Reduce power of garage supplies

[Rohrmeister 1,536]

Hazels post lead me to a video about "counter play" (link). Idea: if your enemy receives some great amount of power by something... you as the victim should be offered some advantage too (like a tactical advantage, a new possibility to act, a goodie, ..- watch the video for more)

 

( + ) Tanki follows that idea at:

• Balancing damage / reload time / range / special abilities / hull parameters,
  like for each and every turret/hull there exist at least one counter tactic or disadvantage.
  (Ricos & Thunders self damage, Snipers laser and limited view, firebird range, ..)

 

( - ) Tanki follows that idea not at all when it comes to

• [drug abusing people] -vs- [non buyers]

 

Examples how this could effect drugs

 

 

Tthrough power and devastation:

• a double-damage user receives 5..10% of dealt damage as self damage by each shot he makes (turret overheat)
• a tank using DA offers to each and every weapon shooting at it the chance of a critical damamge hit (bypassing DA erffect and so dealing 100% damage and not 50% damage). Visible by smokey critical damage effect.
• Or if both - DD and Nitro - would lead to burning damage from an overheated turret or engine

 

 

by tactical advantages:

• when you are on double Armour, a health pack restores only 50% of your health
• using DD or Nitro for some time makes your tank overheat and glow.. revealing your position on the battlefield
• hitting a tank infront of you by using DD makes the explosion so powerfull, that it inflicts self damage to you
• double armour makes your tank heavier and therefor a little slower (80% if inital speed, use nitro to compensate)
• double armour stores heat energy and therefor the freeze and afterburn effect last more longer
• Tanks on Nitro drive at 130% of their initial speed. After the Nitro is over they should run at 80% of their initial speed due to a required engine cooldown. Timing should ensure that this is not instantly recompensatable by another nitro.

 

I would like to think of more sophistacated tactical advantages.. but the usual drugger tactic is simple "drugs on, cap flag, drive home, heal, continue drive home and deliver flag". And whatever is done to drugs to do some Counter Design.. should effect exactly that.

 

Still I think some of the proposals above could lead drugs to be used more as tactical spice instead of continousl tank-power-multiplyer.

 

And still it has to be handled with care, if drugs are the main source of income for the game.

 

ps: all figures and ideas are ment as inspiration to the community as well as to the devs, and shall not be considered as finall thought through ;)

 

 

[fufususumumu1 240]

Interestingly, that was the argument which I gave earlier (which was heavily down voted -_-). Even I thought that supplies make an otherwise boring game interesting and few of my 'experiments' proved it too. In early stages of my experiment, I concluded that supplies perfectly fit into gameplay. Then I took my experiments to normal battles and told my friends (who are helping me with these experiments) to make alts and analyse situations in normal battles. Turns out that it is much more difficult to keep pace with druggers. Smart Cool Downs should theoretically have kept druggers in 'chains' but the players who drug mindlessly usually keep control over drop zones and hence, are almost always seen with '2-3-4' activated.

This causes a huge imbalance which instead of making gameplay more interesting, causes rage quit.

Drugs would have been more fitting with current gameplay if everyone could use them at nearly same frequency.

On thinking, I concluded that drugs were always meant to be tank enhancers which would turn a near loss into a win at critical moments. Drugs have instead become total game changers. One can now stay in a battle for 5 minutes and realise whether it is futile to remain in battle any longer. In the end, it adversely affect the drugging party too since it was an easy win and they didn't gain any skills from it.

would this mean that drugging takes a bit of skill to acheive? i think that to undo the imbalance, try and control another point yourself, that way you wont be at too much of a disadvantage yourself.

drugging, according to me, being essential to a fun gameplay, is just like 10 cry/1000 cry supply drops. you dont know why it is fun to include, but it just is

also a TOO balanced game is also not the best objective. you can reduce supply strength as much as you want, but removing them entirely is definitely the worst route to take. kind of like comparing with the removal of modifications, i guess? (you get the point)

 

But if everyone is using their supplies than what is the difference without? If both teams have the same advantage then by default it really isn't an advantage any longer. The only thing that changes is more kills during the same time period. However, blowing up all the time doesn't make it more interesting.

