Let's Discuss Thunder!

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

19 minutes ago, enri_chill said:

So by my calculations, you have to be within 0-16 m  for max damage...anything further is minimum (or 371.25 with Sledgehammer).

No. 
 

Turrets with damage falloff have maximum and minimum damage ranges. Within between point blank and the stated maximum damage range, you will be dealing 100% of your damage. After you pass the maximum damage range, your damage starts falling off linearly until you reach the minimum dmaage range and its stated weak damage %. For mid range turrets, that is 80m of maximum damage range and 120m of minimum damage range at max with a weak damage % of 25%. That means between 80m and 120m, your damage will drop linearly towards 25% at 120m. 

 

Sledgehammer only decreases the MAXIMUM damage range by 80%. So yes, you are correct that 0-16m is where you will be dealing 100% of your damage, but, because the maximum damage range has been shifted so far upward, your damage fall-off will begin earlier, but will be slower. Your damage will be falling off from 100% to 25% across 104m. This is esentially what the previous Sledgehammer was doing. SCCM directly reduced your damage per shot by reducing your base damage. Sledgehammer indiretly reduced your damage per shot by making your shot's damage fall-off range happen earlier. You'd be dealing Stock Thunder damage at melee range but less than 100% after that.

 

The current Sledgehammer still does this, but with the benefit that it significantly increases the normal damage in exchange for critical hits and reload buff being removed. That high damage is falling off slowly, so you still have a sizeable range to deal relatively high damage. At max, a Sledgehammer will be dealing 750 damage (the main damage barrier of Thunder) at 84m, That's slightly more than the range at which Stock Thunder will be dealing 100% of its damage (990). 

 

Booster and Crisis help to increase that range. Booster increasing that specific range from 84m to 93m and Crisis increasing it from 84m to 101m. 

 

Here is a video showcasing its potential with the Booster drone. 

 

 

[enri_chill 135]

1 hour ago, TheCongoSpider said:

No. 
 

Turrets with damage falloff have maximum and minimum damage ranges. Within between point blank and the stated maximum damage range, you will be dealing 100% of your damage. After you pass the maximum damage range, your damage starts falling off linearly until you reach the minimum dmaage range and its stated weak damage %. For mid range turrets, that is 80m of maximum damage range and 120m of minimum damage range at max with a weak damage % of 25%. That means between 80m and 120m, your damage will drop linearly towards 25% at 120m. 

 

Sledgehammer only decreases the MAXIMUM damage range by 80%. So yes, you are correct that 0-16m is where you will be dealing 100% of your damage, but, because the maximum damage range has been shifted so far upward, your damage fall-off will begin earlier, but will be slower. Your damage will be falling off from 100% to 25% across 104m. This is esentially what the previous Sledgehammer was doing. SCCM directly reduced your damage per shot by reducing your base damage. Sledgehammer indiretly reduced your damage per shot by making your shot's damage fall-off range happen earlier. You'd be dealing Stock Thunder damage at melee range but less than 100% after that.

 

The current Sledgehammer still does this, but with the benefit that it significantly increases the normal damage in exchange for critical hits and reload buff being removed. That high damage is falling off slowly, so you still have a sizeable range to deal relatively high damage. At max, a Sledgehammer will be dealing 750 damage (the main damage barrier of Thunder) at 84m, That's slightly more than the range at which Stock Thunder will be dealing 100% of its damage (990). 

 

Booster and Crisis help to increase that range. Booster increasing that specific range from 84m to 93m and Crisis increasing it from 84m to 101m. 

 

Here is a video showcasing its potential with the Booster drone. 

 

 

Great video. Certainly impressive. I wonder why there were next to no protections for thunder? I've been facing more it seems. I guess when it got buffed a bit more people are suiting up with it. 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

27 minutes ago, enri_chill said:

Great video. Certainly impressive. I wonder why there were next to no protections for thunder? I've been facing more it seems. I guess when it got buffed a bit more people are suiting up with it. 

