category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Magnums are always behind the walls in Desert.

 

It is a rare game in 2024 w/o a Magnum in the corner behind the big dividing wall.

 

On Future on the roofs. 

 

Barda in the back corner and behind the corner wall segment on the raised area.

 

It would be quicker to name the maps you do not see them all the time.  Sepherov and Tribute are the only ones that come to mind where you might not see them as often.

 

----- 

 

I do not look at the score screen after the battle 70% of the time even to lok at my own stats. I sure do not look to try to find out how high a score Magnums got. There is no way a few players;' anecdotal stories will give an accurate indication   of how often magnums get the top score in a given game.

 

In order to do any sort of meaningful analysis you need two things: all the raw data, and formal training in statistical analysis. That is quite the precise science  Powerful stats software certainly speeds up the proceess. :)

Edited November 6, 2017 by LittleWillie

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

I think Magnum benefits mainly from 2 two separate but connected things: the one thing is having hiding places and shoot indirectly. The other element is shooting from higher elevations than the others, so covering the roof is an important factor for Magnum domination. Magnums just need to drop some 5% bombs down with a 0° angle or for special shots with 65-80°. Yes, some players can attack the Magnums up there, but usually they are only a small number and Magnum usually has more firepower is able to defend itself and harass the full enemy base.

 

If you can manage to get 2-3 Magnums together with one Isida on top of the middle roof, the domination will start. If you play with turned on overdrives and if anyone up there activates overdrive once the other team has not many overdrives active, usually the game is gone then. 

 

Some other Magnum players and me often are at the top places of the scoreboard. I do not use it so much to solely camp but also to advance forward in order to support an attack and basically as a mid-range weapon but with level differences in between. You can hit more precise while hiding because of the short distance and the level differences. If enemy tanks are coming up, you can also use your tank to throw them off the building or if you fail with it you can jump to the lower level, then shoot and kill him and return to the higher level, because he couldn't shoot to lower levels directly. Advancing and bombing down on the enemy base on sight feels like power levelling  :rolleyes:  

 

This will depend on how much Magnum players are able to use splash damage, but of course you're right and that is a good option.

1. Overdrives can tip the balance of any battle.  The team with an advantage will get more overdrives, giving them an even greater advantage.  It isn't unique to Magnum.

 

2.  Teams on the roof aren't that hard to take out.  A single Shaft on the corner opposite the beach (the raised hills) can clear the roof.  With a little drugging the result is guaranteed.

 

3.  Two Shafts with an Isida is potent. Two Thunders with an Isida are deadly.  Isida can amp up anything.

 

4.  Yes, the firing angle is an issue, but even previously, we've seen Rico harass defenses from the roof this way.

 

5.  Ah yes, here's the issue.  The fact that a Magnum can operate ground-level like a railgun-thunder hybrid.  This isn't realistic.  In addition to increasing reload time, the horizontal aiming speed of the gun should be drastically slowed.  Artillery isn't a straight-fire carriage.  By exploiting this aspect of gameplay- it's probably why you end up with such high scores. ;)

[Tani_S 736]

 

 

1. Overdrives can tip the balance of any battle.  The team with an advantage will get more overdrives, giving them an even greater advantage.  It isn't unique to Magnum.

 

2.  Teams on the roof aren't that hard to take out.  A single Shaft on the corner opposite the beach (the raised hills) can clear the roof.  With a little drugging the result is guaranteed.

 

3.  Two Shafts with an Isida is potent. Two Thunders with an Isida are deadly.  Isida can amp up anything.

 

4.  Yes, the firing angle is an issue, but even previously, we've seen Rico harass defenses from the roof this way.

 

5.  Ah yes, here's the issue.  The fact that a Magnum can operate ground-level like a railgun-thunder hybrid.  This isn't realistic.  In addition to increasing reload time, the horizontal aiming speed of the gun should be drastically slowed.  Artillery isn't a straight-fire carriage.  By exploiting this aspect of gameplay- it's probably why you end up with such high scores. ;)

 

 

