Many opinions brought up, many of them well predictable beforehand. I just can't get it how some of you can understate clear abuse. I never suggested anyone obeying the rules should be banned, so if an automatic instant ban for 5 minutes is so tough a punishment you say, why couldn't they then just do as the rules tell and avoid that ban? Wouldn't it be very simple? Instead you say that the players being abused should do things like stop using chat, ignore people etc. That is so sick in my opinion. My proposal was based on the game rules that already exist and manners so it is very hard for me to understand how anyone can even try to question it and be serious at the same time. What does it tell about respect and the value of the game rules? Anyway, my initial letter was primarily addressed to the Tanki staff and I would appreciate to hear their opinion on this. So is abuse prohibited or are the game rules just a decoration?

Now you must be kidding. There are rules in the world that must be obeyed. There are rules also in Tanki that I listed above. Your reaction to the rules seems to be exactly the one I don't want my children to learn. She knows how to come along with people but abuse is different. Abuse is exactly the correct word here but we can talk about bullying as well if you prefer that. And by the way, freedom of speech specifically excludes the right to abuse or bully anyone. Is there a command to ignore individual players? Anyway, there are still a few flaws in that approach: 1. You cannot know beforehand who is going to abuse you. Yelling at supply users is so common that it is simply impractical to give some 'ignore' commands in every battle. And disabling chat is not an option either as you still want to chat with your friends. 2. It is morally the wrong way. The person who is doing wrong and breaking the rules is the abuser, not the one being abused. It is absurd to make the abused responsible on taking actions. That responsibility would ruin the game experience of the abused anyway, and the abusing will bother also other players not particularly targeted that time. 3. If nothing is done to this problem, it gives a signal that abuse is acceptable. Is that the signal Tanki wants to give?

I am not kidding. I am having a hard time explaining my 9-year-old daughter why she is not allowed to abuse others and gets a punishment if she does so, but she can be abused by others in Tanki chats without consequences.

Thank you for sharing that with us. I am surprised and disappointed at how Tanki staff has responded to your complaint. I would fully stand for an automatic instant 5 minutes ban for everyone who mentions 'drug' in the game chat. I do not see any valid (or even legal) reason to talk about drugs in an online game chat. It would also lower the workload of the mods as there would no longer be a need to report that. Regarding 'noob' I would like to point out that for example '*****' gets replaced by asterisks, so why on earth does 'noob' not? Edit: apparently it got replaced by asterisks also here, but it was a commonly used term of abuse starting with 'i'.

Getting back to my point: I kindly ask that the game chat moderators start asap to ban players who complain about other players' supply usage in the game chats. As a first step words like 'noob', 'drug' and 'drugger' should be censored in the same way as the f word and the like are censored now. This list of reasons is far from complete: 1. Using supplies is completely in line with the game rules and is allowed. Actions like – insults, threats, slander; – obscene language, including in the implied form; – flooding, flaming, spam, printing in capital letters (CAPS LOCK); is clearly prohibited in the rules (even that is not a complete list, I just copied a few in the very beginning of them). I respectfully ask that Tanki moderators start carrying out these rules. 2. It has been generally agreed for example in this forum discussion that most of the Tanki players are children. Many of them do not speak English as their first language. Therefore they cannot even defend themselves (not that they would want to start arguing with other players in the first place) but they can still see when their own nickname is put in the chat in the same exclamation with the words mentioned above. It's clear that it ruins their game experience, just like it ruins the game experience of every other player who plays according to the game rules. For the same reason (English) they cannot bring up their wishes in this forum or answer polls or surveys Tanki organizes. I kindly ask the Tanki stuff to understand that in this post I represent this very large group of Tanki players. 3. It is plain common sense that people should treat each other respectfully. Especially children should be taught to do so, so that they can then do it as grownups. Players are banned for many other reasons and bad behavior in the chat and elsewhere, so it is just plain natural that also this thing is added among those things, too. Thank you for reading this. Respectfully, illi2104

Definitely. I think it has been said long time ago that I also bought supply kits.

If I remember correctly the cost of the kit was 105k crystals. I think I bought it three or so times, which makes 315k (average price of a hull+turret+paint combo I guess). I'm absolutely confident that people buying MUs instead waste at least that number of crystals as MUs are incredibly expensive.

I have to disagree with that. Any individual's doings have nothing to do with the general discussion on the game. It might have been different if complete statistics on _every_ player had been brought up as a mass. The more fundamental flaw here was however that the statistics were brought up in the purpose of trying to prove that something the individual says is wrong because of those statistics.

Ok, here are some numbers for you: 6375 repair kits means that at maximum the player in question can have bought 5 times a supply kit that contains 1200 repair kits (and 1200 pieces of each other supply type). I don't think 5 is a lot, but you have the right for your own opinion. Considering that during the years the player has been playing this game he has received a lot of repair kits also by other means, it is very unlikely that he has bought even 5 pieces of those supply kits. Was this the kind of thing you wanted to hear? I was just wondering where that Pokemon so suddenly popped up from as nobody had mentioned it earlier. In my ears it sounded like 'refuting an argument that was not advanced by any opponent'.