That was recorded before the second 50% discount weekend. The first weekend had troubles for players entering the game so that might explain it. For sure Shaft and Thunder protection usage went up after the sales. 

[Abellia 504]

35 minutes ago, enri_chill said:

Great video. Certainly impressive. I wonder why there were next to no protections for thunder? I've been facing more it seems. I guess when it got buffed a bit more people are suiting up with it. 

"A bit"
Yeah see there weren't protections for it up until the beginning of may, then there were a few. After the most recent ginormous buff to it, there are now a lot of protections.

It went from 810 dmg to 990, the reload went down, and Sledgehammer went from a 33% damage boost decreasing with range to a +50% damage boost decreasing with range, so...it got buffed "a bit."

Edited June 8, 2022 by Abellia

[enri_chill 135]

3 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

That was recorded before the second 50% discount weekend. The first weekend had troubles for players entering the game so that might explain it. For sure Shaft and Thunder protection usage went up after the sales. 

Just split a battle between the sledgehammer and small caliber on a medium board and you are right. I was about 1.5 k/d on the scc and 2.4 on sledge. I don't have a fully maxed booster drone, so I was using defender.  If I did use the booster, you could definitely see how it could dominate. 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

Just now, enri_chill said:

Just split a battle between the sledgehammer and small caliber on a medium board and you are right. I was about 1.5 k/d on the scc and 2.4 on sledge. I don't have a fully maxed booster drone, so I was using defender.  If I did use the booster, you could definitely see how it could dominate. 

Both work great because Thunder's damage is very close to a barrier, though it being close to a barrier is what makes it dominate with Booster. Try out Adrenaline with your Defender. You'll be able to start one-shotting light hulls at 96% HP and live longer as a bonus. 

[enri_chill 135]

Is the pulsar augment worth having? Just saw it on a thunder.

 

[enri_chill 135]

21 minutes ago, Abellia said:

"A bit"
Yeah see there weren't protections for it up until the beginning of may, then there were a few. After the most recent ginormous buff to it, there are now a lot of protections.

It went from 810 dmg to 990, the reload went down, and Sledgehammer went from a 33% damage boost decreasing with range to a +50% damage boost decreasing with range, so...it got buffed "a bit."

I prefer not to overstate stuff since everyone's perspectives are...well...subject to their value systems and opinions. So yes, "a bit" was understated. 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

33 minutes ago, enri_chill said:

Is the pulsar augment worth having? Just saw it on a thunder.

It's...reasonable, when you compare it to what Sledgehammer, SCCM and Adrenaline can do on their own. You get to weaken an enemy with a critical hit then follow up with a normal shot. It's reasonable because this critical damage is very weak and comes ~2x less often than it does for the other Thunders since all of relevant your critical chance paramaters are halved:

 

Max chance: 30 -> 15

Initial chance: 30 -> 15

Chance step: 5 -> 2.5

 

So, with Thunder currently, you have some variety as it stands. Slightly faster reload with fast projectile speed and higher impact force with no splash with Subcalibre, spammable, lower damage shots with retained high critical damage with SCCM, being able to have 1,000 base normal damage when not at full HP with Adrenaline, short range high burst with Sledgehammer, and intermittent weakening of an enemy with Pulsar. 

 

Is it worth buying? If you're looking to dominate, no it is not buying.

[stat.padder 225]

I bought thunder on my main. I have it at mk7-10. It kind of feels like smoky, especially subcaliber rounds, which I have used mostly. I do not have adrenaline and sledgehammer  unfortunately so for me the best one was stock, second were SCCM and subcaliber because they were situational (sometimes I was glad I that I could use splash dmg of SCCM, but subcaliber's high dmg, velocity and impact force saved me in other situations).

 

Thunder does on average 1 critical in 6.45 shots. That means e.g. 2 criticals and 11 regular (13 overall). That is helpful for dps.

Note: in reality criticals occur even more often, probably because of 30% initial crit chance after spawning.

