invalid Hull Rebalance Idea

[denyes11 7]

Hull Rebalance Idea

            After some thorough thought, I have come up with a rebalance idea that makes a strikingly amount of sense. So much so, that I would argue that the developers would understand the logic behind it with incredible ease. In the current state of the game, we are limited to three different categories: light, medium, and heavy. The main issue I have with this is that there are more medium hulls in their perspective category than their neighboring counterparts. Another issue is that having the same armor for all hulls of the same class is kind of bland and unoriginal. My idea is simple: add an additional category and rename them to better fit the attributes of the hulls included. Each hull would have a unique amount of armor based on its characteristics.

What inspired such an idea?

Players’ Dislike of Hovering Hulls: Hovering hulls have been a major topic of complaints since their release. When browsing the forum, I’ve seen some users go to the tremendous lengths of asking for their removal. I know that the developers do not accept the removal of updates, and as such I would argue that a major rebalance of hulls would most likely satisfy the players.

Diversity: Right now, the three categories of hulls are restricted to having the same armor for each of its counterparts. This is bland, we need more diversity, and this idea would allow people to carefully look at the pros and cons of each hull to carefully pick which one to upgrade and use.

Disclaimer!

This is a base of what this update could look like. It is not final, so please do not reject the idea based solely on the numbers below. Instead, share some constructive feedback with what would work better, etc.

 

Lightweight	Super Lightweight	Middleweight	Heavyweight	Super Heavyweight
Hopper (1600 HP)	Hornet (2000 HP)	Viking (2800 HP)	Dictator (3200 HP)	Titan (3800 HP)
Wasp (1800 HP)	Crusader (2400 HP)	Hunter (3000 HP)	Ares (3600 HP)	Mammoth (4000 HP)

 

Explanations

Lightweight Class

• Wasp: Fastest hull in the game. It is also the smallest in appearance. Being a tracked hull allows it to have a bit more armor than its hovering counterpart.
• Hopper: A moderate decrease in armor/weight is needed to support the hovering and jumping ability of this hull. The difficulty in effectively hitting this hull more than makes up for the loss in armor. Hopper would have the lowest amount of armor in the game.

Super Lightweight Class

• Hornet: Hornet has always been a speedy, yet stable hull throughout the years. For it to keep its speed, the armor is lower than its hovering counterpart. Unchanged.
• Crusader: Again, sacrificing some armor for the ability to hover and easily dodge lines of enemy fire is well justified.

Middleweight Class

• Viking: Being the speediest medium hull in the game and having one of the most powerful overdrives in the game comes with a moderate sacrifice in armor.
• Hunter: Hunter is effectively the epitome of the perfect balance between armor and maneuverability. Unchanged.

Heavyweight Class

• Dictator: This hull easily bears the very characteristics of a heavy hull with its towering appearance and ability to aim high. As such, an increase in armor allows it to achieve its original potential, which was nerfed in earlier updates. Wasn't Dictator classified as a heavy hull in Tanki X as well?
• Ares: It’s a miracle that Ares would be able to hover with that much armor in the past. A reduction in armor is a must for it to maintain such an ability. Being slower than its counterpart allows it to have a bit more armor.

Super Heavyweight Class

• Titan: The faster counterpart in this class, comes with a bit less armor in turn.
• Mammoth: A classic; comes with the benefit of the most armor in the game due to its incredibly slow speed. Unchanged.

[Tanker-Arthur 2,971]

Honestly, I would love if this idea was implemented in the game. It would also help justify Crusader's existence because, currently, having 4 medium hulls doesn't seem to fit at all since light hulls only have three and heavy hulls also only have three. So the five classes with two hulls in each class is a pretty good of distributing the hulls.

 

Also, normally, I would've had Hopper have more health than Hornet (cause in the game right now, it technically has the slower speed), but since I myself don't really like Hopper at all, the health nerf is much appreciated. 

 

And thanks for saying that Dictator should have more health than Hunter and Viking. That thing is literally bigger than Titan, so there's no reason why it's just as fragile as Hunter and Viking in the game currently lol.

 

The only change I would suggest it to rename the Wasp-Hopper class to "Super Lightweight" and the Hornet-Crusader class to "Lightweight". Mainly because Wasp and Hopper are....more light then Hornet and Crusader.

[Spy 14,913]

Status changed to - Under review.

