Let's Discuss Thunder!

[PirateSpider 1,489]

34 minutes ago, Abellia said:

Striker's barrels are more of an advantage than a disadvantage - particularly with precise augments like RRE as you mentioned, they just take some getting used to.

I wouldn't really call it an advantage. Maybe when you have to swing the hull. RRE may rival thunders splash but, thunder has the accuracy potential advantage especially at long range. RRE is good for when the rocket misses the target, it can be detonated right next to it.

34 minutes ago, Abellia said:

However, I don't think that Thunder having the easiest way to make use of splash is enough. Splash is not a unique mechanic, and neither is Thunder's ability to make use of it, you're severely underestimating the potential of Striker, Smoky, and Gauss' splash damages, (in my experience, at least).

Well, might not be a big advantage, but its still considerable. And honestly, I'm not underestimating anything. I think the majority of the forum community is underestimating what thunder is capable of when not hampered by protections, but that's beside the point.

37 minutes ago, Abellia said:

It's also not really a problem with legend battles, as I find that lower rank battles are more prone to severe mechanical (p2w) abuse, even if the slower battles means less of a frustrating "getting stomped" experience than occurs at high ranks.

Well yeah, the lower ranks is more susceptible to p2w players, but the rank and GS gaps down there are considerably less than in the higher ranks. You might find players with 0 GS battling against 1000 GS or even 2000 and that tends to be just one player in the battle when it happens. But in legend ranks, you would have 2k and 3k GS players going against 8k to 10k GS players, and it happens all the time. (Or at least what the players screenshots tell me)

47 minutes ago, Abellia said:

As for Thunder having all the tools it needs - I really don't think so. Again - even if you say that easy access to splash damage is why it's still good, it simply lacks power. Striker has the advantage of a second firing mode, but I can't help but notice that they also gave it double damage crits, ridiculously fast reload, and an unnecessary damage buff up to 900 damage. Thunder, which is inherently more reliant on its primary (and only) mode, hence deserving of the same if not more power, and has a mildly larger splash radius as its strength, has been stuck in 2019, and has even had its augments stripped bare recently thanks to statistical nerfs that tear open their downsides and make them unplayable next to stock Thunder. How is Thunder fine in 2021? 

Well yeah striker does need a crit damage nerf, agreed there. But I think its other buffs were quite justified. After all it was weak for 4 long years. They started buffing it until gauss came out and it was still weak. And now they seemed to care about striker again, which I'm glad.

Thunder on the other hand has been more or less the same for a long time except for the instant hit feature being removed. In 2021, I still see quite a few players using thunder. That never changed, except now, it seemed that the skills of thunder players have deteriorated. Just seem to be worse than they were in 2020.

[Abellia 504]

1 minute ago, PirateSpider said:

I wouldn't really call it an advantage. Maybe when you have to swing the hull. RRE may rival thunders splash but, thunder has the accuracy potential advantage especially at long range. RRE is good for when the rocket misses the target, it can be detonated right next to it.

Well, might not be a big advantage, but its still considerable. And honestly, I'm not underestimating anything. I think the majority of the forum community is underestimating what thunder is capable of when not hampered by protections, but that's beside the point.

Well yeah, the lower ranks is more susceptible to p2w players, but the rank and GS gaps down there are considerably less than in the higher ranks. You might find players with 0 GS battling against 1000 GS or even 2000 and that tends to be just one player in the battle when it happens. But in legend ranks, you would have 2k and 3k GS players going against 8k to 10k GS players, and it happens all the time. (Or at least what the players screenshots tell me)

Well yeah striker does need a crit damage nerf, agreed there. But I think its other buffs were quite justified. After all it was weak for 4 long years. They started buffing it until gauss came out and it was still weak. And now they seemed to care about striker again, which I'm glad.

Thunder on the other hand has been more or less the same for a long time except for the instant hit feature being removed. In 2021, I still see quite a few players using thunder. That never changed, except now, it seemed that the skills of thunder players have deteriorated. Just seem to be worse than they were in 2020.

RRE's main function is not for when you miss - RRE is best used to hit people who are hiding, or who are otherwise at angles where you couldn't hit them normally.

For Thunder being underestimated - I would have agreed to you, before the recent patches. Back then, old Booster let Thunder punch through protections, and it still had a powerful, easy reload booster that kept you above 750 damage for a decent range - Sledgehammer. That's gone now though, and I still think that whatever Thunder is capable of when not hampered by protections falls far short of what other turrets can pull off when against unprotected enemies.