 

Stock/adrenaline (cca +6%) has 475.4 DPS ; adrenaline 503.9 DPS

- against thunder protection module it's 285.0 DPS

Subcaliber has 528.2 DPS

- against module it's 316.7 DPS

SCCM has 451.4 DPS

- against module 284.8 DPS

I find SCCM a little bit underwhelming even after using it with dictator which should have been a good combo.

I play a lot with splash smoky on my main account, but thunder after I upgrade it and buy adrenaline will probably replace it. I really like that it can splash dmg even during criticals, splash dmg in general is higher with more range , more dmg per shot is always better because I can hide with thunder longer than smoky therefore less exposing myself. Also dps of adrenaline thunder and splash smoky is not that much different 563.1 vs 503.9, on average it will be 10.5 % lower. I might even buy thunder on this (second) acc and break away from only stat padding the smoky.

Edited June 11, 2022 by stat.padder

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

19 minutes ago, stat.padder said:

I find SCCM a little bit underwhelming even after using it with dictator which should have been a good combo.

I don't really use DPS (even though it can be a convenient indicator) with turrets like Thunder. Rather I look at their damage per shot. SCCM received a big nerf on Friday that once again, pushed its maximum base damage below 667, meaning it once again needs 4 shots to kill a light hull on equal footing. That's a significant nerf and it's no longer enjoyable for me. 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 6/8/2022 at 4:05 PM, enri_chill said:

Just split a battle between the sledgehammer and small caliber on a medium board and you are right. I was about 1.5 k/d on the scc and 2.4 on sledge. I don't have a fully maxed booster drone, so I was using defender.  If I did use the booster, you could definitely see how it could dominate. 

Have you tried the new Small Calibre Charging Machine? What do you think about it now? 

[thunderhunter123 741]

When using Sledgehammer, the range of Max Damage becomes from 80 to 4 meters!

https://prnt.sc/LkeltGhKwnM8

This means that we need to get really close, to every tank, in order to be able to do high damage.

When I attack from like 50 meters away, it does only 80 damage or so!

Quite some players use Booster Drone in battles when playing with Thunder in order to help increase in some damage at a range.

 

Do you feel like Thunder has become somewhat of a Melee Turret? Should we improve the "Range of max damage (m)" Parameter for it?

As a Medium-ranged Turret, it feels kind of weak with Sledgehammer.

 

You can balance the Turret by lowering the damage a little but changing the range of max damage.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

38 minutes ago, thunderhunter123 said:

When using Sledgehammer, the range of Max Damage becomes from 80 to 4 meters!

https://prnt.sc/LkeltGhKwnM8

This means that we need to get really close, to every tank, in order to be able to do high damage.

When I attack from like 50 meters away, it does only 80 damage or so!

Quite some players use Booster Drone in battles when playing with Thunder in order to help increase in some damage at a range.

 

Do you feel like Thunder has become somewhat of a Melee Turret? Should we improve the "Range of max damage (m)" Parameter for it?

As a Medium-ranged Turret, it feels kind of weak with Sledgehammer.

 

You can balance the Turret by lowering the damage a little but changing the range of max damage.

EN Wiki is outdated. Use the DE Wiki. Sledgehammer's current downsides are:

 

• Maximum damage range: -80%
• Minimum damage range: -50%
• Projectile speed: -50%
• Critical hits removed

 

38 minutes ago, thunderhunter123 said:

When I attack from like 50 meters away, it does only 80 damage or so!

You're dealing low damage from "50 metres away" because its furthest range of minimum damage is now 60m. 

 

38 minutes ago, thunderhunter123 said:

Do you feel like Thunder has become somewhat of a Melee Turret? Should we improve the "Range of max damage (m)" Parameter for it?

As a Medium-ranged Turret, it feels kind of weak with Sledgehammer.

