The Hornet OD Issue

[sensei_tanker 3,098]

Hornet OD has recently become one of the most annoying and dangerous ODs. This is because it can override double armor and protection modules. However, the OD itself isn't necessarily broken, it's the system the developers have spent creating the past 5 years is causing the issue. By 2015, the developers have been feeding players supplies after the smart cooldowns update, which prevented people from spamming all 3 drugs at once, but gave everyone access to virtually infinite supplies. This means, everyone's turret has double power and everyone's hull has double armor in order to counter it. Drugging became a game of nullification, where you spam drugs just to nullify the opponent's drugs. Next, the developers separated paints from protection modules. Now, when balancing turrets, they took into account which turrets had the most popular protection modules and the least popular protection modules. So, powerful turrets such as thunder, which naturally have the most broadly used protection modules, remained powerful and was even buffed multiple times, and players are forced to buy its protection modules to nullify its strength. Later, the developers created alterations. There are so many alterations that basically buffs the damage to the point where one shot is inevitable. Railgun LCR (which is just OG railgun) and Shaft HC (guarantee one shot with bonus damage) are all clear examples of turrets that will one shot you unless you have both double armor and its respective protection modules. The introduction of more turrets that can one shot also made the balance very delicate. Magnum and Gauss also threatened to one shot your tank unless you had double armor or its protection module.

 

As you see, the system has been altered the last 5 years to put game balance in a very precarious position. The developers, instead of nerfing/buffing, created a system of "checks and balances" to balance their game. Game balance isn't created by nerfing specific aspects of the game. Instead, Game balance is created by creating defenses that nullifies other imbalances. So, there is underlying imbalance in the game because players are forced to have specific equipment in order to give themselves game balance, in order to check opponents' powerful equipment. So, the introduction of Hornet OD violates this system of "checks and balances" because it overrides the checks of double armor and protection modules that protect a player from getting instantly one shotted. Hornet OD itself shouldn't be OP. The system where players is inevitably one shotted by virtually every mid to long range turret is making the issue very bad. We shouldn't be forced to wear protection modules to counter strong turrets. The developers need to actually nerf strong turrets when they become too powerful. Balance shouldn't be something created by players, it should be created by the developers. 

[Viking4s 10,791]

ah, i was starting to miss one of your new topic, I thought you were not feeling well or something.

[featwasath 267]

The golden era of TO was before that paint-protection removal update. Players could really enjoy the game without worrying about supplies much & there were many fun things like Polygon CP XP/BP battles. But Tanki introduced a lot of unnecessary things & ruined the game balance. Now we're at a point that ODs are essential, so you can do something instead of getting killed duck sitting, as a free player. I agree with this point, but the solution is not to remove the Hornet OD. We need it to counter those strong buyers who has a drone + 50% protection module + double armor.

[wolverine848 13,097]

On 6/22/2020 at 12:50 PM, featwasath said:

Players could really enjoy the game without worrying about supplies much

What do you mean?

Back in 2015 I had few supplies and was getting stomped by the players that had lots.

I'm a non-buyer that has invested my hard-earned crystals into modules.  Those are rendered useless by the swarms of hornets that get to ignore ALL defenses for 20 seconds. OTT IMO.

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

On 6/22/2020 at 9:50 AM, featwasath said:

but the solution is not to remove the Hornet OD.

Bruh, we were not/are not asking it to be removed. We just want it nerfed reasonably. Huge difference.

[JohnMatrix 18]

Was getting sick of sitting on the fence with most of the topics. Feels good to finally fall off & relieve my backside.

[featwasath 267]

On 6/25/2020 at 9:44 PM, DieselPlatinum said:

Bruh, we were not/are not asking it to be removed. We just want it nerfed reasonably. Huge difference.

Yeah, then those buyers with 50% protection modules & DA can dominate battle fileds because no one can kill them

 

On 6/25/2020 at 9:20 PM, wolverine848 said:

What do you mean?

Back in 2015 I had few supplies and was getting stomped by the players that had lots.

I'm a non-buyer that has invested my hard-earned crystals into modules.  Those are rendered useless by the swarms of hornets that get to ignore ALL defenses for 20 seconds. OTT IMO.

Well, maybe I didn't have to face such chaos as I wasn't a higher ranker back then

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

7 minutes ago, featwasath said:

Yeah, then those buyers with 50% protection modules & DA

Why is this a problem but not hornets murdering everyone in seconds if not instantly?

[featwasath 267]

1 hour ago, DieselPlatinum said:

Why is this a problem but not hornets murdering everyone in seconds if not instantly?

Cause that's what an OD is meant to do. A huge advantage to the user 

[sharifsahaf 656]

Just remove the spawn protection ignorance and i have no other problem with hornet OD 

[wolverine848 13,097]

5 hours ago, featwasath said:

Cause that's what an OD is meant to do. A huge advantage to the user 

Not supposed to be THAT easy.   