 

I just played a few rounds of Serpukhov again and both teams were more or less just using drops. The scores at the end were closer (5-3). By not drugging people had to use strategy and it made it more interesting.

 

After the conclusion some of the other team dropped off and a pack of 5 druggers showed up. Then it got boring really quickly as a Mammoth M3 with Thunder M3 just parked itself in blue base and tore the blue team to pieces. That's not fun. That's boring. Fairly quickly most of blue team quit - which means the battle fund and scores dropped for red team. Their short sightedness drove us off which means overall they get lower scores (40 per capture versus 100) and with fewer opponents it means a smaller battle fund.

 

Just going BOOM BOOM BOOM all the time

probably activating supplies is fun for those USING IT, other than those receiving the damage. same as getting a goldbox, just because one doesnt get the goldbox, doesnt justify the need for removing the goldbox entirely? these are rather different matters, but i hope you see what i am trying to convey... but if the opposition is too strong, then the game loses its funness.

 

Following my logic? Like that? http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showtopic=218280&page=3&do=findComment&comment=3867029

https://youtu.be/BRBcjsOt0_g

and concerning your last 'puzzle', did you see the answer i gave? 

question: after smart cooldowns, do you think tanki is going to continue to look into drug nerfing?

 

I watched the video on the thread you provided, I have to say it was very interesting. It taught me something new about MMOs, even though it was obvious in hindsight. And I can definitely see how that situation would be applied to Tanki, in the case of drugs. The game has given too much power in the hands of people who use drugs, and not considering how it affects players who are drugged against (this and other similar threads should tell you how it affects them!). So it's obvious the wrong choice would be to make supplies stronger in any way, but on the other extreme, removing them or weakening them too much would be dangerous. But I'm just stating the obvious here, when 45 pages of discussion before have said it 1000x better than I could even comprehend.

 

So my hope is that you and dev team can come up with a smart counter-play in the case of drugging, that will bring back player interest, to get this game back to the fun and excitement and balance it once was. And I sincerely hope you take player response from the past 45 pages of this thread into suggestion, there were plenty of neat and thoughtful ideas I saw that would definitely benefit the game, such as surrender option, or increased PRO battle pass length in daily bonus, or just buffing the PRO pass in general. Mostly I saw you were more focused on critiquing the dumber ideas, like decreasing drug strength, and that made me sad. For myself and for the players who face the struggle of imbalanced battles every day.

i think this was written BEFORE smart cooldowns. this is the counter active gameplay that was mentioned in that topic. i guess now, devs are frustrated that we still are not satisfied.

[fufususumumu1 240]

 

• Rico self damage that allows you to trick them into self destruct

Examples how this could effect drugs

 

 

Tthrough power and devastation:

• a double-damage user receives 5..10% of dealt damage as self damage by each shot he makes (turret overheat)
• a tank using DA offers to each and every weapon shooting at it the chance of a critical damamge hit (bypassing DA erffect and so dealing 100% damage and not 50% damage). Visible by smokey critical damage effect.
• Or if both - DD and Nitro - would lead to burning damage from an overheated turret or engine

 

 

by tactical advantages:

• when you are on double Armour, a health pack restores only 50% of your health
• using DD or Nitro for some time makes your tank overheat and glow.. revealing your position on the battlefield
• hitting a tank infront of you by using DD makes the explosion so powerfull, that it inflicts self damage to you
• double armour makes your tank heavier and therefor a little slower (80% if inital speed, use nitro to compensate)
• double armour stores heat energy and therefor the freeze and afterburn effect last more longer
• Tanks on Nitro drive at 130% of their initial speed. After the Nitro is over they should run at 80% of their initial speed due to a required engine cooldown. Timing should ensure that this is not instantly recompensatable by another nitro.

 

I would like to think of more sophistacated tactical advantages.. but the usual drugger tactic is simple "drugs on, cap flag, drive home, heal, continue drive home and deliver flag". And whatever is done to drugs to do some Counter Design.. should effect exactly that.

 

Still I think some of the proposals above could lead drugs to be used more as tactical spice instead of continousl tank-power-multiplyer.

