Let's Discuss Hornet!

[Cleric 1,385]

6 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

It went through 2 changes. 

 

The first change was disabling the ability to manually gain Overdrive charge during the first 10 seconds (out of 30) of the Overdrive. 

 

The second change was removing the aforementioned penalty and decreasing the Overdrive duration from 30 seconds to 20 seconds, making it what it is today. This changed happened on 24th May, 2019. It has not received a change since then. 

And the devs think it is completely fine and leave it there for more than a year? What are the devs thinking?

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

11 minutes ago, Aegis said:

And the devs think it is completely fine and leave it there for more than a year? What are the devs thinking?

I'm sure the order of nerfs to the Overdrives was somewhat intentional. Maybe Hornet's nerf comes last because it helped Railgun and Thunder carry their burden of everyone having protection against them. Perhaps it needed to be kept strong to keep selling Railgun and Thunder skins. A massive nerf to Hornet will hurt those two turrets the most.

So I'm genuinely curious as to how Railgun will perform if the nerf to Hornet is large. Actually no, I'm interested in Thunder since Railgun has many alts that directly and indirectly increase its damage. Thunder just has reload-decreasing alts. I wonder what hull they'll flock to.

 

[Cleric 1,385]

Played a few games to complete daily missions.

 

Almost half of the players in both team are using Hornets.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Aegis

[cosmic666 1,055]

On 9/8/2020 at 11:21 PM, Aegis said:

And the devs think it is completely fine and leave it there for more than a year? What are the devs thinking?

$$$$$$$ What the devs always think of.

[cosmic666 1,055]

On 9/8/2020 at 11:38 PM, TheCongoSpider said:

I'm sure the order of nerfs to the Overdrives was somewhat intentional. Maybe Hornet's nerf comes last because it helped Railgun and Thunder carry their burden of everyone having protection against them. Perhaps it needed to be kept strong to keep selling Railgun and Thunder skins. A massive nerf to Hornet will hurt those two turrets the most.

So I'm genuinely curious as to how Railgun will perform if the nerf to Hornet is large. Actually no, I'm interested in Thunder since Railgun has many alts that directly and indirectly increase its damage. Thunder just has reload-decreasing alts. I wonder what hull they'll flock to.

 

Who cares i'm gonna slaughter them either way. If hornet gets a nerf i'm still gonna hunt the noobs down, they have had it good for to long....payback is a wonderful incentive to stay active in TO. 

[8_mkr 0]

Railgun

 

[wolverine848 13,097]

11 hours ago, Aegis said:

Played a few games to complete daily missions.

 

Almost half of the players in both team are using Hornets.

Not surprised.  See this all the time.   

Usually Rail and Magnum, but there's a few Gauss, Thunder and Vulcan as well.  Saw plenty of Shafts (RFM augment) too until Shaft received the nerf.

[Cleric 1,385]

So we have a new OP Hornet combo (what I'm saying? Everything is OP as soon as it is paired with Hornet)

 

Hornet + Gauss + Electromagnetic salvo augment

 

Me: Put down a Titan dome

OP Hornet: Full drugs on --> Gauss sniping shot (I have no drugs any more) --> Activate the OP OD --> dead Titan

• I can't activate double damage because of the Electromagnetic salvo augment.
• My dome do nothing because of that OP Hornet's OD
• My 45% gauss protection module do nothing because of that OP Hornet's OD

 

There is nothing I can do besides cursing the Devs, who are either

• so ignorant that thinking this is completely balanced
• knowing about this the whole time but decided not to do anything because over half of the players and "esport pros" has get used to the OPness of Hornet, which nerfing it may resulting in these players quitting the game and reduces the income
• knowing about this the whole time but don't give a damn about it because balancing gives no profit.

 

With whatever reason, the Devs decided to leave Hornet in an extremely OP state for over a year, and there is no sign the Devs are planning to do anything about it, besides a single helper mentioned some rumours.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Spy
Kindly refrain from using inappropriate language.

[Mrat13 34]

On 9/11/2020 at 4:01 AM, Aegis said:

 

Me: Put down a Titan dome

OP Hornet: Full drugs on --> Gauss sniping shot (I have no drugs any more) --> Activate the OP OD --> dead Titan

• I can't activate double damage because of the Electromagnetic salvo augment.
• My dome do nothing because of that OP Hornet's OD
• My 45% gauss protection module do nothing because of that OP Hornet's OD

Am I missing something? How can Hornet's OD defeat Dome? Doesn't it just detect enemies, not nullify protections? Just going off the description btw.

