Declined Toggling xp

[mr.bryant 36]

I recently posted a discussion topic on this, the GM's made a pretty good argument of why it couldn't be used, but I'm now modifying my idea so it could work.

 

The reason for this idea is because, for non-buyers, it is extremely hard to get enough crystals to upgrade turrets even when you have the correct rank. The problem that this solves is the same problem the guy who said we should enable buying with xp is trying to solve. The reality is, if you just play the game without thinking about this problem, you'll end up becoming like WO5 with only all M0's, going against m1/m2 people. Or you could be a second lieutenant with only m1's and you'll be going against m2/m3 people. This is a huge problem and I believe I have a solution that would both, satisfy all players in tanki (buyer or not), and be unexploitable so it would satisfy the GM's too.

 

Now for the solution, I suggest that we give players the opportunity to toggle off and on, the earning of xp, so that they could earn crystals enough to level their gear, and then go up when they're ready.

 

Now I know what you're all thinking, "Players could camp at recruit and just kill newbies like crazy" This was a common argument that people used. But it flawed, Because in order to actually upgrade your tank, you need to be a much higher rank, I think m1's start at master sergeant. So those people who would want to exploit it wouldn't be able to because they'd be going against other Master sergeants and WO's that have also gotten their upgrades in time. Believe me, I've thought through this, tanki is fully able to make this change without adding any other updates. Doing this would solve a lot of problems and allow non-buyer players to upgrade their turrets much easier.

 

The way this satisfy's buyers is because they don't have to do the huge grind that the regular players do. If anyone has a way this could be exploited, please tell me in detail because I don't think there's a flaw in this idea.

[Hate 5,582]

Under review

 

Hmm..., I like the idea itself and you seem to have thought about it well. Locking the equipment upgrades in order to prevent gaining crystals only and killing low rankers is a good point indeed so this way, the players have 2 options. Either keep on gaining crystals and playing with those M0s, same as you or if you get tired of seeing M0s for example, simply rank up and play against M1 or even M2, the choice is yours.  

[mr.bryant 36]

 Exactly

[u812ic 1,629]

I've run into the same problem with my highest account, which I have kinda abandoned (but not completely) because my garage is M1s and M2s up against fully MUed M2s and M3s. I became cannon fodder and was usually down at the bottom of the list. On the winning team I wouldn't get very much more crystals as I would on the losing team. 

 

Tanki states that this is a free to play game, which is true....to an extent. No one pays to play the game, which makes it free to play. But in order to compete, you almost have to become a buyer. I created another account and did what other players suggested:

 

1...Don't MU an M0.

2...Stay out of the garage until you are ready to buy an M1 with the crystals you have earned.

3...Some even said not to MU an M1. 

 

I didn't MU my M0 and found myself trying to compete with a recruit's weapon against M1s. The enemy soon had me pegged and I felt I was the most important member on my team because I was an easy kill and they would receive very little damage.

 

It would be nice if the Dev's could not only have this game as F2P, but also F2 compete or at least give the non-buyers a fighting chance. I know, there are players who claim they have never put any money into this game and became Legend in 3 to 4 years with an all M2, M3 garage. with a few MUed M3s maxed out. I wonder how long these Legends fought with a recruit's turret and hull against buyers with MUed M1 and a seemingly endless supply of supplies. With the above mentioned account, I seldom got as much as 100 crystals. By the time I earned enough crystals to buy an M1, I was already locked out and have to buy an M2. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that account. 

 

Sorry for the wall of text. I had to vent a little. Hope you don't mind. 

[mr.bryant 36]

I've run into the same problem with my highest account, which I have kinda abandoned (but not completely) because my garage is M1s and M2s up against fully MUed M2s and M3s. I became cannon fodder and was usually down at the bottom of the list. On the winning team I wouldn't get very much more crystals as I would on the losing team. 

 

Tanki states that this is a free to play game, which is true....to an extent. No one pays to play the game, which makes it free to play. But in order to compete, you almost have to become a buyer. I created another account and did what other players suggested:

 

1...Don't MU an M0.

2...Stay out of the garage until you are ready to buy an M1 with the crystals you have earned.

3...Some even said not to MU an M1. 

 

I didn't MU my M0 and found myself trying to compete with a recruit's weapon against M1s. The enemy soon had me pegged and I felt I was the most important member on my team because I was an easy kill and they would receive very little damage.