 

And still it has to be handled with care, if drugs are the main source of income for the game.

 

ps: all figures and ideas are ment as inspiration to the community as well as to the devs, and shall not be considered as finall thought through ;)

 

 

your first point on rico is smart, because, frankly, no one has EVER thought about, or put this into words... at least i havent seen any.

this could be a good new tactic against ricos in medium distance, stand at 90 degree inclined wall with cover nearby when facing a rico, and while it fires shots at you, hide behind walls to make the plasma balls redirect itself to your rico opponent.

and the strategies in the spoiler are VERY useful, why havent you mentioned it before? put this in tanki suggestions!

 

another video by extra credits which is related to this topic (more on second half of video)

https://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw?list=PLB9B0CA00461BB187

but because most turrets based on damage given and rate of fire, it might be harder.

what about changing turrets special effects, like bounce effects of rico, and splash damage of thunder?

[beaku 2,656]

would this mean that drugging takes a bit of skill to acheive? i think that to undo the imbalance, try and control another point yourself, that way you wont be at too much of a disadvantage yourself.

drugging, according to me, being essential to a fun gameplay, is just like 10 cry/1000 cry supply drops. you dont know why it is fun to include, but it just is

also a TOO balanced game is also not the best objective. you can reduce supply strength as much as you want, but removing them entirely is definitely the worst route to take. kind of like comparing with the removal of modifications, i guess? (you get the point)

 

Yep. I love supplies and do use them. However, the situations I am referring to are such that the mindless druggers go to great lengths to keep control over drop zones. I would never use 3 first aids just to remain over a DD drop zone. On the other hand, some people do so. These are situations where I just feel hopeless and rage quit the battle.

[Brubook 1,161]

Following my logic? Like that? http://en.tankiforum.com/index.php?showtopic=218280&page=3&do=findComment&comment=3867029

Your logic, in the contest of your comment in this discussion, was your point of X2 power-up drugs versus my point of having them just X1.25 or X1.30 powered up.

 

In your linked post you seem to have my same position (on nerfing drugs), but the situation was different almost 1 year ago (where the 2-3-4 was possible on one side but where drugs were not used so excessively yet, or maybe was the period that they just started with those excesses).

 

I am happy that Tanki has made some steps forward on the right direction and I think there some more little steps to do to make a much nicer game for everyone.

I do think that smart cooldowns is a good idea, and it is an idea in the same direction as my point of view. It has still to be tailored and adjusted a bit. Nothing starts already perfect ... let's make this little step forward to perfection!! :)

[Brubook 1,161]

I tried, as a short experiment, to play a battle totally without supplies. While the gameplay was balanced, (kind of), the round itself was boring, and slower-paced. When you have 2 equally good teams with good equipment, what will offset the balance and make it more interesting? Supplies.

That is the point!

 

What is the difference in a balanced battle on paper? Skills, strategy, tactics, maybe a bit of luck .... and this is what we want!!! We don't need soo excessive devastating power of actual drugs to make the difference!!

 

Once we fight for 3 hours to cap 1 flag on a Noise ... and I can tell you that it was absolutely not boring, was intense, noone gave up on both sides, it was satisfying and it was rewarding for both sides.

A lot of thinking on which weapons and hulls to use, a lot of tentatives, strategic thoughts, runs ... I hate soo long battles myself, but I did enjoy it probably more than any battles I have ever done ... and if I remember correct I lost it!

[Brubook 1,161]

But if everyone is using their supplies than what is the difference without? If both teams have the same advantage then by default it really isn't an advantage any longer. The only thing that changes is more kills during the same time period. However, blowing up all the time doesn't make it more interesting.

 

I just played a few rounds of Serpukhov again and both teams were more or less just using drops. The scores at the end were closer (5-3). By not drugging people had to use strategy and it made it more interesting.

 

After the conclusion some of the other team dropped off and a pack of 5 druggers showed up. Then it got boring really quickly as a Mammoth M3 with Thunder M3 just parked itself in blue base and tore the blue team to pieces. That's not fun. That's boring. Fairly quickly most of blue team quit - which means the battle fund and scores dropped for red team. Their short sightedness drove us off which means overall they get lower scores (40 per capture versus 100) and with fewer opponents it means a smaller battle fund.