[wolverine848 13,097]

4 minutes ago, Mrat13 said:

Am I missing something? How can Hornet's OD defeat Dome? Doesn't it just detect enemies, not nullify protections? Just going off the description btw.

No.

It ignores ALL protections of every kind - even spawn protection.

A magnum-hornet with OD activated and DD enabled can one-shot a Titan sitting in it's dome with DA + 50% magnum protection.

 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

1 minute ago, Mrat13 said:

Am I missing something? How can Hornet's OD defeat Dome? Doesn't it just detect enemies, not nullify protections? Just going off the description btw.

Hornet's Overdrive ignores all protections of the enemy. That includes double armour, protection modules, Titan's Overdrive, and spawn protection. You will be dealing full damage to everyone you meet when your Overdrive is active. All of this on top of being able to see where enemies are and their HP bars. 

 

It also mentions this in the description as well. 

"Also, an automated system of data collection and processing enables the hull to stabilize each shot and hit the weak spots in target's armor." 

That is referring to its ability to ignore enemy protections. Hornet's Overdrive is the most effective counter to Titan's dome, because it can kill the players inside of it from far with ranged turrets. 

 

By chance, are you a new player? Or is this one of your alternate accounts that you started this week? 

[Mrat13 34]

5 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Hornet's Overdrive ignores all protections of the enemy. That includes double armour, protection modules, Titan's Overdrive, and spawn protection. You will be dealing full damage to everyone you meet when your Overdrive is active. All of this on top of being able to see where enemies are and their HP bars. 

 

It also mentions this in the description as well. 

"Also, an automated system of data collection and processing enables the hull to stabilize each shot and hit the weak spots in target's armor." 

That is referring to its ability to ignore enemy protections. Hornet's Overdrive is the most effective counter to Titan's dome, because it can kill the players inside of it from far with ranged turrets. 

 

By chance, are you a new player? Or is this one of your alternate accounts that you started this week? 

Quite new, yeah. Well, technically. Used to play years ago when the game was VERY different. Seems that account doesn't exist anymore though. They really need to update the description though, as it doesn't tell you just how OP it is, like they are trying to hide it.....

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

18 minutes ago, Mrat13 said:

Quite new, yeah. Well, technically. Used to play years ago when the game was VERY different. Seems that account doesn't exist anymore though. 

Ah that makes sense. 

 

18 minutes ago, Mrat13 said:

They really need to update the description though, as it doesn't tell you just how OP it is, like they are trying to hide it.....

I won't say that they're trying to "hide it". It turned out to be overpowered as time progressed. The descriptions merely tell you what the Overdrive does (and maybe some fun exaggerations here and there), - a simplified explanation that does not go in-depth. It does not show you the numbers associated with its effects.

 

The numbers and interaction outcomes can be found on the Wiki, and more in-depth numbers and interaction outcomes can be found by asking the members of the Forum in the respective topic. In this case, the respective topic is the Let's Discuss Overdrives topic. If you have any questions you want answered about the Overdrives, you can ask them there or in the Q&A section.

 

[Mrat13 34]

2 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

I won't say that they're trying to "hide it". It turned out to be overpowered as time progressed. The descriptions merely tell you what the Overdrive does (and maybe some fun exaggerations here and there), - a simplified explanation that does not go in-depth. It does not show you the numbers associated with its effects.

All the description says, is that it allows you to see all enemies on the battlefield. Not that it nullifies all protections. And I think the latter part is definitely the problem.....

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

34 minutes ago, Mrat13 said:

They really need to update the description though, as it doesn't tell you just how OP it is, like they are trying to hide it.....

As for why it doesn't seem overpowered to you, that is because in the low ranks, around yours, it is not considered overpowered. The Overdrive becomes a huge problem in the late modifications (Mk6, Mk7, Mk7+). The reason being that the turrets are all much more efficient in the higher modifications, as well as having access to thousands of supplies, drones that amplify those supplies, and high % protection modules that increase the Hornet's survivability. 

 

Let's take the turret Shaft for example. At Mk1, it has a "reload" of 5 seconds. After firing a sniping shot, it will take 5 seconds to fully reload its energy, allowing it to re-enter sniping mode. At Mk7+, it has a "reload" of 3 seconds. 

