invalid Lock M0s based on rank

[Tani_S 736]

 

I provided a link to a profile with the last post. You might want to check out this profile (he has a Legend rank): https://ratings.tankionline.com/de/user/dornemarginit

 

I also know more profiles with Legend that only got M1 or M0. They are rather rare, but they do exist.

And I don't think that the paragraph about intentional selection of weak equipment is applied on cases, where the tankers has no guns of a better modification, despite that it is M0 or M1, thus making it not fitting to the respective rank he is in.

[wolverine848 13,097]

I know, but what if those guys don't know how not to be a saboteur and never learned it, maybe because their chat is off?

 

I still see a problem with this suggestion: What do you do with people that are high ranks and the only guns they have, are M0? Yes, they do play with this  -_-

Those players are useless to teams.  I find it hard to believe they are not doing it as a joke.

 

They should be playing only DM battles, or start a new account.

 

I certainly would not want them on my team.  it's worse than being one short - since - there's a possibility MM puts a real player in that spot eventually.

 

I know they do. Read this:

 

 

2.1.5. Sabotage — Any acts or omissions aimed at creating obstructions for the team where the User is a member, including in CTF, TDM and CP modes, fighting against the team of which you are a member (intentional selection of weak equipment, frequent pauses, inactivity or intentional failure to comply with map’s or game mode’s requirements, imitation of issues with internet connection), damaging/destroying an ally’s tank, fighting in the interest of the opponent’s team (conspiracy);

 

 

Are you trying to tell me that a higher ranked player has nothing more in his/her garage than an M0? What rank are you calling "higher rank"? I'd say, in this case, 1st Lieutenant and above, though some would disagree. I would hope by the time a player reaches Brigadier, they would have more than a garage full of M0s. If a "higher rank" has an M0 garage, what do you suppose they spent their crystals on? 

 

EDIT: Since you're so sure that some "higher ranks" have a M0 garage, please let me know who they are. I want to see their profile. If there is even one M1 in that garage, then it's not a M0 garage. 

[u812ic 1,629]

I provided a link to a profile with the last post. You might want to check out this profile (he has a Legend rank): https://ratings.tankionline.com/de/user/dornemarginit

 

I also know more profiles with Legend that only got M1 or M0. They are rather rare, but they do exist.

And I don't think that the paragraph about intentional selection of weak equipment is applied on cases, where the tankers has no guns of a better modification, despite that it is M0 or M1, thus making it not fitting to the respective rank he is in.

My suggestion still stands. This player has 1,172,338 crystals. No reason why he/she can't buy an M3 of any turret or certainly an M2. There is an M1 Titan and M1 Mammoth, plus M1 Badger. I would certainly call this player a professional saboteur. 

[Tani_S 736]

My suggestion still stands. This player has 1,172,338 crystals. No reason why he/she can't buy an M3 of any turret or certainly an M2. There is an M1 Titan and M1 Mammoth, plus M1 Badger. I would certainly call this player a professional saboteur. 

That might be true. But this is a sabotage, which is not illegal from the perspective of the rules. And even if he made mistakes in the past i.e. by drowning all crystals into paints, gifts or drugs and not using it for higher equipment modifications and he wants to play normal again (in case he got a eureka moment), should he be blocked out so that he can't earn crystals anymore?

[wolverine848 13,097]

That might be true. But this is a sabotage, which is not illegal from the perspective of the rules. And even if he made mistakes in the past i.e. by drowning all crystals into paints, gifts or drugs and not using it for higher equipment modifications and he wants to play normal again (in case he got a eureka moment), should he be blocked out so that he can't earn crystals anymore?

From team battles?   Absolutely.

 

That player can earn crystals from DM, JUG or... start a new account.

 

Only way I'd remotely consider having that person on my team would be if they 1) brought Isida and 2) equipped the healing alt.

At least that way they can contribute somewhat.

 

Missions are hard enough - don't need another handi-cap.