Can do so at ANY range and there's no counter.  Unlike say... wasp or dictator or Titan.

[cosmic666 1,055]

On 6/22/2020 at 5:50 PM, featwasath said:

The golden era of TO was before that paint-protection removal update. Players could really enjoy the game without worrying about supplies much & there were many fun things like Polygon CP XP/BP battles. But Tanki introduced a lot of unnecessary things & ruined the game balance. Now we're at a point that ODs are essential, so you can do something instead of getting killed duck sitting, as a free player. I agree with this point, but the solution is not to remove the Hornet OD. We need it to counter those strong buyers who has a drone + 50% protection module + double armor.

WRONG, HORNETS overdrive has for many many weeks been the issue of a lot of complaints because it is THE most OP piece of equipment ever in the entire history of TO. It needs a substantial nerf, are better Still get rid of all OVERDRIVES. I for one do not need to rely on them if they are removed from the game altogether.  

[cosmic666 1,055]

On 6/22/2020 at 5:27 PM, sensei_tanker said:

Hornet OD has recently become one of the most annoying and dangerous ODs. This is because it can override double armor and protection modules. However, the OD itself isn't necessarily broken, it's the system the developers have spent creating the past 5 years is causing the issue. By 2015, the developers have been feeding players supplies after the smart cooldowns update, which prevented people from spamming all 3 drugs at once, but gave everyone access to virtually infinite supplies. This means, everyone's turret has double power and everyone's hull has double armor in order to counter it. Drugging became a game of nullification, where you spam drugs just to nullify the opponent's drugs. Next, the developers separated paints from protection modules. Now, when balancing turrets, they took into account which turrets had the most popular protection modules and the least popular protection modules. So, powerful turrets such as thunder, which naturally have the most broadly used protection modules, remained powerful and was even buffed multiple times, and players are forced to buy its protection modules to nullify its strength. Later, the developers created alterations. There are so many alterations that basically buffs the damage to the point where one shot is inevitable. Railgun LCR (which is just OG railgun) and Shaft HC (guarantee one shot with bonus damage) are all clear examples of turrets that will one shot you unless you have both double armor and its respective protection modules. The introduction of more turrets that can one shot also made the balance very delicate. Magnum and Gauss also threatened to one shot your tank unless you had double armor or its protection module.

 

As you see, the system has been altered the last 5 years to put game balance in a very precarious position. The developers, instead of nerfing/buffing, created a system of "checks and balances" to balance their game. Game balance isn't created by nerfing specific aspects of the game. Instead, Game balance is created by creating defenses that nullifies other imbalances. So, there is underlying imbalance in the game because players are forced to have specific equipment in order to give themselves game balance, in order to check opponents' powerful equipment. So, the introduction of Hornet OD violates this system of "checks and balances" because it overrides the checks of double armor and protection modules that protect a player from getting instantly one shotted. Hornet OD itself shouldn't be OP. The system where players is inevitably one shotted by virtually every mid to long range turret is making the issue very bad. We shouldn't be forced to wear protection modules to counter strong turrets. The developers need to actually nerf strong turrets when they become too powerful. Balance shouldn't be something created by players, it should be created by the developers. 

Just 1 thing, it's the players who make the game what it is, so we the players should be able to have a say in what has become, a very complicated and very unbalanced game. By having a say, i mean in regards to what the majority of players no is a fair and balanced game, and the devs should SERIOUSLY listen to the feedback from players that have been in the game for years, and have seen countless changes over the years that have impacted the game in a detrimental and unfair way. My main issues are MM and OVERDRIVES, these two massive updates have now redefined how well you do in any battle regardless of the map. The MM will take a lot of work to make it balanced at the various ranks, but getting rid of OVERDRIVES would be a lot easier and solve a big problem, especially HORNET which as we all no is DOMINATING battles with the HUGE advantage it has over every other hull. I think this more than anything would balance the game out for a lot of players, and then we can move on to reworking the dreadful MM which affects every player with the exception of LEGENDS and possibly GIZMOS.   

[cosmic666 1,055]

On 6/25/2020 at 5:14 PM, DieselPlatinum said:

Bruh, we were not/are not asking it to be removed. We just want it nerfed reasonably. Huge difference.

I am.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

42 minutes ago, cosmic666 said:

but getting rid of OVERDRIVES would be a lot easier and solve a big problem, especially HORNET which as we all no is DOMINATING battles with the HUGE advantage it has over every other hull.

LOL, I use Hornet-Shaft but I rarely dominate battles whenever I play matchmaking.  One reason: I don't use manual supplies as much as I used to be. Not to mention my K/D is still 0.98 than 1+ you would think it be. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by FrozenRailgun

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

7 hours ago, featwasath said:

Cause that's what an OD is meant to do. A huge advantage to the user 

Like @wolverine848 said, there's no way to counter hornets OD while other ODs like mammoth, Viking, and hunter have at least 3 or more counters against them.