True, that word existed in one of my earlier posts. I asked a question as I started to feel that certain people were abnormally interested in my personal matters. I don't think asking a question is the same as calling names, but I still apologize if my question hurt somebody's feelings. Also that latter claim is not exactly correct in my opinion. I remember saying that I don't think I am a heavy supply user (or something like that). So I was telling an opinion. I know that some people's opinions on that matter differ from mine and that is fine. But do we agree that my personal statistics (or anyone's personal opinions on my personal statistics) are not really relevant in this discussion that concerns supplies in the game?

Yes, I understand that we are playing the same game and it seems to be an issue only to those who do not want to use supplies although they have plenty. As a solution I have suggested that they ask the devs to implement separate battles for them.

inthehouse81 did not say anything about Pokemon, but you did (if you would like to learn more about argumentation errors, you can google also 'straw man'). Anyway, there is always a way to treat people respectfully. Calling names like noob and drugger is not that.

Do you know inthehouse81 in person? Or are you just trying to guess this personal property of his? Anyway, I was merely referring to this: Both age and K/D are players' properties that as themselves do not tell anything about whether the arguments stated by the players are correct or not. Therefore talking about them is completely irrelevant in the point of view of the matter being discussed and so I consider them as attacking. Remember what I said about ad hominem earlier? You refer to people's personal properties in the plain purpose of trying to prove that what they say is wrong while those properties are in no way related to that, or offending them as in the latter example.

Could we concentrate on discussing the matter instead of attacking the person of other conversationalists, please? I think it is really good that TO does not have adverts. They ruin many games and in some cases make them totally unusable.

I honestly don't know. Probably I would a few times in the beginning, and if I then felt that it is not okay for me, I would come up with improvement ideas and ask the devs to implement them, and also ask other people who feel in the same way as I do to do the same in order to increase the probability that the ideas get truly noted. Also, as weird as it may sound to you, I have also played periods without using any supplies, so maybe I would revert back to doing that. I would also have the option to leave Tanki. In each and every case I would not complain about the matter in the battle chats or blame other players for playing according to the rules. By stubbornly keeping asking me this question you make me afraid that you miss my point: I would never ever complain about the situation to the other players who do play according to the current game rules or even like the rules, or blame them about the state of matters. The only direction I would communicate (if I communicated in the first place) would be towards the game makers.

You and Gabe seem to be strangely interested in my personal matters. Are you paedophiles or something? :D No, I would just like to point out that anyone's personal matters or properties do not tell anything about the correctness of their arguments. Claiming that they do is an argumentation error called ad hominem. If you still want to discuss my statistics, I can briefly answer to that although it is off-topic in this forum. You seem to be forgetting a few things: there used to be supply kits that contained 1200 pieces of every type of supply. Now they have been removed from the garage which I did not like at all. Anyway, I don't think I ever denied that I have bought them a few times. But buying them with crystals earned from missions and battles is still different kind of buying than buying crystals with real money. As my rank is higher than yours I have also had the time to earn more crystals than you have, also at higher rank battles you get more crystals than in lower rank battles. The statistics do not tell how much crystals you waste for MUs, or at least you did not mention them at all. I have not wasted almost any crystals for them. If you hadn't either, then you'd have had more to spend for supplies.

Wolverine, would you be so kind and stop twisting what I say. Please read my messages again until you really understand what I say in them, ok? I would not like to repeat myself as I think I have already addressed your questions. Maybe my answers just weren't the ones you would have wanted?

Well, I did not say exactly that, but that's fine. I still believe that it is an extremely rare situation where everyone on your opposite team is a buyer and noone in your own team is one. Everyone gets a fair number of supplies without using any real money (except that I don't know how that will go in the future as the best supply kits have now been removed from the game). After all, you always have a possibility to select another battle. But please, please do the selection silently without yelling anything to anyone in the chat first. Yes, pro battles are not very many. Does that indicate that after all there are not so many players who definitely insist to play without supplies? Whatever the case, I already suggested that there should perhaps be own battles for those who definitely refuse to use their well earned supplies. If only you used all that energy to ask the developers to offer you such battles instead of whining to those who play the game in the way it is currently meant to be played. Ps. If the game rules were changed so that supply users should battle in pro battles, at least I would not whine to them who play according to the rules. I would play according to the rules also then and remember that if I don't like the rules I will always have the last resort not to play.

Sorry but I do not understand any of what you mean. Could you elaborate a bit, please.

