Let's Discuss Firebird!

[splitterpoint 10,986]

I barely ever use shaft after it received distance nerf, which was what, a year ago? 

 

Ah the days.. same here; it's all about arcade shots now and I don't like the gameplay of that so it's sitting in my garage for now. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

 

 

I have never been camper and I only play CTF lately hehe. Don't be fooled by my profile, most of my DM was with Shaft/Titan, I barely ever use shaft after it received distance nerf, which was what, a year ago? 

 

In CTF, doesn't matter the turret, I always play attacking roll. 

 

 

Since firebird's range is extremely small, it's very easy to avoid them if you posess skills of driving backwords while shooting. Since they need to be close to you to make some damage, they always follow you. Place a mine or 9 and it's again a dead firebird. Shoot a corner with rail and firebird starts to hug a wall. Not even gonna mention smoky or twins.

 

But still, I barely EVER see firebird in a CTF battle being on top. Obviously, if he knows how to play, you don't need much kills in CTF to become first.

 

Might be completely different story in CP, but those are always noobish battles for big hulls. Referring mostly to Poly CP, which people use to play a lot.

 

I am not trying to insult anyone here, just friendly conversation and optinion.

 

Every turret can be deadly in correct hands.

 

 

Distance nerf on... Arcade?  I bet Shaft is way more viable now in DM with triple-shot alteration.

 

If you are far enough away and driving backward, and fire still follows you - that is a noob.

Fire that know what they are doing don't fall into that trap.  They will use cover and speed to maneuver into attack position.

 

Have been in battles where half the enemy team is Fire.  Does not happen as often on larger maps like highways sure.

But on medium to smaller-sized maps there are tons, where they can burn and run, or take out 2-3 tanks at once.

Even with 46% protection my medium hull does not last long.

And if you are trying to grab a flag in CTF, it's difficult to avoid them - if they are good they don't sit in open as they wait for you.

 

CP for big hulls?  I don't see many actually.  Depends on map-size I guess. Medium to larger map you want more speed - so medium or even light hulls let you cap much faster.

[splitterpoint 10,986]

Distance nerf on... Arcade?  

No, on scope mode.. Back when you could sit back in the base and pick out Hornets spawning at the far other side of the map.

Now not so much anymore because of the instant energy depletion no matter how short the scoped shot is. 

[Truthteller 4,204]

Then how do you explain the fact that firebird is everywhere?

It's because the M2 version is overpowered - paired with the alteration and no high protections against it

 

 

Isida has draw with firebird - at best.  Good chance the afterburn can kill isida while firebird hides.  Does not take much exposure to kill even a medium hull.  And Firebird can damage multiple targets at same time. Isida it's one target at a time.

Isida does much more damage than firebird it can kill anything one on one, specially when I paired it with hunter - also protections  against isida is rarer 

 

You forgot to mention that isida attack energy drains faster than firebird.

it has like 2x damage and can kill any hull before all of its energy drains

 

 

 

Firebird is nothing special Freeze and Isida are much more scarier to face.. you can easily keep you distance for a fire and then pop a repair when they drain their ammo works everytime.. Also I only have 20% from firebird..

[wolverine848 13,097]

 

Isida does much more damage than firebird it can kill anything one on one, specially when I paired it with hunter - also protections  against isida is rarer 

 

it has like 2x damage and can kill any hull before all of its energy drains

 

Firebird can burn and run - and you may still die

You can destroy firebird and you can still die from the afterburn.

 

It has "2x damage" compared to... what?

[Truthteller 4,204]

Firebird can burn and run - and you may still die

You can destroy firebird and you can still die from the afterburn.

 

It has "2x damage" compared to... what?

If the firebird runs that just makes it easier for you to use repair while the firebird gets 0 score and half of its health gone for your team to easily finish it off

 

Ok not exactly 2x the damage (comparing it to firebird) 

[wolverine848 13,097]

If the firebird runs that just makes it easier for you to use repair while the firebird gets 0 score and half of its health gone for your team to easily finish it off

 

Ok not exactly 2x the damage (comparing it to firebird) 

Hold on... you get to use RK and Fire does not?  And is it 1 or 2 or 3 (or more) vs the firebird?

 

You might be comparing base damage only.  At m3, 882 vs 669 is only 32% better - way lower than 100% (2x). 

Now add burn damage - how many seconds for m3?

 

It's not easier for you if fire runs after burning you.  That's one important strategy for fire.  At worst for fire, you have used up RK.  Next burn and you don't survive.