 

It would be nice if the Dev's could not only have this game as F2P, but also F2 compete or at least give the non-buyers a fighting chance. I know, there are players who claim they have never put any money into this game and became Legend in 3 to 4 years with an all M2, M3 garage. with a few MUed M3s maxed out. I wonder how long these Legends fought with a recruit's turret and hull against buyers with MUed M1 and a seemingly endless supply of supplies. With the above mentioned account, I seldom got as much as 100 crystals. By the time I earned enough crystals to buy an M1, I was already locked out and have to buy an M2. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that account. 

 

Sorry for the wall of text. I had to vent a little. Hope you don't mind. 

Again, I totally agree with you, the main reason I did this post is because I know a lot of people in this situation(me included) and I'm sure this is the only solution, other than buying.

[Maf 32,328]

Declined

 

Not going to happen for the exact reason @Hate stated. Stopping EXP gain allows players to stay competitive at their rank and upgrade their equipment without having to worry about not having enough for newly unlocked items. And this would have a terrible effect on the game's economy.

 

The crystals/EXP gain ratio is a very sensitive aspect of the game and needs to be carefully balanced to allow the game to survive while at the same time giving players enough earnings in order to be able to play without having to buy (or buying in order to make their progress more convenient).

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

It will never happen, because it will completely mess up game progression. And the argument that low rankers will have a hard time still holds.

 

The problem is that there will be a horrible discrepancy between equipment levels. Suppose you are a buyer. You turn EXP gain off, buy yourself Striker kit at Staff Sergeant, an M0 rank, and micro-upgrade it so you have M2 Smoky and M2 Viking. So now you are just mopping the floor with low rankers who have just started the game. You might argue that beginners can also freeze their EXP and grind their way to M2s, but have fun earning 200k crystals at low ranks while there are buyers who have also frozen their EXP destroying you. Newcomers would simply quit the game and never look back.

 

Now you argue that "So those people who would want to exploit it wouldn't be able to because they'd be going against other Master sergeants and WO's that have also gotten their upgrades in time." First of all, I can't tell exactly what you are getting at. I assume you mean that you can't stay at low ranks because you will die to Warrant Officers with M1s. This makes no sense. As I mentioned previously, you can get M2s as early as Staff Sergeant if you are a buyer, so those M1s are not going to be a threat to you at all. If those Warrant Officers toggle EXP off and micro-upgrade their M1s as well, great, the playing field is even if you are uptiered. But you're a Staff Sergeant. You will still be facing M0s. So you have either an advantage or an equal playing field when uptiered, or a total puppy-kicking stompfest if downtiered.

 

Your idea does not help free to play players. Instead it gives a huge advantage to buyers. I think you make some erroneous assumptions about equipment distribution in this game: Recruit to Master Sergeant is M0s, Master Sergeant to WO5 is M1s, WO5 to Colonel is M2, then the endgame. You seem to forget about kits and micro-upgrades. In reality, for a buyer, M1 is Recruit to Staff Sergeant, M2 is Staff Sergeant to WO4, and M3 stars at WO4. F2P players cannot get equipment at such ranks, but buyers can, and the ability to freeze EXP gain would allow them to have a permanent advantage. In the current meta, even though buyers can get OP equipment early on, they are forced to rank up and their time dominating low rankers is limited. In your idea, they can do so forever.

[mhh.2000 888]

originally my idea

here

[mr.bryant 36]

It will never happen, because it will completely mess up game progression. And the argument that low rankers will have a hard time still holds.

 

The problem is that there will be a horrible discrepancy between equipment levels. Suppose you are a buyer. You turn EXP gain off, buy yourself Striker kit at Staff Sergeant, an M0 rank, and micro-upgrade it so you have M2 Smoky and M2 Viking. So now you are just mopping the floor with low rankers who have just started the game. You might argue that beginners can also freeze their EXP and grind their way to M2s, but have fun earning 200k crystals at low ranks while there are buyers who have also frozen their EXP destroying you. Newcomers would simply quit the game and never look back.

 

Now you argue that "So those people who would want to exploit it wouldn't be able to because they'd be going against other Master sergeants and WO's that have also gotten their upgrades in time." First of all, I can't tell exactly what you are getting at. I assume you mean that you can't stay at low ranks because you will die to Warrant Officers with M1s. This makes no sense. As I mentioned previously, you can get M2s as early as Staff Sergeant if you are a buyer, so those M1s are not going to be a threat to you at all. If those Warrant Officers toggle EXP off and micro-upgrade their M1s as well, great, the playing field is even if you are uptiered. But you're a Staff Sergeant. You will still be facing M0s. So you have either an advantage or an equal playing field when uptiered, or a total puppy-kicking stompfest if downtiered.