I disagree that lower ranks are less susceptible to p2w players - in my experience, it's been the other way around. You have full squads of Lieutenant Colonels with 9999 GS fighting Colonel f2ps at 5k-6k GS, and I see that as a far bigger problem than the 2k and 3k GS Field Marshals fighting maxed out legends - the big problem is the exp gain which only widens the gap, but at some point you have to blame people for having ranked up too fast and not gotten their gear in place, i.e. said 2k-3k GS Field Marshals.

As for Striker's buffs being justified - I think that for the most part, they've been unnecessary for a long time. The buff from 1.8 seconds down to 1.7 allowing it to pretty much completely destroy Sledgehammer's niche with MLH, the double damage crits, the damage buff up to 900 - Striker was perfectly fine before, I had no issues using it then and I find it simply feels overpowered nowadays. I think they got fed up of people sucking at using Striker and buffed it as a result - which I am NOT happy about.

As for Thunder not having changed - that's exactly the problem. Other turrets have only gotten better over time for the most part, and I think that's part of why the skills of Thunder players have deteriorated in your eyes - everything else has just gotten better, enough that Thunder has been left behind in the dust. 

[2shots2kills 2,366]

37 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

 

Maybe you should take a look at Smoky first...

I already did. Smoky lost its uniqueness when Critical Damage was introduced, and Thunder has always been a "different" Smoky in its characteristics. You know that, do you?

In the end, there is no other way to make this Turret competitive, either you increase its DPS or its raw damage. 

 

 

[PirateSpider 1,489]

31 minutes ago, Abellia said:

that lower ranks are less susceptible to p2w players

I did not say that.

46 minutes ago, PirateSpider said:

Well yeah, the lower ranks is more susceptible to p2w players, but the rank and GS gaps down there are considerably less than in the higher ranks. You might find players with 0 GS battling against 1000 GS or even 2000 and that tends to be just one player in the battle when it happens. But in legend ranks, you would have 2k and 3k GS players going against 8k to 10k GS players, and it happens all the time. (Or at least what the players screenshots tell me)

 

[2shots2kills 2,366]

34 minutes ago, Abellia said:

I think that's part of why the skills of Thunder players have deteriorated in your eyes - everything else has just gotten better, enough that Thunder has been left behind in the dust. 

Its not that the skills of Thunder players have deteriorated, it's that most of the skilled players who used Thunder have now moved on and changed to more performing Turrets. 

Have you ever seen a 9999GS Legend who was dominating with Thunder? All I see are Hammers, Strikers, Teslas, AP Freezes, Vulcans, Isidas. 

At high ranks only newbies use Thunder, and they get stomped every single time.

Edited October 29, 2021 by 2shots2kills

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

13 minutes ago, 2shots2kills said:

I already did. Smoky lost its uniqueness when Critical Damage was introduced, and Thunder has always been a "different" Smoky in its characteristics. You know that, do you?

In the end, there is no other way to make this Turret competitive, either you increase its DPS or its raw damage. 

Your proposal makes Thunder directly powercreep Smoky, if it wasn't obvious. 

[PirateSpider 1,489]

33 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Your proposal makes Thunder directly powercreep Smoky, if it wasn't obvious. 

Yeah, if I wanted to used smoky, I would have bought smoky. But I bought thunder for what it can do.

[wolverine848 13,097]

3 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

Reduce the reload time from 2.20 to 1.50

 

Increase critical rate to a fixed 50% (just like Railgun)

You realize smoky's 7% better reload would in no way make up for the much better damage and significantly better Critical chance you want to give Thunder.  And then there's the splash damage...

I'm surprised you didn't campaign for reload of 1.45 seconds.

Or was it a sarcasm post?  Hard to tell these days...

Edited October 29, 2021 by wolverine848

[PirateSpider 1,489]

1 hour ago, At_Shin said:

It's just that thunder becomes weak against prots and players who use defender drone.

Don't forget when players stack protection modules on top of double armors. Actually if that problem were to be fixed, I think it would be the best way to solve the problem of many turrets being considered weak in the high and legend ranks.

I'd be fine with requiring 4 shots to kill a medium hull, but 8 shots and yeah good luck. And this doesn't even take into account of repair kit.

[2shots2kills 2,366]

7 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Your proposal makes Thunder directly powercreep Smoky, if it wasn't obvious. 

6 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

You realize smoky's 7% better reload would in no way make up for the much better damage and significantly better Critical chance you want to give Thunder.  And then there's the splash damage...

I'm surprised you didn't campaign for reload of 1.45 seconds.