[Truthteller 4,204]

Hold on... you get to use RK and Fire does not?  And is it 1 or 2 or 3 (or more) vs the firebird?

 

You might be comparing base damage only.  At m3, 882 vs 669 is only 32% better - way lower than 100% (2x). 

Now add burn damage - how many seconds for m3?

 

It's not easier for you if fire runs after burning you.  That's one important strategy for fire.  At worst for fire, you have used up RK.  Next burn and you don't survive.

Who said the Firebird doesn't get to use RK? 

 

I was giving a normal battle situation] most battles aren't a 1 v 1 ...

 

Running away doesn't make sense - why run and let the person shoot you while you are running instead of using your extra ammo? you will be dead in a few seconds like this if you are using a medium hull. This only makes sense in a map with allot of cover where you can quickly hide.

 

And I don't get the complaints here.. if you let a short-range turret get close to you and it uses all it's energy on you then it deserves to kill you

When I am talking about facing firebird I am talking from perspective of shaft which is a long range turret.. A rico / twins / vulcan etc will have much easier time killing a firebird than me and even nullify the affect of any repair kit the firebird uses.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Who said the Firebird doesn't get to use RK? 

 

I was giving a normal battle situation] most battles aren't a 1 v 1 ...

 

Running away doesn't make sense - why run and let the person shoot you while you are running instead of using your extra ammo? you will be dead in a few seconds like this if you are using a medium hull. This only makes sense in a map with allot of cover where you can quickly hide.

 

And I don't get the complaints here.. if you let a short-range turret get close to you and it uses all it's energy on you then it deserves to kill you

When I am talking about facing firebird I am talking from perspective of shaft which is a long range turret.. A rico / twins / vulcan etc will have much easier time killing a firebird than me and even nullify the affect of any repair kit the firebird uses.

From a Shaft perspective?  

 

Well, the fire or Isida have to make their way to you without getting killed.

In either case they would have cover, or not do it at all.

A fire that has cover will burn and run - doing damage as it runs and recharges energy.  Isida must duke it out until one is dead.

This is how a proper firebird acts - not a charge in the open where it gets picked off.

 

Our issue is - the firebird does not have to drain it's energy pool to kill targets.  2 seconds exposure can do it.  Afterburn from compact tanks is ridiculously OP.  More-so than Isida (which has only useless alterations).

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Who said the Firebird doesn't get to use RK? 

 

I was giving a normal battle situation] most battles aren't a 1 v 1 ...

 

Running away doesn't make sense - why run and let the person shoot you while you are running instead of using your extra ammo? you will be dead in a few seconds like this if you are using a medium hull. This only makes sense in a map with allot of cover where you can quickly hide.

 

And I don't get the complaints here.. if you let a short-range turret get close to you and it uses all it's energy on you then it deserves to kill you

When I am talking about facing firebird I am talking from perspective of shaft which is a long range turret.. A rico / twins / vulcan etc will have much easier time killing a firebird than me and even nullify the affect of any repair kit the firebird uses.

I wish I see those firebird that just look for their next target assuming that the after burn will kill me. But I don't, I see the firebird that just chase me all over the Damn map till I die.

 

And you don't need to let the firebird get close to you, it can use all those walls that you mentioned as a way to get to you undetected.

[Truthteller 4,204]

From a Shaft perspective?  

 

Well, the fire or Isida have to make their way to you without getting killed.

In either case they would have cover, or not do it at all.

A fire that has cover will burn and run - doing damage as it runs and recharges energy.  Isida must duke it out until one is dead.

This is how a proper firebird acts - not a charge in the open where it gets picked off.

 

Our issue is - the firebird does not have to drain it's energy pool to kill targets.  2 seconds exposure can do it.  Afterburn from compact tanks is ridiculously OP.  More-so than Isida (which has only useless alterations).

I don't see anyone who uses firebird like this anymore - maybe in low ranks but it does not seem effective at all and I doubt 2 seconds is enough to kill a viking and I doubt you use firebird which is why you have skewed perspective on this - compact alteration increases burning effect but the energy bar runs out really fast it's not really better than standard firebird - so if you sacrifice this whole bar on a tank you definitely deserve a kill, and no 2 seconds is not enough you can just use a repair kit to counter that - looking from your profile you have m3 firebird module that's more than me..