The entirety of Thunder does not hinge on Sledgehammer Rounds. It is 1 of 3 unique augments available for the turret. Has Sledgehammer become a short-range piece of equipment? Yes, that was the intention behind the nerf. And yes, they did overdo the nerf. With Sledgehammer you have a few directions to push it.

You can go for the binary damage approach of "equalising" the maximum and minimum damage ranges so that you will deal 100% of total damage farther out, but there is a hard line where you immediately drop to 25% of total damage. 

You can justify the decreased range and projectile speed by increasing the firing rate, but that leans too far into SCCM.

You can lessen the severity of the minimum damage range penalty which will give it a damage buff in all ranges. 

You can increase the weak damage from 25% to 50% which will give it a damage buff between 16m and 60m.

You can increase the normal damage boost of the augment to make it more deadly for melee-close range combat. 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheCongoSpider

[Potdindy 866]

Seems weird to have thunder with a short range augment since its always functioned as a mid/long range turret. 

[Me0w_XP 523]

On 7/6/2022 at 3:23 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

The entirety of Thunder does not hinge on Sledgehammer Rounds. It is 1 of 3 unique augments available for the turret. Has Sledgehammer become a short-range piece of equipment? Yes, that was the intention behind the nerf. And yes, they did overdo the nerf. With Sledgehammer you have a few directions to push it.

 

Hey, I'm checking out the patch notes but I'm a little confused. Sorry if I'm bothering you.

After Thunder's buff, at what point was Sledgehammer Rounds OP and at what point did it get killed by the devs?

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:47 PM, Me0w_XP said:

Sorry if I'm bothering you.

You're not. 

On 7/28/2022 at 9:47 PM, Me0w_XP said:

Hey, I'm checking out the patch notes but I'm a little confused. Sorry if I'm bothering you.

After Thunder's buff, at what point was Sledgehammer Rounds OP and at what point did it get killed by the devs?

The parameters for its garage augments were put in place beforehand, in the Patch of April 22nd. In that Patch, Stock Thunder's normal damage reached a new low, below 750 damage. This hurt all of its augments, but the bright side being Thunder's performance with the Booster and Crisis drones were better than those without, it gained a higher maximum and initial critical chance. Before that patch, its impact force at Mk7+ was increased to 600. That period of low damage per shot of Stock lasted an unfortunate month, then came its comeuppance.

 

You've seen that Thunder gained buffs in areas that did not matter on their own in the big picture. The main changeable parameters that mattered were the damage and the firing rate to go alongside that damage. In comes the Patch of 27th May to start Tanki's birthday celebrations. Its firing rate was changed to something overall better than before, its normal damage per shot being increased all the way near the 1,000 damage barrier, at 990. Its critical damage being increased to 1,020 which allows it to synergise with the 990 normal damage to kill light hulls on equal footing with critical + normal hit. Thunder, overnight, became overpowered. It got buffs in areas that it did not urgently need, and then had a huge damage buff to complement the other buffed characteristics. You then had a turret that was overtuned. High normal damage edging on the most lethal damage barrier in the game, a high-critical-chance and synergistic critical damage, high impact force, mechanically easy to use. 

 

As I mentioned in the start, its augments' parameters were set in place a month before this change. SCCM with a -25% decrease on damage and reload time. Subcalibre Rounds with a doubled projectile speed instead of x1.5. Sledgehammer with a +50% increase to the normal damage and an increased distance of maximum damage. What happened in this Patch:


Adrenaline - Very easily crossed 2,000 normal damage per shot at 93% HP, allowing it to one-shot light hulls with a faster firing rate than it had before (2.2 vs the current 2.0). The splash damage % being 50% also allowed you to potentially decrease the number of splash hits needed to kill targets by at least 1. 

Subcalibre Rounds - Just Stock with increased firing rate and effectiveness in 1 v 1s. Booster allowed you to one-shot unprotected light hulls with the normal damage.  