[Debt-Collector 1,617]

I like this idea however, due to the recent nerfs to the hovering hulls movement such with its reverse acceleration thus making hoppers acceleration affected the most, I say that hoppers HP should increase slightly. Recently I tried hopper and it seems that the driving start moves like a medium hull class which is relatively slow as a light weight class. Yes granted the speed is still the same as before, but the start off when moving is extremely slow and hopper became more vulnerable to attacks since it can't dodge as fast as before. (If you guys think what I'm saying is BS please actually try to use hopper now.) 

[Blutaar 1,904]

I support your idea. The points you made are solid and your suggestion appears suitable and practical. As you already mentioned, there is little diversity in health points among tanks - and health points are the most crucial aspect of hulls - and it is questionable whether the existing categories sufficiently classify the diversity in hulls. Currently I am in the possession of three medium hulls being Viking, Hunter and Crusader, but since the finalisation of the hovering- hull-project I have only been using Crusader since because of its agility, hovering+strafing and overdrive while still keeping the regular 3000 HP. Apart from these advantages, it stands out among the other medium hulls that have little diversity. True diversity between all hulls is missing and that's why I like this suggestion. 

Even so, I believe that some changes should occur with some items if the idea were to be considered. E.g. the current speed of Crusader does not match the suggested HP, having the same speed stat as Dictator, unless you increase it's HP by a bit or increase its speed (between these I prefer the former, the latter possibly transforming Crusader in a sturdier Hopper). The HP of Hopper is a bit on the lower end as well, despite it being incredibly agile and a pest to deal with. A regular Magnum's and Gauss' shot and a Railgun's critical are enough to OHKO it. Even though the hull is rightfully disliked by others, I think 1600 HP is close to unplayable. Whether Wasp's 1800 points are fair is questionable too. 

Taking these things into account you could increase the HP of the super-lightweights and the regular lightweights by 200 each. This would mean: 

Lightweight	Super Lightweight
Hopper (1600 HP)    Hopper (1800 HP)	Hornet (2000 HP)    Hornet (2200 HP)
Wasp (1800 HP)    Wasp (2000 HP)	Crusader (2400 HP)   Crusader (2600 HP)

This is how I approached the issue, but if one disagrees or knows another way how to tackle it feel free to reply. 

[alkyng 3,081]

I really liked your idea , but I think you went extreme in Hopper's health. Hopper must be nerfed, but the problem isn't in the health. So it's better to solve the problem rather than giving it a lesser health.

Wasp is honestly in a disadvantage compared to Hornet, Wasp have a slower maneuverability and way more easier to flip. Wasp's maneuverability isn't a compatible ever with its speed

[EmeraldCat 562]

13 hours ago, denyes11 said:

Lightweight	Super Lightweight	Middleweight	Heavyweight	Super Heavyweight
Hopper (1600 HP)	Hornet (2000 HP)	Viking (2800 HP)	Dictator (3200 HP)	Titan (3800 HP)
Wasp (1800 HP)	Crusader (2400 HP)	Hunter (3000 HP)	Ares (3600 HP)	Mammoth (4000 HP)

It's a cool idea, but these numbers don't exactly add up. You're going to change the speeds too, right? Because the hp spread goes from 2,000-4,000hp, and then the speed spread goes from 6m/s-12m/s. Making it 1,600-4,000 creates an off-balance. Hopper and Wasp are now too weak to actually compete.

Hopper 1600
200
Wasp 1800
200
Hornet 2000
400
Crusader 2400
400
Viking 2800
200
Hunter 3000
200
Dictator 3200
400
Ares 3600
200
Titan 3800
200
Mammoth 4000

Not only is the hp spread off balance, but there seems to be an off balance between hp separation. But, I don't blame you since Tanki decided to add a 4th medium hull even though we didn't need one, and completed made things unbalanced.

 

I've come up with a simpler idea, one where we can have an hp spread, but at the same time, stay in between the borders of 2k-4k and 6m/s-12m/s.

I'll only give small details on my idea, but for starters, we only need 9 hulls in the game, so we can get rid of Crusader, then convert the 2 existing Hovering hulls to tracked hulls, maybe give them a name change, then, give each hull separate hp's. I'd like the Devs to stop fantasizing in Hovercrafti. Also, with the separation of hull hp's, we don't need individual overdrives, so we can either delete Overdrives, or return the Zero Supply with a few balance changes to it. That's basically part of my idea so far, and as much as I'm willing to say for the time being.

[denyes11 7]

12 hours ago, Tanker-Arthur said:

Also, normally, I would've had Hopper have more health than Hornet (cause in the game right now, it technically has the slower speed), but since I myself don't really like Hopper at all, the health nerf is much appreciated. 