[u812ic 1,629]

That might be true. But this is a sabotage, which is not illegal from the perspective of the rules. And even if he made mistakes in the past i.e. by drowning all crystals into paints, gifts or drugs and not using it for higher equipment modifications and he wants to play normal again (in case he got a eureka moment), should he be blocked out so that he can't earn crystals anymore?

I repeat: He/She has 1,172,338 crystals. Enough to buy what is needed. This player is hoarding crystals....for what? Because the crystals are there to buy a good turret (at least) then the player is still a saboteur and still needs to be blocked until said combo is bought. None of the turrets can be upgraded past M0 10/10. And don't argue that a M0 10/10 is the same as an M1 0/10. At this rank the player should have no less than M2 with some MUs. On top of that, this player has 64 gold boxes. That's an extra 64,000 crystals for a grand total of 1,236,338 crystals. With the crystals this player has he/she can buy a pro pass, create a private battle, don't invite anyone and drop all 64 boxes to convert into crystals. 

 

Your a Legend. Do you want this player on your team, knowing what you know? Would you invite this player to battle if your team is in a jam? Or would you invite someone who has updated equipment? Personally, I'd prefer the latter. This player's K/D is 0.34. That's a K/D of a mult, but since the player has been active at one time, then I doubt he/she is a mult, but rather a saboteur. 

 

You haven't convinced me. My suggestion stands.

[Tani_S 736]

From team battles?   Absolutely.

 

That player can earn crystals from DM, JUG or... start a new account.

 

Only way I'd remotely consider having that person on my team would be if they 1) brought Isida and 2) equipped the healing alt.

At least that way they can contribute somewhat.

 

Missions are hard enough - don't need another handi-cap.

Understood.

 

A side note regarding having a low equipment healing companion: It was found out that any alteration can only be equipped if the tanker has the respective gun on M1 level or higher. At least in this case not even this way would work ^^

 

 

 

I repeat: He/She has 1,172,338 crystals. Enough to buy what is needed. This player is hoarding crystals....for what? Because the crystals are there to buy a good turret (at least) then the player is still a saboteur and still needs to be blocked until said combo is bought. None of the turrets can be upgraded past M0 10/10. And don't argue that a M0 10/10 is the same as an M1 0/10. At this rank the player should have no less than M2 with some MUs. On top of that, this player has 64 gold boxes. That's an extra 64,000 crystals for a grand total of 1,236,338 crystals. With the crystals this player has he/she can buy a pro pass, create a private battle, don't invite anyone and drop all 64 boxes to convert into crystals. 

 

Your a Legend. Do you want this player on your team, knowing what you know? Would you invite this player to battle if your team is in a jam? Or would you invite someone who has updated equipment? Personally, I'd prefer the latter. This player's K/D is 0.34. That's a K/D of a mult, but since the player has been active at one time, then I doubt he/she is a mult, but rather a saboteur. 

 

You haven't convinced me. My suggestion stands.

 

 

Yes, he shouldn't have less than M2. Surely, I wouldn't want him to be on my team, but I've played quite often with him already - also no wonder as he is really active and he spent way more than twice as many hours in game than me. Interestingly I encountered him in Rio non-drug pro battles.

 

I just wanted to point out that your suggestion would need to include those cases and you stated that blocking should be consequently applied here as well. However, this would mean that Devs should block players for most parts of the game (all team modes then and so most missions) by standard under certain conditions. They would probably need to adapt the rules for that too.

 

 

The terms "saboteur"/"mult" are a lot about definitions. The classic (Tanki) definition of mults is not the same as those mults that people refer to when talk about bad team mates in matchmaking battles - from my POV they are bad, because they need to play something that they don't like to play and they don't fit to play in the specific setting.

 

 

 

I would love to see more balance in the game. I think it would be best to let those people play together that are weak and separately those that are strong. The thing is that I don't think that devs would want that, as they want to trigger a competition of equipment => following the approach; the more imbalances in the game, the higher the pressure to buy something -> the better for the business. Tanki let's all people play together. I have the feeling that this was also the reason why the Kick2 system was not accepted. People that can't keep up with the performance of the team (out of whatsoever reason) were never sorted out as far as I know.

