Let's Discuss Firebird!

[The-Operator219 1,929]

Anyone else not inflicting afterburn? I can't seem to burn things at all. 

[TheCongoSpider 8,968]

Anyone else not inflicting afterburn? I can't seem to burn things at all. 

I'm getting burned as usual.

[TheCongoSpider 8,968]

Does Firebird need a 6-second reload time? 

 

When you pair that reload time with Incendiary Mix, you are able to replenish 6 ticks worth of ammo which would result in 1,575 damage at M4. Letting it reload for two seconds is enough to replenish your energy to be able to take down an M4 medium hull. 

 

But that is just for the broken Incendiary Mix. i'm wondering if Stock Firebird needs it. I remember when the number was fixed at either 10 or 12, or both. I find it quite ridiculous that a Compact Tanks Firebird can finish off an enemy and have enough energy to take down another enemy by the time it gets there. 

 

What if Firebird had a 9-second reload? 

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

I encountered an incendiary mix user last night in a massacre battle. He was using wasp and chased me for about 35-40 metres while firing at me. I only had double armor against him, no protection module against him, and yet he only took out maybe 1/8 of my health.

[TheCongoSpider 8,968]

I encountered an incendiary mix user last night in a massacre battle. He was using wasp and chased me for about 35-40 metres while firing at me. I only had double armor against him, no protection module against him, and yet he only took out maybe 1/8 of my health.

What is that supposed to say? 

[XxStriker 519]

That high pressure pump is better if you cannot stick to the enemies? :P

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

What is that supposed to say?

 

Maybe it got nerfed?

[TheCongoSpider 8,968]

Maybe it got nerfed?

Well, this is one of the scenarios where Stock or Compact Tanks Firebird prevail over IM. Both have a weak damage of 10%. But what Stock and CT can do is ignite the target. So you're doing little direct damage but the afterburn id doing a lot of the work. Incendiary Mix doesn't have that and must stay within range, preferably the maximum damage range. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

Maybe it got nerfed?

Chased you but... heating you from how far away?

[NamesAreForNoobs 324]

I encountered an incendiary mix user last night in a massacre battle. He was using wasp and chased me for about 35-40 metres while firing at me. I only had double armor against him, no protection module against him, and yet he only took out maybe 1/8 of my health.

I just played a test battle, and did normal damage. Your experience is caused by the noob phenomenon, which can occur when someone is A) Using firebird on the bumpy map, B.) Using wasp on the bumpy map, C) Playing like they are compact tanks or D) A combination of being afflicted with impact force, Driving too fast for their own aim, And failing to get in optimum range.

 

That high pressure pump is better if you cannot stick to the enemies? :P

High pressure pump is even worse on Massacre.

 

Edit: A)  B)  C)  D) *Whoops*  

Edited August 2, 2019 by NamesAreForNoobs

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Chased you but... heating you from how far away?

Definitely less than 20 metres, maybe 10 or 12 metres.

[XxStriker 519]

I just played a test battle, and did normal damage. Your experience is caused by the noob phenomenon, which can occur when someone is A) Using firebird on the bumpy map, B.) Using wasp on the bumpy map, C) Playing like they are compact tanks or D) A combination of being afflicted with impact force, Driving too fast for their own aim, And failing to get in optimum range.

 

High pressure pump is even worse on Massacre.

 

Edit: A)  B)  C)  D) *Whoops*  

When I happen to be on massacre with my firebird account I usually switch to compact tanks and hunter, or the m2 striker I have there.

[Michael828 817]

WHY is Viking's overdrive extremely weak with this turret. I feel like I'm better off not using it at all in battles.

 

I often end up switching to a turret which works better with Viking's overdrive, like Railgun, because Firebird just doesn't deal enough damage.

[TheCongoSpider 8,968]

WHY is Viking's overdrive extremely weak with this turret. I feel like I'm better off not using it at all in battles.

 

I often end up switching to a turret which works better with Viking's overdrive, like Railgun, because Firebird just doesn't deal enough damage.

I have noticed this as well, and I think I know why. 

 

First off, its direct damage. Firebird has the weakest direct damage of the melee turrets. That is amplified by 3 with Viking's Overdrive.

