at this point is by changing the settings of many of the auto-generated battles. If half the auto-generated battles had Magnum disabled, and only Repair kit drops (no other drops or supplies), the game would become much more skill based. Sure there's still MUs, but there's not much you can do about that.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Blackdrakon30

[Rooky 414]

Don't forget Full M4 and no 50% protections.

 

Good times ...

lol, yeah i agree. But the recent update of repair kit balanced a lot of things. 

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

I don't care  much for nostalgia, but there's definitely problems corresponding to Tanki's current state.

 

The main ones, in my eyes, are (1) Drugging and (2) Magnum. Magnum just has absurd impact and completely invalidates some maps like Noise. Drugging has 100% become the name of the game and is essentially the main reason I rarely play anymore. It's just.... ugh. So cringy having it just be a battle of who has more supplies that they can shell out.

 

The only way I think this can be fixed at this point is by changing the settings of many of the auto-generated battles. If half the auto-generated battles had Magnum disabled, and only Repair kit drops (no other drops or supplies), the game would become much more skill based. Sure there's still MUs, but there's not much you can do about that.

100% agree.

 

Drugs are meant to give an advantage.  They become entirely useless when everyone is using them.  The whole thing just cancels itself out. Everyone is dumping a large proportion into their income only to keep up with a vague construct that doesn't actually exist!  If everyone in a battle agreed to not drug, it really comes out to the same thing, without loss of supplies.  I've actually managed to convince small battles to play this way.

 

This is how a conversation went between an observing friend and I (on my supplies account):

 

"Why do you keep turning on your supplies?"

"To keep up with the competition. They're using supplies."

"But why do they use the supplies?"

"To keep up with the competition."

"Where is the competition?"

"Exactly."

 

Now the Overdrives should add a strategic element and help one punch through the defense.

 

Tanki should go one of two ways with supplies:

 

Method 1: Make supplies a buyer-only feature.  Nerf them drastically. Disadvantage: makes it physically impossible for non-buyers ever to achieve full equality with buyers. I'm fine with that.

 

Method 2: Allow everyone a "supplies quota" per minute that doesn't take from their supplies stockpile.  If they want to drug faster, they'll have to start taking out of their own stockpile.  Change missions to make supplies harder to get.     Disadvantages: No more than current model.

 

The issue with the system right now is it actively encourages smart and calculating players to play less on their main accounts/split their time between multiple accounts, or simply leave to do something else.

 

P.S.  What is wrong with simply nerfing Magnum rather than restricting it to certain battles?

Edited November 7, 2017 by r_I_already_won0