Or was it a sarcasm post?  Hard to tell these days...

Smoky has access to Status Effect augments, which Thunder does not have. That alone makes Smoky worth playing even if it had less DPS than a reworked Thunder.

Anyways, let's take  quick look to current Striker VS my proposed Thunder buff you all seem to laugh about:

Spoiler

 

Striker:

Damage per rocket   - 880

Critical damage per rocket  - 1760

Impact force  - 300

Single reload time  - 1.60

crit chance  - 9%

Crit chance step  - 10%

 

Thunder:

Damage  - 750

Critical Damage  - 900

Impact Force  - 750

Reload time  - 1.50

crit chance  - 50%

Crit chance step  - 0%

 

So, would you play this Thunder over standard Striker? All you have is more crit chance and better impact force. (which is useless against hovering hulls)

Thunder's damage would still drop off like crazy at range and its augments would all still be awful. 

 

Striker has its lock on mode, Its rockets have no issues with Range, and it has a wide selection of augments, from RRE to Hunter to Cyclone.

AND Striker has Stun and AP augments.

And you talk about powercreep uh?

 

IF Thunder gets Status effect augments, then it's all a different story, of course.  Maybe I should have clarified that first.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by 2shots2kills

[PirateSpider 1,489]

4 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

my proposed Thunder buff you all seem to laugh about:

Because its ridiculous, just turns thunder into an overpowered version of smoky. That fast firing rate combined with that impact force ensures that no other turret would stand a chance against it.

4 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

All you have is more crit chance and better impact force. (which is useless against hovering hulls)

I disagree with the "impact being useless against hovering hulls" claim. Ive had situations where I had my whole tank get turned to another direction by a railgun who hit me in the right spot while I was using crusader. Your proposed thunder would no doubt do the same.

5 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

Striker has its lock on mode, 

I don't see why this is even an advantage like some of you claim.

Its just simply a feature.

5 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

So, would you play this Thunder over standard Striker?

Nope, because this proposal is not why I bought thunder. I didn't buy it to dominate battles with a guaranteed 100% chance. 

I bought it because I literally "fell in love with it" for what it did and still currently does. It was simple to play with, but with complex thinking and skill you could turn it into a deadly assassin, a murder machine, whatever anyone wants to call it. I enjoyed that concept, and still am.

Besides, whenever I use thunder in 2021, I always seem to carry my team to victory or close to victory. So it definitely does not need your crazy proposed change.

[2shots2kills 2,366]

32 minutes ago, PirateSpider said:

Besides, whenever I use thunder in 2021, I always seem to carry my team to victory or close to victory. So it definitely does not need your crazy proposed change.

So, just because you (or me, or anyone else) can carry and win with Thunder it means that this Turret is perfectly OK. I see. It's useless to discuss with you if you have that mindset.

Spoiler

This battle was done with Thunder, I have played this Turret since 2012, of course I can do well with it, but it is still hopeless and outclassed. If I had EMP Smoky, Hammer or Striker I would have done 10x better than that.

Maybe I suggested such a strong buff because I miss the old times when this turret used to dominate, but I also did it just to compare it with Striker and to show just how OP that Turret is.

Also, if you do not think that a lock on mode where you can launch a bunch of rockets to kill almost any Tank it's not an advantage (over having NOTHING), than I do not know what to say.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

6 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

Smoky has access to Status Effect augments, which Thunder does not have. That alone makes Smoky worth playing even if it had less DPS than a reworked Thunder.

Anyways, let's take  quick look to current Striker VS my proposed Thunder buff you all seem to laugh about:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Striker:

Damage per rocket   - 880

Critical damage per rocket  - 1760

Impact force  - 300

Single reload time  - 1.60

crit chance  - 9%

Crit chance step  - 10%

 

Thunder:

Damage  - 750

Critical Damage  - 900

Impact Force  - 750

Reload time  - 1.50

crit chance  - 50%

Crit chance step  - 0%

 

 

I'm having a hard time trying to compare it to Striker when you blatantly make it Smoky but better. 

 

Your Mk7+ Thunder: 

 

750 normal damage 

900 critical damage 

1.50 reload time 

50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 

750 impact force 

7m critical splash radius 

400m/sec projectile speed

 

 

Mk7+ High-Precision Aiming System:

 

765 normal damage 

935 critical damage 

1.98 reload time

-50, -10, 30, 50, -50, -10, 30, 50, -50

330 impact force 

No critical splash 

375m/sec projectile speed 

 

That is Smoky's damage-increasing augment in comparison to your Thunder rework. With Stock Smoky, the difference is even worse, and we haven't even taken into account the existence of its augemnts and Booster/Crisis. 