 

The good thing about this suggestion is that can handle most problems of M0/M1 usage in high ranks and it's an automatic solution for the "intentional weak equipment", which is great and it helps saving the time of battle mods.

[u812ic 1,629]

 

 

(1)..Yes, he shouldn't have less than M2. Surely, I wouldn't want him to be on my team, but I've played quite often with him already - also no wonder as (1) he is really active and he spent way more than twice as many hours in game than me. Interestingly I encountered him in Rio non-drug pro battles.  

 

(2)..I just wanted to point out that your suggestion would need to include those cases and you stated that blocking should be consequently applied here as well. However, this would mean that Devs should block players for most parts of the game (all team modes then and so most missions) by standard under certain conditions. They would probably need to adapt the rules for that too.

 

 

(3)..The terms "saboteur"/"mult" are a lot about definitions. The classic (Tanki) definition of mults is not the same as those mults that people refer to when talk about bad team mates in matchmaking battles - from my POV they are bad, because they need to play something that they don't like to play and they don't fit to play in the specific setting.

 

 

 

(4)..I would love to see more balance in the game. I think it would be best to let those people play together that are weak and separately those that are strong. The thing is that I don't think that devs would want that, as they want to trigger a competition of equipment => following the approach; the more imbalances in the game, the higher the pressure to buy something -> the better for the business. Tanki let's all people play together. I have the feeling that this was also the reason why the Kick2 system was not accepted. People that can't keep up with the performance of the team (out of whatsoever reason) were never sorted out as far as I know.

 

(2)..The good thing about this suggestion is that can handle most problems of M0/M1 usage in high ranks and it's an automatic solution for the "intentional weak equipment", which is great and (5)..it helps saving the time of battle mods.

 

So, it seems as though, in most cases, you agree with me. What I don't understand, you wouldn't want him on your team, yet you are defending him. See notations (1) and (2). 

 

All I'm saying is that M0 equipment does not belong in higher ranking battles. Once the M2 becomes available the M0 equipment cannot be converted to an M1, you have to buy the M2. I know that from experience. 

 

(1)..It doesn't matter how long he's been playing, that's irrelevant. 

 

(2)..Yes, they should be blocked from any and all game play. However, it has been pointed out to me that M0 equipment is used in parkour. I accept that, because parkour is not a battle mode like CTF, TDM, CP, etc. So, this suggestion would not apply to them. The only ones I suggest being blocked are M0 turrets and hulls where the M2 is unlocked. At this point, the M0 is ineffective in battle. The player you gave as an example clearly shows this. If his weapons were effective, then his K/D wouldn't be so low. 

 

(3)..Before MM came out, the term "mult" originally applied to players who had an alt account playing in the same battle. This mult usually did nothing more than take up space on the opposing team making them shorthanded. The more mults on a team, the weaker the team is. They were also used for XP and crystal farming. I've seen this with my own eyes. From the lobby, I saw a lower ranking player scoring while the much higher ranking player had no score at all. Since farming XP and crystals can no longer be done in private battles, it has to be done in "public" battles. This was set up as CTF 2vs2 for 60 minutes. I joined his team mostly to observe. This player was on blue team, went into red base, killed the opponent (who never fought back) grabbed the flag, and killed him again, then capped. Rinse and repeat. I logged out and joined the red team to give him a fight. As soon as he saw me, he disappeared and the other tank disappeared a couple seconds later. There was still 30 minutes left in battle. The player lost his crystals, but kept the XP.  This is just an example to explain what a mult originally meant. Now the term has evolved to include bad players. I am not advocating that the player you gave as an example is a mult, he is a saboteur, as I previously mentioned. Because he has the crystals to buy appropriate turrets, he is intentionally using weaker equipment, which is against the rules of sabotage. 

 

(4)...Your trying to change the subject. This has nothing to do with poor players vs strong players or Tanki making money. Please stay on topic. 