 

Just going BOOM BOOM BOOM all the time

This is also to point out:

 

A balanced battle is more fun, more intense, more satifying, gives higher scores and it is more rewarding!!

 

Let's remember that!!!

 

And even if with drugs you can kill more, you will surely do for a shorter time, as devastated opponents will soon leave. Druggers come up with waiting for the end of battle, ending up with less score per unit time overall, get bored and play less time while in front of PC.

[r_priyangshu0 270]

probably activating supplies is fun for those USING IT, other than those receiving the damage. same as getting a goldbox, just because one doesnt get the goldbox, doesnt justify the need for removing the goldbox entirely? these are rather different matters, but i hope you see what i am trying to convey... but if the opposition is too strong, then the game loses its funness.

I hope you understand that gold boxes do not allow you to get more more gold boxes, whereas the earnings boost from supplies can be used to buy more supplies.

[Brubook 1,161]

Ok, here's something I don't understand:

Here, people are complaining about drugs being over-used, pointless, and requiring no skill. Yet there was an update a few months ago which ultimately nerfed supplies hugely. This is of course the Smart Cooldowns. That update got over 200 downvotes!!! And that doesn't even count the ones that canceled out the upvotes. 

Obviously, no matter what happens in the future to the use of supplies, there will be a huge number of people that don't like, do like, hate, or love the update. So please keep this is mind. Not everybody can be pleased at once. If you think that you're just not being listened to, think again, because there are a huge amount of people that don't believe that supplies need a nerf, which can be visible from the reputation on the Smart Cooldowns topic.

 

I hope some of you think this through ;)

Thank you for your comment, genak138

 

Of course, as we are all different, there will always be who likes something and who dislikes it. You mention voting numbers ... I don't know them, but I know that here there are more followers and thinking my same way than your hundreds of downvotes on SCD.

 

Said this, even with some dislikes, I think that our position is "sustainable" and, more important, is going to keep great interest and love for this game in the short-medium period in the future!

 

Let's remember that priority has to be given to customer satisfaction and critical mass. With these 2 factors accomplished everything will follow (I am talking about the economical aspect for Tanki). Disattending these points, the game is surely go on a down-curve till death, and we don't want that!! (at least I don't want it).

[Brubook 1,161]

I watched the video on the thread you provided, I have to say it was very interesting. It taught me something new about MMOs, even though it was obvious in hindsight. And I can definitely see how that situation would be applied to Tanki, in the case of drugs. The game has given too much power in the hands of people who use drugs, and not considering how it affects players who are drugged against (this and other similar threads should tell you how it affects them!). So it's obvious the wrong choice would be to make supplies stronger in any way, but on the other extreme, removing them or weakening them too much would be dangerous. But I'm just stating the obvious here, when 45 pages of discussion before have said it 1000x better than I could even comprehend.

 

So my hope is that you and dev team can come up with a smart counter-play in the case of drugging, that will bring back player interest, to get this game back to the fun and excitement and balance it once was. And I sincerely hope you take player response from the past 45 pages of this thread into suggestion, there were plenty of neat and thoughtful ideas I saw that would definitely benefit the game, such as surrender option, or increased PRO battle pass length in daily bonus, or just buffing the PRO pass in general. Mostly I saw you were more focused on critiquing the dumber ideas, like decreasing drug strength, and that made me sad. For myself and for the players who face the struggle of imbalanced battles every day.

Thank you for comment, Papaya14

 

I quoted this post just for one reason (beside his position): this can be a poster to all that say just "go pro battle".

 

A proverb says "God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth, so that you more listen than talk" (read and write in this case!!)

 

Papaya14 read the posts, thought about it, and wrote intelligent things. He gave his opinion without being useless, silly, less than polite. He said "I am here, this is my position". I appreciate it!

 

Thank you Papaya!!