 

"Smoky has status augments". Pitiful status augments except EMP, yes. Critical hits are AP for protection modules, and you propose Thunder have that 50% of the time with the firing rate of a Smoky. Do you not see a problem with that?

[PirateSpider 1,489]

25 minutes ago, 2shots2kills said:

This battle was done with Thunder, I have played this Turret since 2012, of course I can do well with it, but it is still hopeless and outclassed. If I had EMP Smoky, Hammer or Striker I would have done 10x better than that.

So if you used hammer, striker or EMP smoky, you would have gotten 7200 score points, 260 kills, and 33,380 crystals in that battle? Is that what you are saying?

[2shots2kills 2,366]

19 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

I'm having a hard time trying to compare it to Striker when you blatantly make it Smoky but better. 

 

Your Mk7+ Thunder: 

 

750 normal damage 

900 critical damage 

1.50 reload time 

50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 

750 impact force 

7m critical splash radius 

400m/sec projectile speed

 

 

Mk7+ High-Precision Aiming System:

 

765 normal damage 

935 critical damage 

1.98 reload time

-50, -10, 30, 50, -50, -10, 30, 50, -50

330 impact force 

No critical splash 

375m/sec projectile speed 

 

That is Smoky's damage-increasing augment in comparison to your Thunder rework. With Stock Smoky, the difference is even worse, and we haven't even taken into account the existence of its augemnts and Booster/Crisis. 

 

"Smoky has status augments". Pitiful status augments except EMP, yes. Critical hits are AP for protection modules, and you propose Thunder have that 50% of the time with the firing rate of a Smoky. Do you not see a problem with that?

I may have gone a bit overboard, but it is always possible to tweak the stats and make it balanced compared to the rest of the equipment.

But as you can see, with almost any buff, Thunder would just end up being a better Smoky.

18 minutes ago, PirateSpider said:

So if you used hammer, striker or EMP smoky, you would have gotten 7200 score points, 260 kills, and 33,380 crystals in that battle? Is that what you are saying?

I would have gotten 10k score points, 400 kills, 60,666 crystals and deleted Hopper from the game entirely.

I was just stating a point saying that those Turrets are better, did you really take that as a precise calculation? Are you trying to make me look stupid or are you just dense? 

Let's stop here.

[PirateSpider 1,489]

41 minutes ago, 2shots2kills said:

would have gotten 10k score points, 400 kills, 60,666 crystals

But that's not "10x better" as you were claiming. That's way over that. Those numbers are like 13x, 15x, and 20x better than the numbers in your screenshot.

48 minutes ago, 2shots2kills said:

Are you trying to make me look stupid? 

Well, that would have been the best part, unfortunately you're already doing that to yourself with your statements.

[Abellia 504]

49 minutes ago, 2shots2kills said:

I may have gone a bit overboard, but it is always possible to tweak the stats and make it balanced compared to the rest of the equipment.

But as you can see, with almost any buff, Thunder would just end up being a better Smoky.

I would have gotten 10k score points, 400 kills, 60,666 crystals and deleted Hopper from the game entirely.

I was just stating a point saying that those Turrets are better, did you really take that as a precise calculation? Are you trying to make me look stupid or are you just dense? 

Let's stop here.

There are better ways to improve a turret than throwing bigger numbers on it until it kills things fast enough that people say it's strong. 

[2shots2kills 2,366]

11 minutes ago, PirateSpider said:

that would have been the best part, unfortunately you're already doing that to yourself with your statements.

Am I? You are the one trying to troll and provoke a forum member for expressing his opinion and proposing an idea. 

Maybe you are used to chat to 10 year olds or to people down to your level, but I'd prefer discussing thinks in a civil manner. I am afraid that's not possibile with you here.

How terrible... Anyway, back to the important stuff.

9 minutes ago, Abellia said:

There are better ways to improve a turret than throwing bigger numbers on it until it kills things fast enough that people say it's strong. 

Sadly, that is the way Tanki has done things in the past few years. Either buff, or introduce overpowered Status Augments. 

What changes would you personally make to Thunder to make it competitive? Genuine question.

[wolverine848 13,097]

9 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

Smoky has access to Status Effect augments, which Thunder does not have.

Irrelevant in deciding stock parameters.

And... we all KNOW Thunder will get more augments,.

Buffing Thunder to match one specific other turret is a mistake.