[Gauss-Hornet 489]

After the supplies update, I tried using Hornet throughout the lower ranks, and I must say the Overdrive is really disappointing. It's nothing but a radar showing enemies. Sure, I could ignore the Titan domes and DA of those ocassional Dictators using their OD, but without Double Damage (and some tough resistance like DA and Modules to counter) it's just... nothing.

I guess it's OP only when used with long-ranged turrets and camping, while using damage boosts from DD and drones to get easy one-shot kills.

Would have been much better to give it a slower recharge rate and lesser ignoring capability, while giving a slight boost to base damage as a compensation.

[wolverine848 13,097]

10 minutes ago, Gauss-Hornet said:

After the supplies update, I tried using Hornet throughout the lower ranks, and I must say the Overdrive is really disappointing. It's nothing but a radar showing enemies. Sure, I could ignore the Titan domes and DA of those ocassional Dictators using their OD, but without Double Damage (and some tough resistance like DA and Modules to counter) it's just... nothing.

I guess it's OP only when used with long-ranged turrets and camping, while using damage boosts from DD and drones to get easy one-shot kills.

Would have been much better to give it a slower recharge rate and lesser ignoring capability, while giving a slight boost to base damage as a compensation.

You don't stay in those ranks for long.  99% of your playing time overall you will have access to supplies.

Even a moderate boost to damage will be OP - since DD will soon be applied on top of that.

And then there's the opposite - wasp bomb - no one at really low ranks escapes that - all are too slow and no SB.

[Gauss-Hornet 489]

1 minute ago, wolverine848 said:

You don't stay in those ranks for long.  99% of your playing time overall you will have access to supplies.

Even a moderate boost to damage will be OP - since DD will soon be applied on top of that.

And then there's the opposite - wasp bomb - no one at really low ranks escapes that - all are too slow and no SB.

Hmm... I see your point. If the efficiency of ODs were to be plotted with increasing rank, then Hornet would see a continuous rise while Wasp would have a sudden decline. 

Maybe that's the way Tanki wants it to be. Dominate with Wasp or Dictator at the beginning, and with Hornet at the end. 

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

2 hours ago, Gauss-Hornet said:

Hmm... I see your point. If the efficiency of ODs were to be plotted with increasing rank, then Hornet would see a continuous rise while Wasp would have a sudden decline. 

Maybe that's the way Tanki wants it to be. Dominate with Wasp or Dictator at the beginning, and with Hornet at the end. 

Wasp bomb can still fulfill plenty of tasks in the high ranks:

· Escape route protector.

· Short range titan assassin.

· Hunter OD waster.

· Juggernaut killer.

· Hard-to-kill tank decimator.

· Crowd control.

[KamiGT 143]

It really frustrates me that the way we play Tanki these days is not based on what combo we want to use, but rather on what combo fits a de facto set of rules for gameplay (the checks and balances) which will allow us to be at least halfway successful while using as many supplies as we can and using a drone all the time. If things were balanced, we'd be able to use Isida and get a reasonable score in battle without drones and an incredible amount of supplies. As it stands, some equipment is so weak and some so strong, it is as if the weaker stuff doesn't exist, because it is buried under the power of Hornets and the meta turrets. The current state of the game is one in which a titan probably survives less time on average than a Hornet because of the same factors.

[KamiGT 143]

18 hours ago, Gauss-Hornet said:

After the supplies update, I tried using Hornet throughout the lower ranks, and I must say the Overdrive is really disappointing. It's nothing but a radar showing enemies. Sure, I could ignore the Titan domes and DA of those ocassional Dictators using their OD, but without Double Damage (and some tough resistance like DA and Modules to counter) it's just... nothing.

I guess it's OP only when used with long-ranged turrets and camping, while using damage boosts from DD and drones to get easy one-shot kills.

Would have been much better to give it a slower recharge rate and lesser ignoring capability, while giving a slight boost to base damage as a compensation.

Drones aren't even needed, this is extremely simple to do. Read my post in the RFM thread for details on how broken this is if you are curious.

[ghost-guns 1,486]

Hornet overdrive is the biggest "cheat" in the game. I can one-shot anyone. It's absolutely pointless upgrading your hull protection.

[cosmic666 1,055]

2 Very prominent, and let's all admit this without question, very experienced and capable players echoing the concerns of a lot of players about the unbalanced nature of overdrives, and the inflated prices of maintaining your garage/account once you have acquired a piece of kit/kits. I no this is esports but the concerns are just the same, if not more so in MM.   

[E_polypterus 2,374]

17 hours ago, DieselPlatinum said:

Hunter OD waster

We all know that that’s exactly the opposite. Every time I’m gonna place a bomb first thing I do is check whether there’s a hunter nearby.