Magnum can shoot at enemies before they are able to uncover the hiding places when they are coming from flanks, like the plateau or the beach. So basically Magnum can still use hiding places in Rio. If we consider a 1v1 situation with a Shaft on the beach and Magnum on roof I would rather expect a Magnum to win, maybe due to Shaft's limited ability for vertical aim, Magnum could hide and that there are more Shaft modules available in the game, but Shaft is indeed one major opponent of Magnum. Using Magnum as a mid-range gun doesn't necessarily mean, that I shoot in straight fire, because I think I use an angle of 35°-45° and a power of 5%-15% most of the time, except of situations when I stand directly above the enemy base and take 0°/5%-10%. Rico is very strong too, but I don't think it is able to wipe out a base within seconds when it is not attacked. A little tip for Rio: if you are on the beach and face an enemy Magnum, then go under the palms. They are pretty effective in holding off the bombs from above  ^_^

[GunslingerMongoose 198]

I'm assuming that because thats the scenario he gave me. he said they have 50% modules so of course i answered what would happen if they all have 50% modules.

 

and he said that they'd be healing each other. so either one you shoot will get healed. this isnt even a train. did he say it was?

 

now little boy... what group were you saying i think i have, i already know i dont have any group. by group did you mean my clan? why, are you an alternate account of my supreme commander or something?

When there are more than 1 Isida, there are two thing they will be doing: Forming an Isida train, or, alternatively, soloing far away from each other. I deal with plenty of DA drugging, Shaft protected Isida's at my rank, specifically the Stinger kit cancer. My Shaft is upgraded 2/10, so it can oneshot an M2 light hull that's stock. M2+ however I cannot oneshot if it has protections. This is generally the case. If I see two Stingers on the enemy team and they're in a train, I shoot the one in the rear, then the one in the front panics and I then kill him. If they're far away from each other, on a map like, say, Highways, then I call them by one nickname: Prey. They're incredibly simple to kill due to lack of range, meaning they can't attack you nor heal their allies, and they almost always use light or medium hulls. Oh and if you say "Well what about M2+ medium hulls", I also sit near a DD and make sure there's always one nearby that I can pick it up and kill the sorry bastard crossing my bridges.

 

And you are STILL assuming they all have specifically SHAFT MODULES. The original post said 50% of "whatever the most popular turret is" not specifically "50% Shaft protection"

Edited November 6, 2017 by SwiftSmoky
Please refrain from using offensive language

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

You are quickly proving yourself to be a massive prick but anyways, when there are more than 1 Isida, there are two thing they will be doing: Forming an Isida train, or, alternatively, soloing far away from each other. I deal with plenty of DA drugging, Shaft protected Isida's at my rank, specifically the Stinger kit cancer. My Shaft is upgraded 2/10, so it can oneshot an M2 light hull that's stock. M2+ however I cannot oneshot if it has protections. This is generally the case. If I see two Stingers on the enemy team and they're in a train, I shoot the one in the rear, then the one in the front panics and I then kill him. If they're far away from each other, on a map like, say, Highways, then I call them by one nickname: Prey. They're incredibly simple to kill due to lack of range, meaning they can't attack you nor heal their allies, and they almost always use light or medium hulls. Oh and if you say "Well what about M2+ medium hulls", I also sit near a DD and make sure there's always one nearby that I can pick it up and kill the sorry bastard crossing my bridges. 

that is your problem mister

 

 

for the last time little boy, i was talking  to ghost guns about legend battles, where isidas on hornets with 50% protection and double armour can survive a fully charged shot from a shaft with heavy capacitors on double damage.

[GunslingerMongoose 198]

that is your problem mister

 

 

for the last time little boy, i was talking to ghost guns about legend battles, where isidas on hornets with 50% protection and double armour can survive a fully charged shot from a shaft with heavy capacitors on double damage.