[PirateSpider 1,489]

1 hour ago, 2shots2kills said:

Am I? You are the one trying to troll and provoke a forum member for expressing his opinion and proposing an idea. 

Maybe you are used to chat to 10 year olds or to people down to your level, but I'd prefer discussing thinks in a civil manner. I am afraid that's not possibile with you here.

How terrible... Anyway, back to the important stuff.

Oh, I smell a massive stench of hypocrisy from this statement. Yes I'm trolling you and roasting you based off of what you said, but remember, you started it. So that means you asked for it. Proof is below:

3 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

So, just because you (or me, or anyone else) can carry and win with Thunder it means that this Turret is perfectly OK. I see. It's useless to discuss with you if you have that mindset.

I would have said the same thing to you, but I didn't because I'm alot more civil than you think. @TheCongoSpider, @wolverine848, and @At_Shin know me very well. They know that I'm respectful until provoked. They been with me for a long time, including when I came back in beginning of June of this year.

2 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

And... we all KNOW Thunder will get more augments,.

That's really all I want for thunder. More augments, just not the generic ones that inflicts status effects.

[2shots2kills 2,366]

1 minute ago, wolverine848 said:

And... we all KNOW Thunder will get more augments

I know, as I said in a previous post.

9 hours ago, 2shots2kills said:

IF Thunder gets Status effect augments, then it's all a different story, of course. Maybe I should have clarified that first.

 

But still, a Turret should already be competitive before taking augments into consideration. Just like Vulcan, which is already quite good in stock form.

 

Maybe my changes were too extreme, but I still think that the only way to make this turret competitive is to increase its critical rate, in order to bypass protections. 

A bit like current Railgun.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Just now, 2shots2kills said:

Maybe my changes were too extreme, but I still think that the only way to make this turret competitive is to increase its critical rate, in order to bypass protections. 

How can everyone equip modules for ... Rail + Shaft + Gauss + Thunder + Tesla + ...

Players keep suggesting buffs to their fav turret because "everyone" uses that module.

90% of the players use 3 modules because they can't afford 4.  Even then, I've listed 5 popular turrets.

So ... how can "everyone" be using a module against all those turrets?

[2shots2kills 2,366]

2 minutes ago, PirateSpider said:

Oh, I smell a massive stench of hypocrisy from this statement. Yes I'm trolling you and roasting you based off of what you said, but remember, you started it. So that means you asked for it.

 You said that since you can carry and get good results with Thunder, the turret is alright and it is doing well. I replied saying that such a statement makes no sense. 

If I can win a race with a crap car thanks to my skills, that's thanks to my skills alone, the car is still crap. That's why I said that it was useless discussing with such a mindset.

--

Then you started trolling for no reason, and certainly you did not pass as a civil forum member. But I do not care don't worry, I have been here for 10 years now and I don't have a problem if I do not get along with someone, for whatever reason. 

[2shots2kills 2,366]

6 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

How can everyone equip modules for ... Rail + Shaft + Gauss + Thunder + Tesla + ...

Players keep suggesting buffs to their fav turret because "everyone" uses that module.

90% of the players use 3 modules because they can't afford 4.  Even then, I've listed 5 popular turrets.

So ... how can "everyone" be using a module against all those turrets?

Look, I'd much prefer to nerf the damage of the problematic turrets across the board and to slightly increase the Hulls HP, but we know that the Devs do not work this way.

I remember the experiment done a while ago, where they increased the Tanks HP, I quite liked that.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by 2shots2kills

[PirateSpider 1,489]

1 hour ago, 2shots2kills said:

You said that since you can carry and get good results with Thunder, the turret is alright and it is doing well. I replied saying that such a statement makes no sense. 

If I can win a race with a crap car thanks to my skills, that's thanks to my skills alone, the car is still crap. That's why I said that it was useless discussing with such a mindset.

Or you just won't admit that its doing fine. When I used thunder, I didn't feel like I had to use a ton of effort to do well. I actually had fun using it.

Whenever I used turrets like railgun, magnum, hammer, and post nerf shaft, I felt like I had to put in a ridiculous amount of effort to do well in battles. It felt like a chore doing so.

1 hour ago, 2shots2kills said:

Then you started trolling for no reason, and certainly you did not pass as a civil forum member. But I do not care don't worry, I have been here for 10 years now and I don't have a problem if I do not get along with someone, for whatever reason. 

Touche, well anyway, if I did not pass as being civil, then you sure as hell flunked it badly. And obviously you do care because you're commenting about it, meaning you care enough to take the time to comment on it.