 

M4 Direct damage per second:

 

Firebird: 2,100

 

Freeze: 2,700

 

Isida: 3,000

 

You can see that its direct damage is low compared to the other two, and every second, the gap increases.

 

Then you have its afterburn. Its afterburn is locked at 300/sec. So you're dealing at most 2,400 damage after the first second of shooting. Meanwhile, Freeze and Isida are doing much greater than you are, especially if the enemy is using double armour because the afterburn is then cut in half and is not affected by the double damage the Viking may have at the time. 

 

 

 

Something I noticed is that the heating rate of the Firebird changes with the Overdrive:

 

 

 

 

 

It seems as if the ignition effect is much weaker with the Overdrive. Even against Compact Tanks Firebirds, I get heated to maximum temperature faster when they are not using Viking's Overdrive. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by TheCongoSpider

[Michael828 817]

I have noticed this as well, and I think I know why. 

 

First off, its direct damage. Firebird has the weakest direct damage of the melee turrets. That is amplified by 3 with Viking's Overdrive.

 

M4 Direct damage per second:

 

Firebird: 2,100

 

Freeze: 2,700

 

Isida: 3,000

 

You can see that its direct damage is low compared to the other two, and every second, the gap increases.

 

Then you have its afterburn. Its afterburn is locked at 300/sec. So you're dealing at most 2,400 damage after the first second of shooting. Meanwhile, Freeze and Isida are doing much greater than you are, especially if the enemy is using double damage because the afterburn is then cut in half and is not affected by the double damage the Viking may have at the time. 

 

 

 

Something I noticed is that the heating rate of the Firebird changes with the Overdrive:

 

 

 

 

 

It seems as if the ignition effect is much weaker with the Overdrive. Even against Compact Tanks Firebirds, I get heated to maximum temperature faster when they are not using Viking's Overdrive. 

Thank you for the insight Congo.

 

It's pretty unfair that Firebird is just blatantly the weakest of the three. If the burning damage was doubled to 600 hp/sec we would see a comparable performance to that of Freeze and Isida. I remember you told me before that 300 hp/sec is a fixed value and cannot be changed, so I guess it could go with an increase in heating rate and maximum temperature. But I don't know how that'll work for an incendiary Firebird.

[TheCongoSpider 8,968]

Thank you for the insight Congo.

 

It's pretty unfair that Firebird is just blatantly the weakest of the three. If the burning damage was doubled to 600 hp/sec we would see a comparable performance to that of Freeze and Isida. I remember you told me before that 300 hp/sec is a fixed value and cannot be changed, so I guess it could go with an increase in heating rate and maximum temperature. But I don't know how that'll work for an incendiary Firebird.

You're welcome. And I noticed again that I made a mistake and said double damage when I meant double armour.  I'll change that. 

 

I want to believe that they also take into consideration the number of protection modules for the turret around as well as the number of users of the turret when balancing something in this age. Because Firebird is more common, it makes sense to have something less common be more powerful. 

 

I'd say they kept it the same since it has afterburn so it its range doesn't completely engulf the target, it could still do some damage even after the Overdrive is finished. 

 

The maximum temperature is set at 1 and the minimum temperature at -1. You can't change that apparently. With Viking's Overdrive, I expected a heating rate and cooling rate increase for Firebird and Freeze, because it made sense, but I guess making sense in this game would be bad for balance. 

[XxStriker 519]

That overdrive becomes especially deadly when used with incendiary mix or high pressure pump (I believe the max damage range increase counts for the increased range of the overdrive too... But I'm not too sure), but the mix between hunter and compact tanks is already a wonder because it removes one of the only 2 counters against the afterburn, these being a high % fox module and repair kit.

[ghost-guns 1,486]

I don't recommend incendiary mix... HUGE waste of crystals because it removes afterburn (compact tanks is far better...).

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Thank you for the insight Congo.

 

It's pretty unfair that Firebird is just blatantly the weakest of the three. If the burning damage was doubled to 600 hp/sec we would see a comparable performance to that of Freeze and Isida. I remember you told me before that 300 hp/sec is a fixed value and cannot be changed, so I guess it could go with an increase in heating rate and maximum temperature. But I don't know how that'll work for an incendiary Firebird.

300 hp/sec is already too much, 600 hp/sec would be way beyond overkill. Should be 200 hp/sec if anything.