In both of those aforementioned modifications, they will instantly kill an unprotected medium hull of the same modification with a fully charged sniping shot. For most turrets, the damage they deal for a single shot is doubled from Mk1 - Mk7+. So if a turret like that deals 500 damage at Mk1, then it will deal 1,000 damage at Mk7+. The same is with hull HP. An Mk7+ modification of a hull will have 2x the HP of the same hull at Mk1. Mk1 Hornet has 1,000 HP. Mk7+ Hornet has 2,000 HP. 

 

In sniping mode, an Mk1 Shaft will take the same time to kill an Mk1 medium hull as an Mk7+ Shaft would take to kill and Mk7+ medium hull. The difference? The Mk7+ Shaft has a faster reload, allowing it to shoot that sniping shot more often in a given amount of time. And that is the main area where turrets become more efficient - the firing rate. A turret might deal the same % of HP as its lower modifications, but it is able to do that damage much more often than at the lower modifications. If a turret can shoot 10 times per minute at Mk1, it can probably shoot 20 times per minute at Mk7+. This results in a very large increase in damage output in a given amount of time. 

 

So you won't see Hornets going on killing sprees in the low ranks because your turret is not efficient at that modification. In the higher ranks, the massively increased damage output in a given time is what allows it to dominate. It's also a mixture of other parameter increases in the turret but that's the main one. A well-coordinated group of Hornets (the aforementioned death squads) can periodically lock down the enemy base and trap them there, spawnkilling them all while allowing their teammates to capture objectives. 

 

37 minutes ago, Mrat13 said:

All the description says, is that it allows you to see all enemies on the battlefield. Not that it nullifies all protections. And I think the latter part is definitely the problem.....

It says it later down. Everything under the word "Description" in the garage is the description. They give you the category of the hull, the specific gimmick of the hull, and the gist of the Overdrive in the first few sentences. In the paragraph below they will begin describing the hull's features and and allude to its Overdrive's effects. 

[Viking4s 10,791]

12 hours ago, Mrat13 said:

Quite new, yeah. Well, technically. Used to play years ago when the game was VERY different. Seems that account doesn't exist anymore though. They really need to update the description though, as it doesn't tell you just how OP it is, like they are trying to hide it.....

If they claim it OP, then there would be more player using it. Is it a good thing?

[alkyng 3,080]

Guys, we all know every OD have an obvious advantage .. like in Viking increase the Damage - Hunter OD stun the opponents

But the Hornet didn't have such an advantage that affect in others like those..

Some times you see the opponent without any protection no DA no protection module, using OD against him will not make any change

So I suggest in this situation give the turret 50% more damage to not make your OD useless, or make it always 50%+ damage... to make hornet have an obvious advantage like others

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

1 hour ago, asem.harbi said:

So I suggest in this situation give the turret 50% more damage to not make your OD useless, or make it always 50%+ damage... to make hornet have an obvious advantage like others

No, for 2 reasons. 

 

1. Applying a 50% damage increase during the Overdrive will change many interactions in the game that were already skewed in the Hornet's favour. Many fragile barriers will be broken. 

Most importantly, these turrets - Thunder, Striker, (augmented) Railgun, Gauss and Magnum.

 

Giving 50% more damage to Thunder and Striker will allow them to one-shot light hulls, and quickly 2-shot heavy hulls. That's just the Stock version. Then we have the augments. Sledgehammer Rounds and Small Calibre Charging Machine will now be able to comfortably 2-shot medium hulls. Missile Launcher "Uranium" will now be able to one-shot medium hulls. 

Then we have the long range turrets, which need a damage increase the least. With 50% more damage, an LCR Railgun, Gauss and Magnum will be able to comfortably one-shot a heavy hull, and they won't need double damage to one-shot a light hull. 

 

The other turrets won't break notable barriers like these would. 

 

2. It's a slap on the face for Viking's Overdrive. 

 

Both Viking and Hornet's Overdrive influence the damage your turret deals. Hornet will always allow you to deal 100% of your damage everywhere you would have been dealing less. Viking directly increases your damage, but that damage can be decreased by any or a combination of double armour, protection modules, and Titan's dome, all of which Hornet ignores.