Read the edited post, and also he said that the Isida had DD not DA. Edited November 6, 2017 by SwiftSmoky
Please refrain from using offensive language

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

Read the edited post, and also he said that the Isida had DD not DA.

he said that the isida you shoot will be healed by another isida with DD. and in legend battles most people use shaft modules. even if they don't use shaft modules you kill them onec and they see they're vulnerable to shaft so they change to shaft modules.

[SwiftSmoky 8,445]

@GunslingerMongoose, please don't turn this discussion into a fight. There's no problem with heated discussions but don't swear and insult plz.

[GunslingerMongoose 198]

@GunslingerMongoose, please don't turn this discussion into a fight. There's no problem with heated discussions but don't swear and insult plz.

I'm sorry, Swift, but I refuse to discuss something with someone who is so adamant in their idea that what they say is correct when there are clearly dozens of other variables that are being totally ignored because 1 situation was described to a T.

 

I truly do apologize but I'm just not going to discuss this topic further. He's too stubborn to see something from multiple angles and appears to think that rank determines how much knowledge you have because "Oh I play with legends and if they see you using a shaft THEY ALL SWITCH TO SHAFT MODULES". Because every Legend rank totally has the time to spend, what is it, nearly 500k on a 50% module? And then they have the funds to spend it on not only one but all 19 non-LGC Shaft modules? To that I say to gtfo of town.

 

Sorry but just... Gah.

[wolverine848 13,097]

that is your problem mister

 

 

for the last time little boy, i was talking  to ghost guns about legend battles, where isidas on hornets with 50% protection and double armour can survive a fully charged shot from a shaft with heavy capacitors on double damage.

So assume it's basically M4 all around - cuz you are not getting 50% protections unless you are close to M4...

 

The two isidas healing each other will still die from two shots from Shaft + pretty much any other long-ranged weapon.

(all supplies will cancel each other out)

 

Was in a battle where other team was comprised of 40%-50% isidas. They kept healing each other. 

But they lost because they were vulnerable to...

- ranged weapons - they took a lot of damage approaching their objective.

- they can't heal and attack at same time efficiently

- mines.  They had to pass through mines to get into strategic places. 

By same token since they were leaving base to CP or heal while advancing, mines were not useful to them.

 

It's even worse in CTF with too many isidas - easier to defend one flag that an isida group is trying to storm. And the bigger the map the more you can damage them on the way.

[T-34-3m 360]

Is this still going on? This isn't like in TF2 where two Medics can chain each other, Isida's an attacker now anyways.

[maiko750 0]

Why did isida's self-healing ability was removed? Now it is not as good as it was. 

[Maf 32,300]

Why did isida's self-healing ability was removed? Now it is not as good as it was. 

Topic merged

 

Developers decided that self-healing was too overpowered and always caused disbalance in games, no matter how it was changed. So instead Isida got a massive damage and healing buff to compensate for removal of self-healing.

[LOLKILLERTOTHEDEATH 1,921]

I feel that it needs a buff. It cannot compete with other M2s or other M3s and is virtually useless (except as a collecors item)

 

Perhaps a 20% increase in damage and 5% faster reloading speed?

[Maf 32,300]

I feel that it needs a buff. It cannot compete with other M2s or other M3s and is virtually useless (except as a collecors item)

 

Perhaps a 20% increase in damage and 5% faster reloading speed?

Topic merged

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

Got some time to kill so I thought I'd just put out what a lot of players are thinking (at least for M3):

 

Firebird- very strong in close range, but with maps being expanded for 10 v 10 there's a lot of room for retreat.  

Verdict: Balanced.

 

Isida: Damage is higher than Firebird, and does not lose damage over range.  It gains a lot of xp from healing as well, which should be its primary function, but it's now a good idea to use Isida as an offensive weapon.

Verdict: Too strong

 

Freeze- even in low ranks it isn't that hard to counter as its damage isn't ridiculous.  In high ranks the freezing effect simply takes too long to take hold and there is no point.  This is why freezes tend to have the lowest d/l and an Isida or Firebird is almost always a better option.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Hammer- balanced.

Thunder-balanced.

Twins - balanced.

Ricochet- strong with impact but loses potency in drug-wars. Balanced.