 

Isida and Freeze are worse in this comparison.. Freeze does not even give you fair fighting chance and just freezes you on spot and Isida has the highest DPS and is much more harder to fight than firebird why are you just targeting firebird then? all short range turrets are powerful at short range, freeze and isida being more so and with less protections to counter them 

[Truthteller 4,204]

I wish I see those firebird that just look for their next target assuming that the after burn will kill me. But I don't, I see the firebird that just chase me all over the Damn map till I die.

 

And you don't need to let the firebird get close to you, it can use all those walls that you mentioned as a way to get to you undetected.

I mean look at all the effort this firebird is going through to get a kill and you say it is OP..

It is using it with such skill hiding behind walls going undetected and you still are complaining..

 

Compare this to Thunder or Shaft just shoot and kill or snipe from distance that takes much less skill than what these firebirds are supposedly doing for each kill - if you couldn't detect this firebird and it got close to you then you deserve to die, I don't see why you are complaining, get better at fighting them or use protection. At least firebird gives you fighting chance - It is not like freeze magnum or shaft!

Edited January 2, 2019 by Truthteller

[wolverine848 13,097]

I don't see anyone who uses firebird like this anymore - maybe in low ranks but it does not seem effective at all and I doubt 2 seconds is enough to kill a viking and I doubt you use firebird which is why you have skewed perspective on this - compact alteration increases burning effect but the energy bar runs out really fast it's not really better than standard firebird - so if you sacrifice this whole bar on a tank you definitely deserve a kill, and no 2 seconds is not enough you can just use a repair kit to counter that - looking from your profile you have m3 firebird module that's more than me..

 

Isida and Freeze are worse in this comparison.. Freeze does not even give you fair fighting chance and just freezes you on spot and Isida has the highest DPS and is much more harder to fight than firebird why are you just targeting firebird then? all short range turrets are powerful at short range, freeze and isida being more so and with less protections to counter them 

Lower ranks?  I see Legend teams - half of them firebird (4 of 8).  On small to medium maps and even maps like Serpuhov have at least a couple per team.

 

I used firebird at m1 and it was potent.  it's even more potent now.

 

Isida might have highest DPS but it can't kill a heavy hull that has a module. Runs out before the target is dead.

 

Have you ever tried to cap a flag?  A firebird does not have to make it's way across the map to get lots of kills.

Or stay on Sandal when it loads for you - they are on you in 3-4 seconds - most of the time under cover.

 

Not every MM battle is a campers paradise like Highways.

[Truthteller 4,204]

Lower ranks?  I see Legend teams - half of them firebird (4 of 8).  On small to medium maps and even maps like Serpuhov have at least a couple per team.

 

I used firebird at m1 and it was potent.  it's even more potent now.

 

Isida might have highest DPS but it can't kill a heavy hull that has a module. Runs out before the target is dead.

 

Have you ever tried to cap a flag?  A firebird does not have to make it's way across the map to get lots of kills.

Or stay on Sandal when it loads for you - they are on you in 3-4 seconds - most of the time under cover.

 

Not every MM battle is a campers paradise like Highways.

Ok fine I can say this is true Isida can't kill heavy hull with module (I use Isida myself) 

 

And that's funny you assume I am one of those highway campers because I use Shaft.. I participate in every battle in MM and I don't camp I am a midfielder - use shaft similar to thunder If you played in battle with me you'd know how I play - If I use long range turret effectively against firebird then why can't you use short or medium against firebird? This just sounds like whining to me..

Edited January 2, 2019 by Truthteller

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

I mean look at all the effort this firebird is going through to get a kill and you say it is OP..

It is using it with such skill hiding behind walls going undetected and you still are complaining..

 

Compare this to Thunder or Shaft just shoot and kill or snipe from distance that takes much less skill than what these firebirds are supposedly doing for each kill - if you couldn't detect this firebird and it got close to you then you deserve to die, I don't see why you are complaining, get better at fighting them or use protection. At least firebird gives you fighting chance - It is not like freeze magnum or shaft!

Firebird doesn't take skill, besides hulls are fast enough to get from one side of the map to the other side relatively quickly.

 

While you are focused on other targets, this firebird can just waltz right in and ambush you, and you wouldn't stand a chance.

 

Besides, you can just get freeze protections, because it literally cancels out the freeze effect. But firebird protections doesn't really do half the job that freeze does in cancelling out the burn.

 

What's worse is that 3 other turrets can get a hold of fire alterations.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Ok fine I can say this is true Isida can't kill heavy hull with module (I use Isida myself) 

 

And that's funny you assume I am one of those highway campers because I use Shaft.. I participate in every battle in MM and I don't camp I am a midfielder - use shaft similar to thunder If you played in battle with me you'd know how I play - If I use long range turret effectively against firebird then why can't you use short or medium against firebird? This just sounds like whining to me..