 

It has been discussed in the past whether or not Hornet's Overdrive was better than Viking's. Hornet gives consistent large damage with normal reload time for 20 seconds while Viking gives significant burst damage for 7 seconds. In the higher modifications, everyone has supplies, and everyone has protection modules. Viking has to brute force its way through the damage reduction while Hornet gets to bypass it. With certain turrets and augments, being able to bypass protections for 20 seconds is better than burst damage for 7 seconds. Viking is countered by Titan's dome while Hornet is not. 

With that in mind, we then take a look at their Overdrive charging parameters. Hornet passively charges more than twice as fast as Viking. Moreover, Hornet is able to chain Overdrives while Viking cannot. Hornet's retention period is twice as long as Viking. Kill a Viking quickly after it activates it and it won't retain much if any charge, and must start the slow build up process again. Kill a Hornet quickly after it activates it and it will retain a lot of charge (40+%). Hornet has all of these things, so the thing it needs least is more damage on top of all this. If 50% more damage is added to Hornet, Viking will be powercrept in the higher ranks. 

 

---

 

Hornet doesn't need more damage, it needs less. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by TheCongoSpider

[cosmic666 1,055]

1 hour ago, TheCongoSpider said:

No, for 2 reasons. 

 

1. Applying a 50% damage increase during the Overdrive will change many interactions in the game that were already skewed in the Hornet's favour. Many fragile barriers will be broken. 

Most importantly, these turrets - Thunder, Striker, (augmented) Railgun, Gauss and Magnum.

 

Giving 50% more damage to Thunder and Striker will allow them to one-shot light hulls, and quickly 2-shot heavy hulls. That's just the Stock version. Then we have the augments. Sledgehammer Rounds and Small Calibre Charging Machine will now be able to comfortably 2-shot medium hulls. Missile Launcher "Uranium" will now be able to one-shot medium hulls. 

Then we have the long range turrets, which need a damage increase the least. With 50% more damage, an LCR Railgun, Gauss and Magnum will be able to comfortably one-shot a heavy hull, and they won't need double damage to one-shot a light hull. 

 

The other turrets won't break notable barriers like these would. 

 

2. It's a slap on the face for Viking's Overdrive. 

 

Both Viking and Hornet's Overdrive influence the damage your turret deals. Hornet will always allow you to deal 100% of your damage everywhere you would have been dealing less. Viking directly increases your damage, but that damage can be decreased by any or a combination of double armour, protection modules, and Titan's dome, all of which Hornet ignores.

 

It has been discussed in the past whether or not Hornet's Overdrive was better than Viking's. Hornet gives consistent large damage with normal reload time for 20 seconds while Viking gives significant burst damage for 7 seconds. In the higher modifications, everyone has supplies, and everyone has protection modules. Viking has to brute force its way through the damage reduction while Hornet gets to bypass it. With certain turrets and augments, being able to bypass protections for 20 seconds is better than burst damage for 7 seconds. Viking is countered by Titan's dome while Hornet is not. 

With that in mind, we then take a look at their Overdrive charging parameters. Hornet passively charges more than twice as fast as Viking. Moreover, Hornet is able to chain Overdrives while Viking cannot. Hornet's retention period is twice as long as Viking. Kill a Viking quickly after it activates it and it won't retain much if any charge, and must start the slow build up process again. Kill a Hornet quickly after it activates it and it will retain a lot of charge (40+%). Hornet has all of these things, so the thing it needs least is more damage on top of all this. If 50% more damage is added to Hornet, Viking will be powercrept in the higher ranks. 

 

---

 

Hornet doesn't need more damage, it needs less. 

As always, well said. HORNET, GAUSS EMP, the hull with the stupid NAME, all of them need a serious nerf.

Of course it's never going to happen, the devs have made a pact with the green eyed MONSTER and will not under any circumstances relinquish their hold on there 3 main cash driven favourites. 

Example of the unbalanced nature of just one of these alts.

Was in a battle yesterday against MAF. He was using the stupid named hull with rico. he attacked our base, got flag and jumped onto the surrounding wall.

I think our smokey took him out, but because he had jumped up onto the wall we had no way to retrieve our flag.

We had their flag but could not cap. How is that fair and balanced.

Simple answer, it's not.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

2 hours ago, cosmic666 said:

the hull with the stupid NAME

Are you talking about Hornet or what?

 

4 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

1. Applying a 50% damage increase during the Overdrive will change many interactions in the game that were already skewed in the Hornet's favour. Many fragile barriers will be broken. 

Most importantly, these turrets - Thunder, Striker, (augmented) Railgun, Gauss and Magnum.