1. I apologize if I have misinterpreted your message. 2. I agree that comparing the effects of MUs and supplies is irrelevant, actually I also mentioned that in an earlier post of mine. Maybe MUs are not complained as much as supplies as they are not visible in the same way in the game. After all I still find it very unfair that one way of improving your tank is generally accepted while another one is not even though both ways are equally valid according to the game rules. 3. No, I don't forget that. Actually you can quite often find me reminding people of not swearing etc. in chats because there may be children present. I very often play Tanki with my daughter. However, there is a reason for the chats having moderators and also the kids should learn to chat respectfully. A common consequence for not chatting appropriately is banning and I am suggesting and would be very happy to see that consequence being applied also to players blaming other players for playing according to the game rules. I would not call at least my usage of supplies "spamming of number keys", but that is a minor point. More important is that it should not ruin anyone's game experience if other players are doing what is fully acceptable in the game. Instead of starting to whine about it, they should remember that they have an equal chance to do the same. If they choose not to, it is their own choice which does not give a right to complain. I understand that there are many players who want to play without supplies and I have also understood that it is already possible in pro battles (I haven't ever used a pro pass so I don't know for sure). So, in my opinion they should go and play there and not whine in the regular battles. If that is not enough them, then they should ask the developers to develop some more battle options, or whatever they want and think is necessary. I'm only asking that players who want to use supplies could safely and in piece without any kind of nagging play this game the way they want.

So ad hominem was finally your best shot? :D I doubt your values are incorrect but that is not really significant. It is just so sad if that kind of reasoning has made the style of playing go away that I and many more valued the most.

Yeah, I disagree, too, but I comment only on this one: it is not true that you don't have enough drugs without using real money. Buying supplies (using crystals earned from battles, missions etc.) in large kits gives them in addition to those you get directly from missions. At least for me that has been enough. However, now the developers seem to have removed those large supply kits, which I think has been a huge mistake (in fact this discussion started - at least as far as I have been concerned - when I asked why those large supply kits had disappeared). A completely different matter is the usage of real money (I still don't understand why it is always taken into supply discussions) but (only as a sidenote) even that is fair and even to everyone, as everyone has the same chance to decide whether to use real money on this game or not. Equally well somebody could use real money to finally get MUs with the bought crystals, so should that lead - or would it be fun if it led - to people whining and yelling at MU users?

Gabe, it is totally irrelevant to compare the effects of microupgrades and supplies, my point is in no way related to that. (If you still like to compare them, remember that microupgrades are a permanent change while supplies only last a few tens of seconds, you said it yourself). My point is that everyone should have a freedom to select their own style of playing and have the right to play in their own chosen style without having to listen to that everlasting whining, yelling and complaining about their style of playing. Be it (the style) supplies, microupgrades, certain turrets or hulls, whatever, let the players choose their playing style and stop yelling in chats. ok? Every player has the exact same chance of getting supplies as everyone else, so there is nothing unfair related to that. The only thing there is is that some players are just so stupid that they don't want to use them even though they are given to them for free. Instead they only want to yell and whine. That's really silly and makes playing not so funny anymore, that's what I have meant when I have talked about dropping of other players' feelings. Players that refuse to use supplies have claimed in game chats for example that it is more skillful to not use drugs. That is absurd. Players who use drugs need to master 5 more keys than players who don't. I find it a very desirable skill to, for example, hit 2 just before a rail or shaft hits you or 1 at the exact optimal moment when you are taking the enemy flag. Claiming that someone becomes more skillful without utilizing some very useful game feature is as intelligent a claim as saying that I become more skillful if I play with my eyes closed. How stupid do you have to be to value that kind of skills not required by the game? Another claim is related to usage of real money. I think that's quite absurd a claim as well. I don't know if there are any statistics on what players use their crystals on most when they have bought crystals with real money, but what difference would it make anyway? Personally I don't use real money for this game but who am I to blame anyone who does? I am supposed to be thankful to everyone who supports the developers by using real money on this, as that is the thing that makes it possible for us others to play this for free. It's just plain natural that nobody would develop this kind of a game for free, also claiming that someone should do something like that is just plain absurd. I also find it quite selfish and cocky that some people take the right to state their own rules that the game does not have (like 'drugging is not allowed' or 'killing is not allowed when gold box is dropping' etc.) I'm wondering what makes people think they are above others like that.

No, I did not say that anybody should be banned for not liking druggers. I said that players who drop other players' feelings by keeping constantly yelling in every battles' chats about players who use drugs should be banned. There is a clear difference, and I think it is you who is narrow-minded here as you suggest players who _use_ drugs should be banned. Have you ever seen people yelling about usage of micro-upgrades, having a certain rank or something like that? I didn't think so, only supply users are always being yelled at like that although supplies are just a similar game feature/property as any one of those I listed. That was my point, got it? I would never even suggest banning players who use micro-upgrades, for example.

Where have all the big supply kits disappeared? I only see the 100 kit in my garage. Please bring the big kits (1000, 1100 and 1200) back. In the beginning of this thread it was asked what people think about these drugs, so I can share also my opinion: I think they are great. The only bad thing with them is that in every battle there seems to be someone who complains about druggers. That really sucks and drops the feeling, I think such players should be instantly banned. I understand some people invest in micro upgrades, and that's fine, it's just a style of playing. My opinion on them is that they are far too expensive and they upgrade the hull/turret/paint far too little in order to be useful, therefore I prefer supplies. I think both styles of playing are valid and we should respect both styles. Thank you.