I agree with the rock-paper-scissors concept.   Unfortunately I feel that they introduced a 4th element here with buffed firebird.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Truthteller 4,204]

Firebird doesn't take skill, besides hulls are fast enough to get from one side of the map to the other side relatively quickly.

 

While you are focused on other targets, this firebird can just waltz right in and ambush you, and you wouldn't stand a chance.

 

Besides, you can just get freeze protections, because it literally cancels out the freeze effect. But firebird protections doesn't really do half the job that freeze does in cancelling out the burn.

 

What's worse is that 3 other turrets can get a hold of fire alterations.

Yeah well the way you were saying it that firebirds are chasing you and hiding behind walls undetected to go for a kill sounds like allot of effort..

I think you need more awareness in battle this doesn't happen to me - and my first focus would be the firebird coming near me than any other person, unless there's an isida / flag carrier etc

 

This part may be true about freeze protection having bigger effect than firebird - I myself haven't tried this out yet

Other turrets getting a hold of fire effect just makes the module more useful - and for me freeze effect is always more annoying than fire.

 

I agree with the rock-paper-scissors concept.   Unfortunately I feel that they introduced a 4th element here with buffed firebird.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Ok Fine

Edited January 2, 2019 by Truthteller

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Yeah well the way you were saying it that firebirds are chasing you and hiding behind walls undetected to go for a kill sounds like allot of effort..

I think you need more awareness in battle this doesn't happen to me - and my first focus would be the firebird coming near me than any other person, unless there's an isida / flag carrier etc

 

This part may be true about freeze protection having bigger effect than firebird - I myself haven't tried this out yet

Other turrets getting a hold of fire effect just makes the module more useful - and for me freeze effect is always more annoying than fire.

 

 

Ok Fine

Doesn't require effort other than just doing it. Mostly requires a brain to take a detour to take me down.

 

Maybe I need more awareness, but I don't see how it'll help me more when I'm already focused on another target. I think I just need 50 mines behind me between me and the firebird.

 

Besides you still haven't explained why firebird are everywhere. All you gave was a cheap ass answer saying "it's only everywhere in the m2 ranks" or something similar.

[Truthteller 4,204]

Doesn't require effort other than just doing it. Mostly requires a brain to take a detour to take me down.

 

Maybe I need more awareness, but I don't see how it'll help me more when I'm already focused on another target. I think I just need 50 mines behind me between me and the firebird.

 

Besides you still haven't explained why firebird are everywhere. All you gave was a cheap ass answer saying "it's only everywhere in the m2 ranks" or something similar.

Yes you do need more awareness in battle if you can't detect a firebird coming towards you and if it gets near you and expends it's energy then it will most likely kill you like all short-range turrets.

 

Well firebirds are everywhere at your rank because M2 version is overpowered and there aren't the 50% protections yet to counter it...

At these ranks there are firebirds but they don't make half the team most of the time like someone here said

 

Even if it is common doesn't mean its OP - Railgun and Thunder are common doesn't mean those are OP 

So still don't see why you are complaining about firebird and are ok with isida/freeze which are much more powerful than firebird and are guarantied a kill if they face off a person 1 v 1

[splitterpoint 10,986]

I am not using any alteration at all and I found Firebird to be a bit weak between all the protection modules.

I am also not very into Firebirds alterations so I'd like to know which one would be the most useful?

 

I use Firebird with Wasp most of the time. 

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Yes you do need more awareness in battle if you can't detect a firebird coming towards you and if it gets near you and expends it's energy then it will most likely kill you like all short-range turrets.

 

Well firebirds are everywhere at your rank because M2 version is overpowered and there aren't the 50% protections yet to counter it...

At these ranks there are firebirds but they don't make half the team most of the time like someone here said

 

Even if it is common doesn't mean its OP - Railgun and Thunder are common doesn't mean those are OP 

So still don't see why you are complaining about firebird and are ok with isida/freeze which are much more powerful than firebird and are guarantied a kill if they face off a person 1 v 1

I'm going to take a page out of wolverines book. Since we can't convince each other about our sides of the situation, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

 

At these ranks there are firebirds but they don't make half the team most of the time like someone here said. 

You'd be surprised. In Polygon CPs a team with at least 3 Firebirds will win (mainly because it is a relatively small map). Sometimes one team may contain as many as 7 Firebirds with at least half of them with Compact Tanks. The 300 tick damage is simply too much. 