 

Your idea does not help free to play players. Instead it gives a huge advantage to buyers. I think you make some erroneous assumptions about equipment distribution in this game: Recruit to Master Sergeant is M0s, Master Sergeant to WO5 is M1s, WO5 to Colonel is M2, then the endgame. You seem to forget about kits and micro-upgrades. In reality, for a buyer, M1 is Recruit to Staff Sergeant, M2 is Staff Sergeant to WO4, and M3 stars at WO4. F2P players cannot get equipment at such ranks, but buyers can, and the ability to freeze EXP gain would allow them to have a permanent advantage. In the current meta, even though buyers can get OP equipment early on, they are forced to rank up and their time dominating low rankers is limited. In your idea, they can do so forever.

So technically, you're saying that the problem in this all revolves around the micro upgrades. Also, what maf said about the cry/xp ratio could hurt the game. The whole reason that this solution is needed is because that ratio is so messed up, the whole reason for this is the economy update that tanki did a few years ago. Sure, they multiplied your crystals by 10, but gaining them after that became super hard and imbalance because the prices in the garage and the battle funds were not scaled correctly. In tanki, there used to be a time where the rank was the only thing stopping you for an upgrade, now it's crystals. And if you go into a battle and just play without thinking how much the battle fund will be, then you will earn too much xp. So then now, it's more valuable to NOT have xp then it is to have it for the people in this situation like me and u8. Also, when you said "This makes no sense. As I mentioned previously, you can get M2s as early as Staff Sergeant if you are a buyer, so those M1s are not going to be a threat to you at all." You've just pointed out the most obvious problem with current tanki, the m1's wont be a threat to you(yes they will), but the m2's will make you suck even more. At first I thought right now it's just m0's against m1's but when you said the micro upgrade thing you made me realize that it's actually m0's against M1's.

 

Something that I wish people would understand, is that buyers are exploiting tanki without the xo toggle. As we speak, there are many who have M0 going against m2's are getting wrecked and they either quit the game or do another account. The community needs to recognize the problem tanki has created and finally fix it. I also think that this is the reason many people are quitting the game, also because there is a need for map updates.

So technically, you're saying that the problem in this all revolves around the micro upgrades. Also, what maf said about the cry/xp ratio could hurt the game. The whole reason that this solution is needed is because that ratio is so messed up, the whole reason for this is the economy update that tanki did a few years ago. Sure, they multiplied your crystals by 10, but gaining them after that became super hard and imbalance because the prices in the garage and the battle funds were not scaled correctly. In tanki, there used to be a time where the rank was the only thing stopping you for an upgrade, now it's crystals. And if you go into a battle and just play without thinking how much the battle fund will be, then you will earn too much xp. So then now, it's more valuable to NOT have xp then it is to have it for the people in this situation like me and u8. Also, when you said "This makes no sense. As I mentioned previously, you can get M2s as early as Staff Sergeant if you are a buyer, so those M1s are not going to be a threat to you at all." You've just pointed out the most obvious problem with current tanki, the m1's wont be a threat to you(yes they will), but the m2's will make you suck even more. At first I thought right now it's just m0's against m1's but when you said the micro upgrade thing you made me realize that it's actually m0's against M1's.

 

Something that I wish people would understand, is that buyers are exploiting tanki without the xo toggle. As we speak, there are many who have M0 going against m2's are getting wrecked and they either quit the game or do another account. The community needs to recognize the problem tanki has created and finally fix it. I also think that this is the reason many people are quitting the game, also because there is a need for map updates.

shoot I meant to say M0's vs M2's there

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

 

You forget about missions. It is now far easier to earn crystals, because missions gain you far more than any battle fund will, at least for standard non-PRO battles.

 

Something that I wish people would understand, is that buyers are exploiting tanki without the xo toggle. As we speak, there are many who have M0 going against m2's are getting wrecked and they either quit the game or do another account. The community needs to recognize the problem tanki has created and finally fix it. I also think that this is the reason many people are quitting the game, also because there is a need for map updates.

So your solution is to introduce an EXP toggle that lets buyers "exploit" the game forever? Great idea.

 

The solution is not an EXP toggle. The solution is to simply make equipment unlocks depend more heavily on ranks again. This means increasing the rank at which kits unlock, making low-tier MUs less profitable, and educating low rankers on how the game works. Low rankers suffer because they do not know how to save. As a result, they get stuck in high ranks with poor equipment. While the progression system in Tanki leaves much to be desired, this is ultimately their own fault.

[mr.bryant 36]

You forget about missions. It is now far easier to earn crystals, because missions gain you far more than any battle fund will, at least for standard non-PRO battles.

 

So your solution is to introduce an EXP toggle that lets buyers "exploit" the game forever? Great idea.