 

 

I don't recommend incendiary mix... HUGE waste of crystals because it removes afterburn (compact tanks is far better...).

I've faced someone with m3 incendiary mix in industrial zone ctf last night, and Damn, my 9/20 Viking only lasted 2.5 seconds at most. It's ridiculously Overpowered like wolverine and Congo said it is.

[XxStriker 519]

I don't recommend incendiary mix... HUGE waste of crystals because it removes afterburn (compact tanks is far better...).

You lose a flat 300 damage per second... To gain literally double (Or quadruple if you previously used compact tanks) the fuel tank, and 350 damage that can be modified by drones and DD which grants a way bigger dps than compact tanks. But sure, it's terrible. :huh:

[Michael828 817]

I'm actually sure they won't do anything with the overdrive issue and keep it as is, so I'll just switch to Railgun/Ricochet whenever I use Viking, problem solved.

 

Also, Incendiary Firebird is more broken than car glass smashed with a sledgehammer.

[NamesAreForNoobs 324]

Incendiary Mix when supplies are on,

Compact Tanks when supplies are off.

[Michael828 817]

What about a High-pressure pump Firebird? It's pretty underrated to be honest. I've recently ditched Compact fuel tanks for this alteration.

 

The longer range is helpful, and the reduced energy consumption significantly boosts the total damage you get from a full energy tank. With it you can now kill enemies on the spot without having to hide somewhere waiting for the afterburn. The problem with relying on afterburn damage is that you're giving too much time for other players to come along and steal your kill. The burning tank could also just use a RK and put all your efforts to waste. Not a fun experience overall, and I know this from all the hours I've played with CFT.

 

Get this alt, it's cheap!

Edited August 12, 2019 by Michael828

[XxStriker 519]

What about a High-pressure pump Firebird? It's pretty underrated to be honest. I've recently ditched Compact fuel tanks for this alteration.

 

The longer range is helpful, and the reduced energy consumption significantly boosts the total damage you get from a full energy tank. With it you can now kill enemies on the spot without having to hide somewhere waiting for the afterburn. The problem with relying on afterburn damage is that you're giving too much time for other players to come along and steal your kill. The burning tank could also just use a RK and put all your efforts to waste. Not a fun experience overall, and I know this from all the hours I've played with CFT.

 

Get this alt, it's cheap!

A great alt choice for viking firebird at least, catching enemies at 20m with full damage is great. I tried it with hunter but I lose too many damage ticks because it's tall, vikings are almost unhittable with it.

 

And well, about the fuel, that's firebird's regular fuel :P I've been saying compact tanks is frustrating to use, everyone just kills you and heals off.

[NamesAreForNoobs 324]

What about a High-pressure pump Firebird? It's pretty underrated to be honest. I've recently ditched Compact fuel tanks for this alteration.

 

The longer range is helpful, and the reduced energy consumption significantly boosts the total damage you get from a full energy tank. With it you can now kill enemies on the spot without having to hide somewhere waiting for the afterburn. The problem with relying on afterburn damage is that you're giving too much time for other players to come along and steal your kill. The burning tank could also just use a RK and put all your efforts to waste. Not a fun experience overall, and I know this from all the hours I've played with CFT.

 

Get this alt, it's cheap!

I actually agree that high pressure pump is a great alteration and entirely prefer it to stock firebird. But while I like it myself, I don't directly recommend it to people I don't know, and this is for three reasons.

 

1) If I don't know the person, I can't tell if they will be able to aim with the reduced cone angle, and they might do badly with it, either because they are bad, or play on a weaker computer or on mobile.

2) It doesn't have as obvious an effect as the other alterations when you're hitting someone right infront of you, in the form of standout damage counters or bright red enemies, which causes some people to wrongly consider it a waste.

3) Even though it's cheap for us, it's expensive for casual players at its unlock rank, and I don't care to be responsible for their investment, or the potential criticism when it doesn't help.

 

None of these reasons are actual weaknesses in a battle, but are still important. Compact Fuel Tanks isn't better than High Pressure Pump with supplies enabled, I think it's worse. But it's still more popular.

 

If that was too long, TLDR: I usually recommend the more popular alterations, stronger or not. Statistically higher chance of working for casual players.

 

And props for using high pressure pump.