[Brubook 1,161]

Hazels post lead me to a video about "counter play" (link). Idea: if your enemy receives some great amount of power by something... you as the victim should be offered some advantage too (like a tactical advantage, a new possibility to act, a goodie, ..- watch the video for more)

 

( + ) Tanki follows that idea at:

• Balancing damage / reload time / range / special abilities / hull parameters,

  like for each and every turret/hull there exist at least one counter tactic or disadvantage.

  (Ricos & Thunders self damage, Snipers laser and limited view, firebird range, ..)

 

( - ) Tanki follows that idea not at all when it comes to

• [drug abusing people] -vs- [non buyers]

 

Examples how this could effect drugs

 

 

Tthrough power and devastation:

• a double-damage user receives 5..10% of dealt damage as self damage by each shot he makes (turret overheat)
• a tank using DA offers to each and every weapon shooting at it the chance of a critical damamge hit (bypassing DA erffect and so dealing 100% damage and not 50% damage). Visible by smokey critical damage effect.
• Or if both - DD and Nitro - would lead to burning damage from an overheated turret or engine

 

 

by tactical advantages:

• when you are on double Armour, a health pack restores only 50% of your health
• using DD or Nitro for some time makes your tank overheat and glow.. revealing your position on the battlefield
• hitting a tank infront of you by using DD makes the explosion so powerfull, that it inflicts self damage to you
• double armour makes your tank heavier and therefor a little slower (80% if inital speed, use nitro to compensate)
• double armour stores heat energy and therefor the freeze and afterburn effect last more longer
• Tanks on Nitro drive at 130% of their initial speed. After the Nitro is over they should run at 80% of their initial speed due to a required engine cooldown. Timing should ensure that this is not instantly recompensatable by another nitro.

 

I would like to think of more sophistacated tactical advantages.. but the usual drugger tactic is simple "drugs on, cap flag, drive home, heal, continue drive home and deliver flag". And whatever is done to drugs to do some Counter Design.. should effect exactly that.

 

Still I think some of the proposals above could lead drugs to be used more as tactical spice instead of continousl tank-power-multiplyer.

 

And still it has to be handled with care, if drugs are the main source of income for the game.

 

 

 

ps: all figures and ideas are ment as inspiration to the community as well as to the devs, and shall not be considered as finall thought through  ;)

 

Rohr, did u worked out these things???

 

I think these are just GREAT IDEAS ... they might even be a definitive balancing solution (all of them, not taken singularly).

 

Of course I understand that they should be appropriately studied and tested by devs, but they sound great solutions! Compliments Rohr!

 

PS: sorry for my poor quoting ability!!

[beaku 2,656]

One solution could be to freeze garage drugs for a team if it is winning and gaining score faster. This will give the losing team a fair chance to fight back. Of course, drugs can be reacticivated during Gold Drop.

[Rohrmeister 1,536]

Rohr, did u worked out these things???

I think these are just GREAT IDEAS ... they might even be a definitive balancing solution (all of them, not taken singularly).

 

Of course I understand that they should be appropriately studied and tested by devs, but they sound great solutions! Compliments Rohr!

Yes, I worked them out by myself

 

 

One solution could be to freeze garage drugs for a team if it is winning and gaining score faster. This will give the losing team a fair chance to fight back. Of course, drugs can be reacticivated during Gold Drop.

It could also be a solution to decrease the amount of drop boxes on the winner base + midfied;

and increase the amount of drop boxes on the loosing base of the map

Of course this won't help at all once you reach spawn.-kill situations... but then usually everything is lost anyways.

(For spawnkill situation I would like to see a surrender feature, like I proposed it in the ideas and suggestions topic)

[creeperskelly 1,281]

What if use of supplies simply gave you a temporary upgrade to the next level of the hull or turret you have? For example "armor" would upgrade your tank to M3 if you had M2, etc. "Speed" would stay as it does now - increases your tank and turret turning ability. "Damage" would give you all the characteristics of the next level for your turret. Etc.

 

It also seems odd that Nitro and DD cost the same despite the fact that DD is the most devastating of all. Perhaps the cost of drugs should be redone to reflect what advantage they actually give you.

 

Also to eliminate drugging and spawn killing if you are within a certain distance of spawn points and kill players upon spawn then you either lose points or cause damage to yourself. Of all the bad sportsmanship this one really needs to stop.