 

The solution is not an EXP toggle. The solution is to simply make equipment unlocks depend more heavily on ranks again. This means increasing the rank at which kits unlock, making low-tier MUs less profitable, and educating low rankers on how the game works. Low rankers suffer because they do not know how to save. As a result, they get stuck in high ranks with poor equipment. While the progression system in Tanki leaves much to be desired, this is ultimately their own fault.

Now, I agree with you on a lot of things here, especially the part where you said that the upgrades need to be unlocked at higher ranks as well as well as kits. Now the whole mission Idea is controversial, believe me, I've tried just doing my missions every day and then playing a bunch of battles that day with no missions. Then I realized that I was still earning too much XP on those battles I played after completing the missions, so then I found a solution. The solution was to only do my missions and then immediately get off and not play for the day, the problem was, that tanki wasn't fun anymore by just playing a little bit a day. Now, while the missions update helped a super super huge amount, it is still inadequate to support the needs of most non-buyers, besides doing the thing I just mentioned.

 

Also Onion, I do admit that my solution was flawed, but you need to recognize that many of your arguments are flawed too. Are you coming from personal experience with them, are you a buyer, or are you just trying to think up the logic in your head? Because I know that many people on this forum come from personal experience when they are trying to throw away an idea. But are you???????

 

Also, if you don't believe that the xp to crystals ratio is a problem, then just start up a discussion on the forums and see what people say.

 

Lastly, I actually agree with your solution, you should post a suggestion and see if it gets implemented.

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

Also Onion, I do admit that my solution was flawed, but you need to recognize that many of your arguments are flawed too.

Please explain.

 

Are you coming from personal experience with them, are you a buyer, or are you just trying to think up the logic in your head? Because I know that many people on this forum come from personal experience when they are trying to throw away an idea. But are you???????

I am not a buyer. I base my opinion primarily on personal experience and some logic (what else am I supposed to base it on?). I have made several alts during my time playing Tanki and I have never had problems with crystals. More on this later.

 

Also, if you don't believe that the xp to crystals ratio is a problem, then just start up a discussion on the forums and see what people say.

I did not say that the EXP / crystal earnings ratio is not a problem. I do think that it is one, however, freezing EXP will simply not work. Freezing EXP is great if you are the only person who can toggle it. Give that ability to other people and soon you see that whatever good you got out of it as a F2P gets completely abused by buyers.

 

Now, I believe you can be financially successful with relative ease. However, the system is very unforgiving for new players who don't know how the economy works. Besides the whole new player factor, the game is somewhat biased against the low ranks by design. Here is why:

 

It is a well known fact in Tanki that spreading yourself too thin, that is, buying too much equipment of the same modification will cause you problems down the road. The very first account I made had a bunch of M1s by Captain, but needless to say they were worthless at M2 ranks. New players don't know this and run into issues. Furthermore, in the low ranks, you rank up the fastest, and this has certain implications.

 

The M1 ranks, from First Sergeant to Warrant Officer 4, comprise a total of 96k EXP. The M2 ranks on the other hand, from WO4 to Colonel, comprise a total of 402k EXP. If you want to be caught up with equipment, I would expect that you have a decent M1 garage by WO4 and a decent M2 garage by Colonel. Undoubtedly you will get equipment before you get to those ranks, but the point is that you have much more time to expand your M2 garage then expand your M1 garage. As a Warrant Officer / Sergeant you do not have the luxury of exploring new combos like you do as a Lieutenant / Colonel, which is obviously not the best game design, but it is what it is.

 

Thus, in order to keep up you have to limit yourself to 1-2 M1 combos. Here is where new players run into trouble: they do not know exactly what they want to play (and who can blame them, they've just started the game), and they aren't exactly good at saving up and will buy the first M1s that become available. This is why you see a lot of inexperienced players with Firebird / Smoky / Mammoth M1. When I make alts I have a clear idea of what combo I'm going to use and how I'm going to obtain those items: either simply buying them, getting them through kits, or through micro-upgrades. Consequentially besides my first account I have never had problems with crystals in the M1 ranks.

 

So, what is the conclusion? The EXP / crystals earning problem is most acute in the low ranks, where you burn through EXP quickly. Yet towards the endgame the situation gets better. Again, this is not good game design. However, you can still be successful in game if you have clear goals equipment-wise and you are good at saving. Since the current system is very unlikely to undergo any major reworks any time soon, I suggest educating low rank players, whether this be more in-game tips, up-to-date and accessible guides, maybe even reshuffling of unlock ranks. This is my reasoning, and I hope it makes sense. Raising of kit unlock ranks is mainly just to combat P2W since buyers are the only people than buy those kits when they unlock.