 

Smoky- works well on any map.  Can usually beat any other turret in a 1 v 1.  Dishes out tremendous amounts of damage and the impact is maddening.  

Verdict: Too strong.

 

Striker- Salvo is nice and works well in certain situations, however, arcade rockets are far too easy to dodge.  Since they're the primary mode of fire, they should be a bit more effective.  Thunder is often a better option and striker is very team-dependent.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Vulcan- feels like you are "tickling enemies." Far too much time for opponents to run away.  Damage at range is so weak they can practically sit and wait with you firing at them nonstop.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Shaft-you can easily escape their vision to sneak up on them, and the turret is rather team-dependent. Verdict: Balanced.

Railgun- Slightly too weak, but primarily because of the abundance of protections against it.  Worth it at least for format battles.

 

Magnum- splash damage is tremendous. Operates well in close range as well as long range.  Ability to camp at the very corner of the map and disrupt an entire defensive setup.  

Verdict: Too damn strong.

Edited November 13, 2017 by r_I_already_won0

[omarhero1 401]

I disagree about Freeze and Smoky, in my opinion i think its the other way around.

Freeze has more energy than firebird yet same DPS and also freezing effect which is too powerful in CTF.

Smoky, i have no idea what criteria u based ur verdict upon, its by far the weakest turret currently, and actually Smoky LOSES to any turret at the same modification. I have pretty much a good experience with Smoky and i certainly never win in 1 vs 1 situations.

[T-34-3m 360]

Yeah I guess someone who mains light hulls would find Smoky annoying or OP. To a Magnum it's like a bank robber charing an armed policeman with a supersoaker.

[Hammy15 191]

I also think it depends on which ranks you play. On the lower ranks smoky is good and you can play very well with it but on the higher ranks it is too weak.

[Hez_DarkLord 103]

Vulcan is usable once m4 and if you pair it with a titan with good fire proc. Have consistently gotten positive kds in dms and over 3.00s in ctf battles with it. I do agree that smoky is really weak in these ranks and higher... usable only for light format esports matches. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Hez_DarkLord

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

I disagree about Freeze and Smoky, in my opinion i think its the other way around.

Freeze has more energy than firebird yet same DPS and also freezing effect which is too powerful in CTF.

Smoky, i have no idea what criteria u based ur verdict upon, its by far the weakest turret currently, and actually Smoky LOSES to any turret at the same modification. I have pretty much a good experience with Smoky and i certainly never win in 1 vs 1 situations.

However it's important to realize "strong" and "weak" are relative terms.  Once everything becomes "weak" well that then becomes the new balanced.

 

I've heard in succession that Rico is weak in drugwars, Smoky is weak, Thunder is weak, Railgun is weak, Hammer is weak (!?) , Striker is weak, and Vulcan is weak.  Even heard Freeze. 

 

Now, Smoky on drugs is a pretty nasty turret- there's not much doubt about that.   And Fire's afterburn more than makes up for the extra fuel freeze gets.

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

hammer is the best there is, the best there ever will be!! I'm happy you classified it as balanced and most people don't think it's OP, this means it probably won't get nerfed

[Best_of_thunder_2015 1,354]

What's going on here ? 

 

me:-

 

i am saying this because i see magnum users stay edge of map and hunting us a lot. 

they use their turrets as thunder in close range by keeping at 10 degree it becomes thunderX3 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Best_of_thunder_2015

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Got some time to kill so I thought I'd just put out what a lot of players are thinking (at least for M3):

 

Firebird- very strong in close range, but with maps being expanded for 10 v 10 there's a lot of room for retreat.  

Verdict: Balanced.

 

Isida: Damage is higher than Firebird, and does not lose damage over range.  It gains a lot of xp from healing as well, which should be its primary function, but it's now a good idea to use Isida as an offensive weapon.

Verdict: Too strong

 

Freeze- even in low ranks it isn't that hard to counter as its damage isn't ridiculous.  In high ranks the freezing effect simply takes too long to take hold and there is no point.  This is why freezes tend to have the lowest d/l and an Isida or Firebird is almost always a better option.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Hammer- balanced.