[m6ttetu 288]

btw that's why I play in PRO battles. 

[creeperskelly 1,281]

Last night I got a free Pro Pass for a day. During the course of several hours there were NO Pro Battles that weren't either Parkour or XP.

 

Pro Pass should be required for anyone who chooses use drugs consistently.

[Brubook 1,161]

What if use of supplies simply gave you a temporary upgrade to the next level of the hull or turret you have? For example "armor" would upgrade your tank to M3 if you had M2, etc. "Speed" would stay as it does now - increases your tank and turret turning ability. "Damage" would give you all the characteristics of the next level for your turret. Etc.

 

Well, you came up with my same proposals (see posts 1 and 2 of this long discussion)! :)

They are fair and logical!! And they are somehow close to that +25-30% I am proposing!

[Brubook 1,161]

Last night I got a free Pro Pass for a day. During the course of several hours there were NO Pro Battles that weren't either Parkour or XP.

 

Pro Pass should be required for anyone who chooses use drugs consistently.

Pro battles are much less now (close to zero apart parkour XP/BP) because the monthly pro pass sale is expiring. So we are back to the original problem i.e. pass too expensive overall, too expensive for what it gives (few pro battles to play in) and just few pro battles to play! ... not talking about increased problem for low ranks!

[Legolover3 91]

You referred us to this post of yours-sorry, couldn't get the date right. It reverted back because I quoted your post in this thread. 

This might be a little extreme example, but in this case you will feel exactly what everybody else does. Only top buyers will be able to afford these x3 drugs and they will crash you superfast even if you use your drugs all you want. Will it be fun then?

Only top buyers are capable of buying insane amounts of supplies already. This example of yours only takes the profit-based mentality one step further. I think that the 10x drugs logic was that if you're already giving buyers an advantage, why don't make them pay a whole bunch and let them buy 10x drugs, buy a win, etc. That would give Alternativa even bigger profits.

 

*cough* reductio ad absurdum *cough*

 

Normal and legal argumentation tactic, I might add. Especially when expressed in Latin. :P

[creeperskelly 1,281]

This is a battle full of spawn campers. They have a substantial lead but they are still drugging and spawn camping on blue making it impossible to even begin to mount any defense. Just totally senseless.

 

[creeperskelly 1,281]

 

 

 

This guy always has 2 or 3 drugs enabled. Not drops but using his own personal supply to buy the round and spawn camp.

[Papaya14 481]

I think a nice little addition would be supply icons next to usernames in the player list when you press TAB. And they only appear when a player activates them. That way you can know who is drugging, and when. It's a sort of "name and shame" kind of thing.

[creeperskelly 1,281]

It's hard to get the spawn campers but here's another:

 

 

Does it pay to drug? Here's the final:

 

[Brubook 1,161]

This is a battle full of spawn campers. They have a substantial lead but they are still drugging and spawn camping on blue making it impossible to even begin to mount any defense. Just totally senseless.

 

I surely wouldn't enter a battle like this ... on any side! You can see that at least the 2 top players abuse of drugs and they did that all game, as probably half of the blue team just joined. That is probably because 6 blue players kind of got enough of red drugging probably. If you add that all this happened in the first 20 minutes of battle, you realise that it is a frustrating and compromised battle. Assured no fun in there, on both sides!

Entering this battle a normal player will be a spectator (both sides) and quite frustrated of continuing blowing off (blue side). NO FUN

 

I want to underline that this situation is now more than average, I mean that you see it really TOO OFTEN!

:)

[kayitsiz 621]

I surely wouldn't enter a battle like this ... on any side! You can see that at least the 2 top players abuse of drugs and they did that all game, as probably half of the blue team just joined. That is probably because 6 blue players kind of got enough of red drugging probably. If you add that all this happened in the first 20 minutes of battle, you realise that it is a frustrating and compromised battle. Assured no fun in there, on both sides!

Entering this battle a normal player will be a spectator (both sides) and quite frustrated of continuing blowing off (blue side). NO FUN

 

I want to underline that this situation is now more than average, I mean that you see it really TOO OFTEN!

:)

Make it like every game! Other results are more rare!