 

(5)...This has nothing to do with making the Battle Mod's job easier. It's about fair game play and a way to get some of the saboteurs off the battlefield. 

 

You said you wouldn't want him on your team, but you didn't say why you wouldn't want him. If you don't want him on your team, then why are you so adamantly defending him? 

[wolverine848 13,097]

(4)...Your trying to change the subject. This has nothing to do with poor players vs strong players or Tanki making money. Please stay on topic. 

 

4) Is actually relevant to the subject.

 

Tani pretty much agrees with the idea in principle.

 

4) is explaining why the idea is unlikely to be implemented.  Devs purposely promote imbalance in order to sell more items

[GorgoBlesk 831]

This wouldn't apply to those turrets and hulls, but it would with your M0 Railgun. M0 becomes available at Corporal, M1 at WO3, M2 at 1st Lieutenant and M3 at Marshal. As Brigadier General, do you use your M0 Railgun in battle?

I do not use M0 hulls and turrets in MM but I sometimes use them in PRO battles, especially the Rail. Players who do not have M2/M3 Rail sometimes agree to play unofficial XP/BP in non-format PRO battles.

[Tani_S 736]

You said you wouldn't want him on your team, but you didn't say why you wouldn't want him. If you don't want him on your team, then why are you so adamantly defending him? 

It was not my intention to adamantly defend him. I am mainly putting up some questions to discuss the implications of the suggestion.

 

I was just checking some perspectives, that's why my post seemed to be a bit contradicting.

- On one side, you have the perspective of the profile guy: you don't play effectively and because of that you make him play even less effectively in DM and other drug battles. Yet we can't be 100% sure about that he didn't just spend the crystals unwisely and that he really knows what he is doing. On the other hand it's pretty ridiculous already^^

- My perspective as team mate: I wouldn't want him in the team, because he obviously is a very low performer. Yet I see that this is not only individual problem, but rather a nuisance that has a systemic cause.

- To point 4 (Devs perspective). It is exactly like wolverine described for the overwhelming part I fully support the idea, but I just described the background why the devs might not want to implement the approach.

 

Tanki needs to set proper borders for maximum performers and borders for minimum performers in the games (and this suggestion is one of them), but that is pretty much against their years-long philosophy.

[u812ic 1,629]

 

It was not my intention to adamantly defend him. I am mainly putting up some questions to discuss the implications of the suggestion.

 

I was just checking some perspectives, that's why my post seemed to be a bit contradicting.

- On one side, you have the perspective of the profile guy: (1)...you don't play effectively and because of that you make him play even less effectively in DM and other drug battles. (2)..Yet we can't be 100% sure about that he didn't just spend the crystals unwisely and that he really knows what he is doing. On the other hand it's pretty ridiculous already^^

- My perspective as team mate: (3)...I wouldn't want him in the team, because he obviously is a very low performer. (4)...Yet I see that this is not only individual problem, but rather a nuisance that has a systemic cause.

(5)...- To point 4 (Devs perspective). It is exactly like wolverine described for the overwhelming part I fully support the idea, but I just described the background why the devs might not want to implement the approach.

 

Tanki needs to set proper borders for maximum performers and borders for minimum performers in the games (and this suggestion is one of them), but that is pretty much against their years-long philosophy.

 

(1)...Dm is a drug battle, true, but so is all of MM and Pro battles. Unless I'm missing your definition of "drug battles." In the past few years, TO has evolved more into the importance of supplies than I have ever seen it. Are you suggesting to let the saboteurs play but only in their own saboteur battles? Or have servers dedicated to M0 equipment? 

 

(2)...Look at his profile, there is absolutely no question as to what he has done with his crystals. He is hoarding them, not spending them. OK, we have been picking on this one guy long enough. He's not the only guilty one in Tanki. I see M0 Railguns, occasionally. I've been shot by them, too. Yes, they reduce my armor a bit, but they would have to hit me several times to kill me. The damage is like a minor knee scrape. 