Thunder-balanced.

Twins - balanced.

Ricochet- strong with impact but loses potency in drug-wars. Balanced.

 

Smoky- works well on any map.  Can usually beat any other turret in a 1 v 1.  Dishes out tremendous amounts of damage and the impact is maddening.  

Verdict: Too strong.

 

Striker- Salvo is nice and works well in certain situations, however, arcade rockets are far too easy to dodge.  Since they're the primary mode of fire, they should be a bit more effective.  Thunder is often a better option and striker is very team-dependent.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Vulcan- feels like you are "tickling enemies." Far too much time for opponents to run away.  Damage at range is so weak they can practically sit and wait with you firing at them nonstop.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Shaft-you can easily escape their vision to sneak up on them, and the turret is rather team-dependent. Verdict: Balanced.

Railgun- Slightly too weak, but primarily because of the abundance of protections against it.  Worth it at least for format battles.

 

Magnum- splash damage is tremendous. Operates well in close range as well as long range.  Ability to camp at the very corner of the map and disrupt an entire defensive setup.  

Verdict: Too damn strong.

You are posting your own opinions which is great.  But please do not say you are speaking for others.

[micah3 61]

Smoky: Not overpowered, only performs well if it is used well. In the right hands it is a powerful turret.

Railgun: Powerful, but not overly powerful. Has high piercing damage which is balanced by long reloads and a charge up before firing.

Thunder: Powerful, has splash radius and high damage. When fully upgraded it rivals the reload speed of an M0 or M1 smoky making this turret arguably imbalanced. Also seems to be a favorite for druggers.

Shaft: Balanced. Has great damage and pin-point accuracy which is balanced by lengthy reloads and mediocre damage while firing in arcade mode.

Vulcan: Balanced. Has unlimited firing duration and best rate of fire of any turret in the game, it is also very hard to throw off aim. However can take self-damage and deals very low damage per shot.

Hammer: So-So. Is weak at range as it can only deal very minor damage. And the reload of the entire magazine is fairly long. However, if all pellets hit the target the Hammer can deal an unbalanced amount of damage three times over. And with Double Power activated Hammer can 1 hit kill full HP enemies.

Twins: Debatable. Twins can fire unlimited amounts of time and throws off the aim of your opponents. However twins has very poor firing range and targets hit near the max firing range will take barely any damage. Also Twins received splash damage for no reason at all, which only makes it more questionably overpowered.

Ricochet:Inconclusive. While Ricochet has a very limited firing time, it deals about the damage of smoky for each orb which it fires quickly. Its projectiles also Ricochet off buildings (which isn't really a balance issue). However, the problem is that Ricochet can damage enemies its projectiles even go near by.

Isida: Underpowered. While Isida used to be able to self-heal while doing damage which made it a very capable turret of defending itself. This feature was removed for no reason at all and now Isida has no special effect to use to its own advantage in battle. Now Isida is useless compared to Firebird and Freeze.

Firebird: Variable. Firebird is capable of dealing massive amounts of damage within short amounts of time and can deal burn damage after the attack ends. But the burn damage done by the M1 is rather minimal, and non-existent at M0. But at M2 and M3, firebird's burn damage is broken. 

Freeze: Questionable. Can slow down targets to prevent them from escaping, the freezing process is rather slow however.

Striker: Please kill me now. Striker has massive damage, large burst radius, projectiles that lock on, a 4 round magazine that can basically vaporize anything. And when it has a Double Power bonus in effect, it can clip entire M3 Heavy hulls from full HP to nothing.

Magnum: [insert Meme Here] Has massive damage and undeniably broken splash radius and can damage anything remotely close to where its shells land. It can also fire over cover. Has no horizontal turret traverse and you can be obliterated by anything smart enough to flank you. To get a direct hit in this tank you must master physics, each aiming process is an algebraic equation.

Edited November 13, 2017 by micah3