If we apply 50% damage increase.... then Hornet OD will be even more overpowered that it is now. 

4 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Hornet doesn't need more damage, it needs less. 

How about when OD is activated, it disables Double Power's effect? 

[cosmic666 1,055]

9 minutes ago, FrozenRailgun said:

Are you talking about Hornet or what?

 

If we apply 50% damage increase.... then Hornet OD will be even more overpowered that it is now. 

How about when OD is activated, it disables Double Power's effect? 

The ridiculous jumping fiasco with the legal hack.

[Blazing 47]

1 hour ago, cosmic666 said:

The ridiculous jumping fiasco with the legal hack.

HOPPER

[alkyng 3,080]

10 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

No, for 2 reasons. 

 

1. Applying a 50% damage increase during the Overdrive will change many interactions in the game that were already skewed in the Hornet's favour. Many fragile barriers will be broken. 

Most importantly, these turrets - Thunder, Striker, (augmented) Railgun, Gauss and Magnum.

 

Giving 50% more damage to Thunder and Striker will allow them to one-shot light hulls, and quickly 2-shot heavy hulls. That's just the Stock version. Then we have the augments. Sledgehammer Rounds and Small Calibre Charging Machine will now be able to comfortably 2-shot medium hulls. Missile Launcher "Uranium" will now be able to one-shot medium hulls. 

Then we have the long range turrets, which need a damage increase the least. With 50% more damage, an LCR Railgun, Gauss and Magnum will be able to comfortably one-shot a heavy hull, and they won't need double damage to one-shot a light hull. 

 

The other turrets won't break notable barriers like these would. 

 

2. It's a slap on the face for Viking's Overdrive. 

 

Both Viking and Hornet's Overdrive influence the damage your turret deals. Hornet will always allow you to deal 100% of your damage everywhere you would have been dealing less. Viking directly increases your damage, but that damage can be decreased by any or a combination of double armour, protection modules, and Titan's dome, all of which Hornet ignores.

 

It has been discussed in the past whether or not Hornet's Overdrive was better than Viking's. Hornet gives consistent large damage with normal reload time for 20 seconds while Viking gives significant burst damage for 7 seconds. In the higher modifications, everyone has supplies, and everyone has protection modules. Viking has to brute force its way through the damage reduction while Hornet gets to bypass it. With certain turrets and augments, being able to bypass protections for 20 seconds is better than burst damage for 7 seconds. Viking is countered by Titan's dome while Hornet is not. 

With that in mind, we then take a look at their Overdrive charging parameters. Hornet passively charges more than twice as fast as Viking. Moreover, Hornet is able to chain Overdrives while Viking cannot. Hornet's retention period is twice as long as Viking. Kill a Viking quickly after it activates it and it won't retain much if any charge, and must start the slow build up process again. Kill a Hornet quickly after it activates it and it will retain a lot of charge (40+%). Hornet has all of these things, so the thing it needs least is more damage on top of all this. If 50% more damage is added to Hornet, Viking will be powercrept in the higher ranks. 

 

---

 

Hornet doesn't need more damage, it needs less. 

lol you really ignited me with my stupid logic

Agree completely with you, I think it's not a discussable to discuss about hornet OD it's obvious 

Least thing we can say about the hornet OD is stronger than others...

Adding +50% damage to its OD will be a direct slap on Viking OD... and make who still using viking OD maybe need a private session to understand what he want

Viking OD need a new re-balance coz it's UP... what I said will be like a hate from developers to Viking if they did it on Hornet

Btw, I just kidding above, and you didn't gift me a chance immediately kicked me with my jerky logic

[enri_chill 135]

On 9/20/2020 at 4:44 PM, Mrat13 said:

Am I missing something? How can Hornet's OD defeat Dome? Doesn't it just detect enemies, not nullify protections? Just going off the description btw.

Have you been away from the game for a long time?

The hornet OD has been the single most significant cause of imbalance in Tanki over the past year+.

 

[enri_chill 135]

On 9/20/2020 at 5:33 PM, Mrat13 said:

All the description says, is that it allows you to see all enemies on the battlefield. Not that it nullifies all protections. And I think the latter part is definitely the problem.....

For sure...I remember thinking Hornet OD was lame when I read the same description. Then I kept getting killed by rails with my 50% protection and double armor in a medium hull. "Impossible!" I screamed! Nope...just another day in the office for Hornet OD.

Welcome back to Tanki!!