 

In MM battles, half of the team aren't Firebirds but there are usually 2 or 3 of them, even in big maps. 

 

 

Even if it is common doesn't mean its OP - Railgun and Thunder are common doesn't mean those are OP. 

Railgun, like Isida and Shaft, is a turret that comes across various struggles when put against protection against it. Thunder is easy to use which may be a reason why it is common. Thunder is only balanced because there are many protections against it. Why do you think the price for M1 and M2 Thunder are one of the highest for Turrets? The damage output is heavy (when used against its respective modification tier of Hulls) and is rewarding to use given its mechanics and protection modules control that. 

Railgun is also fun to use and is rewarding to use. 

 

 

 

So still don't see why you are complaining about firebird and are ok with isida/freeze which are much more powerful than firebird and are guarantied a kill if they face off a person 1 v 1

For Isida, people often forget (and sometimes, don't make an effort to remember) that Isida is also a supportive turret. Isida has to defend itself somehow; this is why the damage output is so high coupled with a fast energy drain. Isida can't always win a 1 v 1 against a Firebird. What a lot of people do is picture them just staring at each other face to face and then start shooting. You can't only use that example when trying to put Turret vs Turret. You have the make the situation realistic. 

 

Most of the time, I am usually spotted by a Firebird, and vice versa, when my energy is about half-way spent. Let's just say that the Firebird spots me (and vice versa) when I'm at full energy. What makes you think that the Firebird would just stand in front of me and shoot. They wouldn't do that(usually but there are some exceptions  :ph34r:). They would try to circle me. Isidas have a problem where their beam would be attached to the enemy but they wouldn't be doing damage as the beam, on the Firebirds' screen, isn't attached to them. This causes precious energy from the Isida to be wasted which is very much needed to kill the Firebird. 

 

If they were to go head-on, the Isida would kill the Firebird first but the afterburn would inevitably kill the Isida right after. Firebird has a faster reload than Isida which would mean if they both ran out of ammo earlier than expected, the Firebird would almost always come out on top. 

 

Isida isn't very much more powerful than Firebird as people might think. In terms of direct damage done by attacking the enemy in a classic Tanki scenario, the results would be:

 

M0: Same damage.

 

M1: Isida has more damage by about 200. ( obviously because Isida M1 costs more than Firebird M1)

 

M2: Firebird has more damage by about 300. (obviously because Firebird M2 costs more than Isida M2) 

 

M3: Same damage.

 

M4: Same damage.

 

So they have the same damage in 3 tiers. Let's assume that the HP of the hull they are using equals the total damage they do. If Isida just so misses one tick of damage in those tiers, the Firebird would come out victorious. It is easy for Isida's beam to lose focus. It's not so easy for Firebird to lose focus since it has a bigger cone angle. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that Firebird comes out on top compared to Isida. 

 

 

 

For Freeze, it's a bit different. Usually, Freeze would come out on top almost dead or die by the last tick of fire damage because it minimises the damage it takes by circling the Firebird and freezing it. The Firebird usually gets in a good amount of damage and afterburn on the Freeze but it usually kills the freeze just before the Firebird dies or just after the Firebird dies. Freeze has good damage. The 2nd best direct damage out of all the melee ranged turrets. It's weird because usually freezing weapons deal the least direct damage compared to other ones which is how it was but that got changed. 

 

Freeze's effectiveness gets decreased a good bit when met with protection against it but Firebird's effectiveness isn't as decreased as Isida or Freeze when met with protection against it.

 

That is a reason why we complain about Firebird more than Isida or Freeze. 

 

This could have been longer but I have stuff to do right now so gotta make it more concise than it needs to be.

Edited January 6, 2019 by TheCongoSpider

[caiosilvac 567]

I am not using any alteration at all and I found Firebird to be a bit weak between all the protection modules.

I am also not very into Firebirds alterations so I'd like to know which one would be the most useful?

 

I use Firebird with Wasp most of the time. 

Compact Fuel Tanks is the only useful alteration for Firebird. it's ridiculously OP to be honest. Incendiary Mix was changed recently so it's no longer strong.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

Compact Fuel Tanks is the only useful alteration for Firebird. it's ridiculously OP to be honest. Incendiary Mix was changed recently so it's no longer strong.

It technically was never strong to begin with...

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

It's because the M2 version is overpowered - paired with the alteration and no high protections against it

Ah yess…...