The only change I would suggest it to rename the Wasp-Hopper class to "Super Lightweight" and the Hornet-Crusader class to "Lightweight". Mainly because Wasp and Hopper are....more light then Hornet and Crusader.

Although Hopper is slower than hornet, I decided to take its ability to jump as a main factor in decreasing its armor. Your second point makes a lot of sense too! Although my logic behind naming is because I believe "super" means having greater power, capacity, etc. than another of its kind. As such, the a hull of Super Lightweight class would be able to maintain an excellent speed, but with the added advantage of more stability/durability.

12 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

I like this idea however, due to the recent nerfs to the hovering hulls movement such with its reverse acceleration thus making hoppers acceleration affected the most, I say that hoppers HP should increase slightly.

I'll accept that. I too, think that I over exaggerated the decrease in armor. Like @BloodPressure said, maybe increase it to 1800 since 1600 is too low to compete.

11 hours ago, BloodPressure said:

 True diversity between all hulls is missing and that's why I like this suggestion. 

Even so, I believe that some changes should occur with some items if the idea were to be considered. E.g. the current speed of Crusader does not match the suggested HP, having the same speed stat as Dictator, unless you increase it's HP by a bit or increase its speed (between these I prefer the former, the latter possibly transforming Crusader in a sturdier Hopper). The HP of Hopper is a bit on the lower end as well, despite it being incredibly agile and a pest to deal with. A regular Magnum's and Gauss' shot and a Railgun's critical are enough to OHKO it. Even though the hull is rightfully disliked by others, I think 1600 HP is close to unplayable. Whether Wasp's 1800 points are fair is questionable too. 

Taking these things into account you could increase the HP of the super-lightweights and the regular lightweights by 200 each. This would mean: 

Lightweight	Super Lightweight
Hopper (1600 HP)    Hopper (1800 HP)	Hornet (2000 HP)    Hornet (2200 HP)
Wasp (1800 HP)    Wasp (2000 HP)	Crusader (2400 HP)   Crusader (2600 HP)

This is how I approached the issue, but if one disagrees or knows another way how to tackle it feel free to reply. 

Your point makes a lot of sense! I just didn't know whether to extend the window of armor (originally 2000-4000), so I just decided to play it safe and try to keep it in between those figures. In essence, I think that the developers should modify each characteristic of hulls to make it unique. For example, Wasp has speed. Mammoth obviously has the most armor. Dictator has incredible reach. Hovering hulls can strafe. Perhaps they can also add new and unique attributes, as I originally thought would be the case, but instead we got overdrives. I have nothing against them, but sometimes I feel that players overly depend on them in the current meta.

5 hours ago, asem.harbi said:

I really liked your idea , but I think you went extreme in Hopper's health. Hopper must be nerfed, but the problem isn't in the health. So it's better to solve the problem rather than giving it a lesser health.

Wasp is honestly in a disadvantage compared to Hornet, Wasp have a slower maneuverability and way more easier to flip. Wasp's maneuverability isn't a compatible ever with its speed

Very true, my idea nerfs hopper to the extremes. I remember an update a while ago doubled the armor of each hull, and it just took too long to gather kills. I took that update into consideration as well, because I did not know whether or not to increase the window of armor that we currently have. Maybe a small extension in health to heavy hulls would work better, something along the lines of +-200.

47 minutes ago, Emeraldcat345 said:

It's a cool idea, but these numbers don't exactly add up. You're going to change the speeds too, right? Because the hp spread goes from 2,000-4,000hp, and then the speed spread goes from 6m/s-12m/s. Making it 1,600-4,000 creates an off-balance. Hopper and Wasp are now too weak to actually compete.

 

Not only is the hp spread off balance, but there seems to be an off balance between hp separation. But, I don't blame you since Tanki decided to add a 4th medium hull even though we didn't need one, and completed made things unbalanced.

 

I've come up with a simpler idea, one where we can have an hp spread, but at the same time, stay in between the borders of 2k-4k and 6m/s-12m/s.

I'll only give small details on my idea, but for starters, we only need 9 hulls in the game, so we can get rid of Crusader, then convert the 2 existing Hovering hulls to tracked hulls, maybe give them a name change, then, give each hull separate hp's. I'd like the Devs to stop fantasizing in Hovercrafti. Also, with the separation of hull hp's, we don't need individual overdrives, so we can either delete Overdrives, or return the Zero Supply with a few balance changes to it. That's basically part of my idea so far, and as much as I'm willing to say for the time being.