[Re-old-railgun 81]

i think if rail gets a buff xp will be millions of times better .

[mr.bryant 36]

Please explain.

 

I am not a buyer. I base my opinion primarily on personal experience and some logic (what else am I supposed to base it on?). I have made several alts during my time playing Tanki and I have never had problems with crystals. More on this later.

 

I did not say that the EXP / crystal earnings ratio is not a problem. I do think that it is one, however, freezing EXP will simply not work. Freezing EXP is great if you are the only person who can toggle it. Give that ability to other people and soon you see that whatever good you got out of it as a F2P gets completely abused by buyers.

 

Now, I believe you can be financially successful with relative ease. However, the system is very unforgiving for new players who don't know how the economy works. Besides the whole new player factor, the game is somewhat biased against the low ranks by design. Here is why:

 

It is a well known fact in Tanki that spreading yourself too thin, that is, buying too much equipment of the same modification will cause you problems down the road. The very first account I made had a bunch of M1s by Captain, but needless to say they were worthless at M2 ranks. New players don't know this and run into issues. Furthermore, in the low ranks, you rank up the fastest, and this has certain implications.

 

The M1 ranks, from First Sergeant to Warrant Officer 4, comprise a total of 96k EXP. The M2 ranks on the other hand, from WO4 to Colonel, comprise a total of 402k EXP. If you want to be caught up with equipment, I would expect that you have a decent M1 garage by WO4 and a decent M2 garage by Colonel. Undoubtedly you will get equipment before you get to those ranks, but the point is that you have much more time to expand your M2 garage then expand your M1 garage. As a Warrant Officer / Sergeant you do not have the luxury of exploring new combos like you do as a Lieutenant / Colonel, which is obviously not the best game design, but it is what it is.

 

Thus, in order to keep up you have to limit yourself to 1-2 M1 combos. Here is where new players run into trouble: they do not know exactly what they want to play (and who can blame them, they've just started the game), and they aren't exactly good at saving up and will buy the first M1s that become available. This is why you see a lot of inexperienced players with Firebird / Smoky / Mammoth M1. When I make alts I have a clear idea of what combo I'm going to use and how I'm going to obtain those items: either simply buying them, getting them through kits, or through micro-upgrades. Consequentially besides my first account I have never had problems with crystals in the M1 ranks.

 

So, what is the conclusion? The EXP / crystals earning problem is most acute in the low ranks, where you burn through EXP quickly. Yet towards the endgame the situation gets better. Again, this is not good game design. However, you can still be successful in game if you have clear goals equipment-wise and you are good at saving. Since the current system is very unlikely to undergo any major reworks any time soon, I suggest educating low rank players, whether this be more in-game tips, up-to-date and accessible guides, maybe even reshuffling of unlock ranks. This is my reasoning, and I hope it makes sense. Raising of kit unlock ranks is mainly just to combat P2W since buyers are the only people than buy those kits when they unlock.

Also, remember I said that I do admit that my argument was flawed due to the use of micro upgrades. And also where you said I needed to admit where your argument was flawed, it when you said, this would make M0's be going against M2's which is already happening as we speak, so this wouldn't change that it would just let them grind up to M2/M1.

 

But yea, I totally agree with you, and it'd probably also be nicer to have some of the lower ranks cost more xp, or maybe(as you suggested) make the ranks and kits require a higher rank before buying. But the bottom line is, we need a solution(other than educating) that makes it so young players don't have to all go and make alts after they reach WO4 or so.

 

Also, I'm just confused at another argument(not yours), it said that freezing the xp would let people grind up MU's 10/10 and then dominate newbies. But the thing is, that this was already possible because buyers could immediately MU their stuff at recruit, I'm just confused how that argument makes sense.

 

Anyways, you should also post your solution about the making upgrades cost higher ranks thing. Also, how do you quote on a specific part of someone's post? I only know how to quote the whole thing.

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

And also where you said I needed to admit where your argument was flawed, it when you said, this would make M0's be going against M2's which is already happening as we speak, so this wouldn't change that it would just let them grind up to M2/M1.

It is already happening as we speak, but because of the current system these buyers rank up quickly and can face low ranks for only a short time. Freezing EXP would allow them to do so indefinitely.

 

Also, I'm just confused at another argument(not yours), it said that freezing the xp would let people grind up MU's 10/10 and then dominate newbies. But the thing is, that this was already possible because buyers could immediately MU their stuff at recruit, I'm just confused how that argument makes sense.

Basically same as above. 

[mr.bryant 36]

Ok sounds good, now do your suggestion please, it's a good idea

[Re-old-railgun 81]

Tanki is dead .