 

Small Calibre Charging Machine - Sat just under 750 normal damage per shot, at 742.5, with a firing rate of one shot every 1.5 seconds. An augment made for spamming shots and it was the one time this augment has ever dealt decent damage in its lifetime. Booster allowed you to cross 1,500 damage per shot, which allowed you to 2-shot unprotected medium hulls. Since it fell short of 750 base damage, Booster could not get it all the way to synergising critical and normal hits to reach 4,000 damage combined but came very close and unmaxed light/heavy hulls would feel the pain. Crisis allowed it to reach 1,930 normal damage per shot, almost one-shotting unprotected light hulls. 

 

Sledgehammer Rounds - The big buff to Stock happened primarily in the normal damage, which is what benefits Sledgehammer. Its maximum normal damage per shot was increased from 1,065 to 1,485, again, nearing a damage barrier this time being 1,500 base damage. Its maximum damage range was extended to 16m at Mk7+ which allows it to have a more generous range of 750+ damage (crucial for a turret like Thunder). I have the ranges at which it dealt certain damages in the Booster, Crisis and Camper interaction change topics. In any case, you had a fairly long range to deal destructive damage. Booster allowed you to cross 3,000 damage per shot and then some (since it was so close to the barrier) and extended the range of destructiveness. Crisis having a higher boost naturally increased this destructive range further. 

 

In the end, you had a very powerful all-round turret. Easy to use, has splash damage, high damage per shot with a fitting firing rate, and augments that all came with different playstyles and parameter changes to utilise Thunder's newfound damage in their own scenarios. Thunder was a force to be reckoned with, until...

Quote

Thunder

• Standard damage decreased from 495-990 to 450-900

• Critical damage increased from 510-1020 to 615-1230

• Augment «Small caliber charging machine»

  • The decrease in Standard damage changed from -25% to -30%

  • The decrease in Reload time changed from -25% to -20%

• Augment «”Sledgehammer” rounds»

  • The increase in Standard damage changed from +50% to +45%

  • Added a decrease in Range of min damage by -50%

• Booster

  • Bonus damage decreased from 15-30% to 10-20%

  • (Note) Booster bonus damage reduction is in line with the current base damage increases for almost all turrets, where Booster plays a key role in increasing efficiency.

Two weeks later in the patch of 10th June, we receive a global balance update that affected half of the turrets, Thunder included, and a nerf to the Booster drone. As seen here, both Stock and individual augments are being nerfed, which will be a double whammy instead of a single toning down of Stock parameters which is what really brought the mess in the first place. This is how it affected Thunder:

 

Stock/Adrenaline - Its high normal damage was reduced and converted to higher critical damage that can be synergistic. It is no longer near a damage barrier so cannot easily obtain 2,000 damage per shot. It now needs to be at 32% HP to get it. Booster being reduced to 20 additional units of damage enhancement coupled with the normal damage being lowered to 900 no longer allowed it to cross 2,000. It would need Adrenaline at 93% HP to do this. 

 

Subcalibre Rounds - Nothing much since this augment mostly follows whatever damage Stock does and slightly enhances it in 1 v 1s. Booster no longer pushed it above 2,000 normal damage. 

 

Small Calibre Charging Machine - After 2 weeks of being a decent option amongst its siblings, it is back to being relatively bad. For context, the point of this augment was always to alter Thunder's damage output to take longer to kill medium hulls but shorten the time to killed light and heavy hulls. They way it achieved this was having above 667 base damage. This allows you to 3-shot light hulls on equal footing, which lets you 3-shot unprotected heavy hulls with DD. The nerf to Stock's normal damage pushed it away from the 750 damage barrier down to 675 damage. However, the damage penalty of the augment itself was also increased from -25% to -30%. It was barely hanging on to its purpose, which then gets trashed by the augment nerf and pushes it to 630, below 667. It now needs 4 shots to kill a light hull on equal footing. Along with its major damage reduction, its firing rate was also reduced and it cannot synergise with the critical hits to compensate for the lower normal damage. It is now statisitcally weaker than it should be. But not as weak as...