Yes, I did not want the idea to bee too convoluted, so that is why I did not go into extreme details on each and every characteristic. Kept it to armor only. Although I think that the attributes of each hull should be reworked in order for their uniqueness to emerge. For example, Wasp can be fast, but very unstable. Mammoth can be slow, but incredibly stable. One hull can have the best acceleration, but least pushing power. You can see where I am going with this: better distinction between them, and also allows the players to think carefully about which one they are going to use in a specific scenario.

Although overdrives may seem unnecessary, I don't think developers have the presence of mind to delete them. That is why I did not suggested their removal, but that is an entirely different topic of its own.

[EmeraldCat 562]

11 minutes ago, denyes11 said:

Yes, I did not want the idea to bee too convoluted, so that is why I did not go into extreme details on each and every characteristic. Kept it to armor only. Although I think that the attributes of each hull should be reworked in order for their uniqueness to emerge. For example, Wasp can be fast, but very unstable. Mammoth can be slow, but incredibly stable. One hull can have the best acceleration, but least pushing power. You can see where I am going with this: better distinction between them, and also allows the players to think carefully about which one they are going to use in a specific scenario.

Although overdrives may seem unnecessary, I don't think developers have the presence of mind to delete them. That is why I did not suggested their removal, but that is an entirely different topic of its own.

Actually, I thought about that too. I looked into it, and it turns out, Wasp and Mammoth are equally stable. It's hard to notice because one is double the speed, but, yeah. I'm still thinking about this, but I think with all 3 hulls in each 3 classes, there should be 1 of the same stability for each hull. Like, how Hornet and Viking both can drift, we can have a heavy hull just like those 2.

And with Hunter, I'm going to have to recheck what it is, but it should act a lot like Mammoth and Wasp, just because, one is 1k 10m/s, one is 1.5k 7.5m/s, and one is 2k 5m/s.

Though, it's left undecided yet, because changing the feel of a hull can have a great impact on players.

Also yeah, you make a great point. The Devs aren't going to delete updates, it's even stated on the Ideas & Suggestions rules that we aren't allowed to make ideas about removing updates, but I mean, they're gonna learn the hard way that keeping some updates is going to be their downfall. 

[Tanker-Arthur 2,971]

Just now, Emeraldcat345 said:

Making it 1,600-4,000 creates an off-balance.

To be honest, if each hull has a 200 health difference and the range is 1600 to 4000, I kinda like it better cause it would grant three extra slots for future hulls to be added. Namely, a hull with 2200 HP, a hull with 2600 HP, and one with 3400 HP (these are based on the numbers in @denyes11's original post. I just looked for the 400 health gaps)

 

Or the hull range should be 2000 to 4400 HP, if Wasp and Hopper are too weak with the 1600 and 1800 health. With this, just bump the rest of denyes' hull healths up by 400 hitpoints. All hulls get an equal 400 health buff and everyone lives a bit longer in battles :)

 

Either way, we'd get three slots for three new hulls that are unique based on health, rather than hulls being "unique" based on annoying overdrives in current Tanki. 

[EmeraldCat 562]

3 minutes ago, Tanker-Arthur said:

To be honest, if each hull has a 200 health difference and the range is 1600 to 4000, I kinda like it better cause it would grant three extra slots for future hulls to be added. Namely, a hull with 2200 HP, a hull with 2600 HP, and one with 3400 HP (these are based on the numbers in @denyes11's original post)

 

Or the hull range should be 2000 to 4400 HP, if Wasp and Hopper are too weak with the 1600 and 1800 health. With this, just bump the rest of denyes' hull healths up by 400 hitpoints. 

 

Either way, we'd get three slots for three new hulls that are unique based on health, rather than hulls being "unique" based on overdrives in current Tanki. 

What's the plan with turret damages? Turret damages are based off of how much hp the hulls have. If I have a 500hp tank and a 2500hp tank, the 500hp tank is going to be easy to kill, while the 2500hp tank is going to be nearly unstoppable. It's why we have such a border in the first place, a balanced hp range. If we go beyond that, how are we going to determine how much damage the turrets will do? Does railgun deal less damage so that it can't 1 shot the 500hp hull? Or does it deal more damage so that it won't have a hard time with the 2500hp hull?

And at that point, it doesn't matter how fast a hull is going.

I think keeping it in between 1000-2000 is perfectly fine, could not be any better.

[Tanker-Arthur 2,971]

Just now, Emeraldcat345 said:

What's the plan with turret damages?

They stay the same. it should make everyone more resistant to damage from overdrives and drones and such if all forms of damage stayed the same as they are now. It's a way better defense-based buff then a fourth module that costs 5000 tankcoins to be honest.