 

(3)...That we agree on. 

 

(4)...Yes, it is the problem of the individual. It's a choice that person is making. By the time they reach MSgt, they should have pretty well figured this game out. At the rank of WO1, they have a pretty good grasp on the concept. And, yes, they are a nuisance, a big nuisance. That is their intention. What do you mean by "systemic problem"?

 

(5)...This is still NOT about weak players vs strong players. This is about players making educated decisions to sabotage a team by purposefully using weaker equipment when they have stronger equipment in the garage or the resources to buy better equipment. I'm not picking on non-buyers, so don't even go there. This is my only buying account. I have a few others that I have bought nothing for with real world money. Yet, I've managed to keep up the equipment to match their ranks. Yes, the game is imbalanced. Yes, the Devs have to make money. After all, this is their bread and butter. But I don't think they are going about it the right way. I'm not a Developer, I know nothing about the making of a game, so, I cannot speak for them. 

 

This suggestion should be implemented, because the reason behind it is a way to close at least one avenue for saboteurs. 

 

You keep going on about weak players vs strong players; Devs keeping the game imbalanced to make money; players with different playing abilities playing together. This has nothing to do with that. It's about playing by the rules that the Devs, themselves, have implemented. Refer to the spoiler in post #25. 

[u812ic 1,629]

I do not use M0 hulls and turrets in MM but I sometimes use them in PRO battles, especially the Rail. Players who do not have M2/M3 Rail sometimes agree to play unofficial XP/BP in non-format PRO battles.

Sorry for the double post. I just saw this entry.

 

I understand where you are coming from. If this is agreed upon by both teams, then I don't see the problem. I can, also, see the can of worms you're handing me. Maybe I should take the advice of @sensei_tanker and focus more on MM and let the Pro battles take care of themselves. 

[Tani_S 736]

(4)...Yes, it is the problem of the individual. It's a choice that person is making. By the time they reach MSgt, they should have pretty well figured this game out. At the rank of WO1, they have a pretty good grasp on the concept. And, yes, they are a nuisance, a big nuisance. That is their intention. What do you mean by "systemic problem"?

A systemic problem that Tanki doesn't match people with weak performances (you agree with me that he's playing ineffectively, independently of being a saboteur or not) and the problem that people have access to these ranks with this equipment.

 

You keep going on about weak players vs strong players; Devs keeping the game imbalanced to make money; players with different playing abilities playing together. This has nothing to do with that. It's about playing by the rules that the Devs, themselves, have implemented. Refer to the spoiler in post #25. 

Well, I already told you that I am pretty sure that playing with the highest modification levels, which the guy has in his garage (but which is in comparison to the rank and the others in the battle a weak equipment) is not considered as an intentional selection of weak equipment. But I think it's best to ask the question on this in this topic >>Link to go 100% sure.

[u812ic 1,629]

@Tani_S....I contacted the Battle Mod this afternoon, but I haven't gotten an answer, yet

[u812ic 1,629]

@Tani_S....

 

OK, you win this round. Here's the answer from @Mr_STIFFLER

 

This situation will be considered as " Sabotage " if this player has m1 or + and using m0 in battles , but this player has ONLY m0's equipments . So this isn't sabotage .

Always remember that Tanki Online is a free game and no one is obligated to buy anything . Crystals can be used for supplies or paints or whatever . 

 

But my suggestion still stands, because there are players with better equipment using M0s in battle. 

[Tani_S 736]

 

 

@Tani_S....

 

OK, you win this round. Here's the answer from @Mr_STIFFLER

 

This situation will be considered as " Sabotage " if this player has m1 or + and using m0 in battles , but this player has ONLY m0's equipments . So this isn't sabotage .

 

Always remember that Tanki Online is a free game and no one is obligated to buy anything . Crystals can be used for supplies or paints or whatever . 

 

But my suggestion still stands, because there are players with better equipment using M0s in battle. 

 

 

Thanks for clarifying!