 

Sledgehammer Rounds - Immediate note. The Patch Note stated that its minimum damage range was reduced by 50%, but in reality, it was reduced by 80%, the same as its maximum damage range. Not only did it get a damage decrease from Stock's nerf, it also went down with the individual augment nerf and pushed its final maximum damage below 1,334, which is the double of the 667 damage barrier necessary to 3-shot unprotected heavy hulls. It now has less damage per shot, and it drops of VEEEEEERY quick. And by quick, I mean from 0-16m (melee range) you deal 100% damage, and from 16-24m, your damage drops from 100% to 25%. You heard that right. You start to deal weak damage after 24m. If a Firebird or Freeze cannot hit you, you're not going to deal good damage to whomever you're shooting at that distance.Along with that, you have no critical hits and a halved projectile speed. Sledgehammer currently is a huge statistical downgrade to your Thunder.

 

 

After the dust has settled, we are left with a solid but not OP Stock turret whose augments consist of:

1. Stock with damage increase when injured
2. Stock without splash but higher projectile speed, impact force and slightly faster firing rate
3. Decreased damage output
4. Tremendously decreased damage output

 

Don't worry though. Thunder is getting new augments in Ultra Containers. We've had two status augments, more to come, and an augment that allows you to deal 200% of Stock's damage after 60m with a higher projectile speed than Subcalibre Rounds and directly powercreeps Sledgehammer if the target is further than 23m away from it. Nothing is wrong here. 

[PirateSpider 1,489]

The new thunder augments look fun.

[lxr 8]

so thunder vacuum got a nerf?

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 2/6/2023 at 5:21 PM, luxry said:

so thunder vacuum got a nerf?

In short, yes. If you were playing it by constantly shooting at obstacles near an enemy, then it's a nerf. If you were a casual player and played it like you would a Stock Thunder, then it's more of a buff. 

[lxr 8]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:28 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

In short, yes. If you were playing it by constantly shooting at obstacles near an enemy, then it's a nerf. If you were a casual player and played it like you would a Stock Thunder, then it's more of a buff. 

can you explain a bit please

[AlangasaurusJWTG 0]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:27 PM, wolverine848 said:

 

I suppose if you got lucky (or bought) one of the premium augments like stun or EMP or AP it might do better.  

EMP Rounds is good. And I'm not having any aiming problems. 

[CompleteDeception 2]

I think that shot effects should be added to Thunder and also Smoky. These two turrets have been in the game since the beginning and are two of only four turrets that don't have any shot effects the other two being Tesla and Scorpion. I think that their longevity grants them a need to have a shot effect added. The Thunder explosion could be different colour similar to the way the striker effect was done and the Smoky one could be the trail behind the shot and the impact explosion. It would also be possible to do shot effects for Tesla and Scorpion. The Scorpion rocket trail could be different colours and the tesla ball and electric jumps ( I cant remember the technical term sorry) could be coloured. 

Its just a thought but i thought it would be a cool idea.

[NooNooHead 121]

Has anyone got the Strict Ammunition Load augment ? I believe it was available for purchase months ago in a package. A certain player (name ending in ....java) I've come across has this and can get 40+ kills in a match using ares + thunder + brutus. He ignores match objectives.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:37 PM, NooNooHead said:

Has anyone got the Strict Ammunition Load augment ? I believe it was available for purchase months ago in a package. A certain player (name ending in ....java) I've come across has this and can get 40+ kills in a match using ares + thunder + brutus. He ignores match objectives.

Ares with anything inflates your kill count in battle.

 

Strict Ammunition Load has only be available in that bundle as well as only one iteration of UCs around a year ago, so not many people have it, and most of those who do have no reason to use it (they'd also have Vacuum Shell and Adaptive Reload). 

 

Furthermore, its niche has diminished a bit with the recent Thunder critical chance changes. Armadillo helps against it very well. With the amount of stray Armadillos in battles lately, it's nothing spectacular.