 

Just now, Emeraldcat345 said:

If I have a 500hp tank and a 2500hp tank, the 500hp tank is going to be easy to kill, while the 2500hp tank is going to be nearly unstoppable.

Yeah, but I didn't suggest the gap would be that large. The gap I suggested is between 1000 HP and 2200 HP. It's nowhere as fragile as a 500 HP tank. (Mk1 stats by the way)

Just now, Emeraldcat345 said:

Does railgun deal less damage so that it can't 1 shot the 500hp hull? Or does it deal more damage so that it won't have a hard time with the 2500hp hull?

Lol again, I never suggested we should have a 500 HP hull or 2500 HP hull. 

The Mk1 2200 HP hull isn't that much higher in hitpoints. All it can really do is survive one extra shot from a Thunder/Striker. Just one hit. 

I believe a Railgun will still be able to 4-shot it, regardless of whether it has 2000 or 2200 health. it just changes a few interactions between a few turrets that make the hull with 2200 Health unique compared to the hull with 2000 health.

 

Also, in the post with the 2000 - 4400 HP, those are Mk8 values by the way.

I'm just basing my suggestion off of Denyes' original idea. I'm not changing the overall gap of the hulls he suggested to be as broad as 1000 to 5000 health at Mk8.

 

[EmeraldCat 562]

4 minutes ago, Tanker-Arthur said:

They stay the same. it should make everyone more resistant to damage from overdrives and drones and such if all forms of damage stayed the same as they are now. It's a way better defense-based buff then a fourth module that costs 5000 tankcoins to be honest.

It won't change anything with Overdrives. Even so, assuming a new a hull is added, what overpowered Overdrive will it receive? 

12 minutes ago, Tanker-Arthur said:

Yeah, but I didn't suggest the gap would be that large. The gap I suggested is between 1000 HP and 2200 HP. It's nowhere as fragile as a 500 HP tank. (Mk1 stats by the way)

Right, I never said you suggested that, I was giving off an example. Even if it was 1000-2200, there's still that off balance. Let's say that Hunter is at the center with 1.5k hp, Was to the left of the hulls with 1k hp, and Mammoth to the right of the hulls with 2.2k hp. Well, now, you can already see the problem. Heavy hulls have more hp on their side than the light hulls. Doesn't matter if you give Mammoth a speed that is equal to the hitpoints it gained.

16 minutes ago, Tanker-Arthur said:

Lol I never suggested we should have a 500 HP hull or 2500 HP hull. 

And like I said, I never said you said that you suggested that, it was an example of what going out of the hp border looks like.

 

18 minutes ago, Tanker-Arthur said:

The Mk1 2200 HP hull isn't that much higher in hitpoints. All it can really do is survive one extra shot from a Thunder/Striker. Just one hit. 

I believe a Railgun will still be able to 4-shot it, regardless of whether it has 2000 or 2200 health. it just changes a few interactions between a few turrets that make the hull with 2200 Health unique compared to the hull with 2000 health.

Right, 1 extra shot. That's actually something. So, while fast hulls get to survive, for example, 3 shots, from some anonymous turret, and heavy hulls get to survive 7 shots. Not to mention, if it's a game of offense vs defense, the heavy hulls get an advantage, because they don't exactly have to move from their base.

Also, it changes every turrets interactions, because it's not just about turret damage and hp. There's supplies involved, OD's involved, Modules are involved. It's kind of pointless to say this at the moment, but, what if Railgun did 400-800 damage? Is 2200 health still insignificant?

25 minutes ago, Tanker-Arthur said:

Also, in the post with the 2000 - 4400 HP, those are Mk8 values by the way.

I know the difference between 1k-2k and 2k-4k and their respected Modifications. Literally, there was no point in bringing this up, I can say 1k-2.2k to your 2k-4.4k and it wouldn't even matter because both are the same thing, just at different Modifications.

[Spy 14,913]

Status updated.

[Crossbone 516]

On 5/19/2021 at 4:21 AM, denyes11 said:

Lightweight	Super Lightweight	Middleweight	Heavyweight	Super Heavyweight
Hopper (1600 HP)	Hornet (2000 HP)	Viking (2800 HP)	Dictator (3200 HP)	Titan (3800 HP)
Wasp (1800 HP)	Crusader (2400 HP)	Hunter (3000 HP)	Ares (3600 HP)	Mammoth (4000 HP)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstanding the situation, but doesn't super lightweight weigh less than lightweight?