category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

You are posting your own opinions which is great.  But please do not say you are speaking for others.

Surprising.  It was more an amalgamation of the attitudes and opinions of many players than my own observations.  Of course opinions will differ but I have seen these opinions and views expressed multiple times on the Forum, in battles, and in the Chat.

[wolverine848 13,097]

 

 

Smoky: Not overpowered, only performs well if it is used well. In the right hands it is a powerful turret.

Railgun: Powerful, but not overly powerful. Has high piercing damage which is balanced by long reloads and a charge up before firing.

Thunder: Powerful, has splash radius and high damage. When fully upgraded it rivals the reload speed of an M0 or M1 smoky making this turret arguably imbalanced. Also seems to be a favorite for druggers.

Shaft: Balanced. Has great damage and pin-point accuracy which is balanced by lengthy reloads and mediocre damage while firing in arcade mode.

Vulcan: Balanced. Has unlimited firing duration and best rate of fire of any turret in the game, it is also very hard to throw off aim. However can take self-damage and deals very low damage per shot.

Hammer: So-So. Is weak at range as it can only deal very minor damage. And the reload of the entire magazine is fairly long. However, if all pellets hit the target the Hammer can deal an unbalanced amount of damage three times over. And with Double Power activated Hammer can 1 hit kill full HP enemies.

Twins: Debatable. Twins can fire unlimited amounts of time and throws off the aim of your opponents. However twins has very poor firing range and targets hit near the max firing range will take barely any damage. Also Twins received splash damage for no reason at all, which only makes it more questionably overpowered.

Ricochet:Inconclusive. While Ricochet has a very limited firing time, it deals about the damage of smoky for each orb which it fires quickly. Its projectiles also Ricochet off buildings (which isn't really a balance issue). However, the problem is that Ricochet can damage enemies its projectiles even go near by.

Isida: Underpowered. While Isida used to be able to self-heal while doing damage which made it a very capable turret of defending itself. This feature was removed for no reason at all and now Isida has no special effect to use to its own advantage in battle. Now Isida is useless compared to Firebird and Freeze.

Firebird: Variable. Firebird is capable of dealing massive amounts of damage within short amounts of time and can deal burn damage after the attack ends. But the burn damage done by the M1 is rather minimal, and non-existent at M0. But at M2 and M3, firebird's burn damage is broken. 

Freeze: Questionable. Can slow down targets to prevent them from escaping, the freezing process is rather slow however.

Striker: Please kill me now. Striker has massive damage, large burst radius, projectiles that lock on, a 4 round magazine that can basically vaporize anything. And when it has a Double Power bonus in effect, it can clip entire M3 Heavy hulls from full HP to nothing.

Magnum: [insert Meme Here] Has massive damage and undeniably broken splash radius and can damage anything remotely close to where its shells land. It can also fire over cover. Has no horizontal turret traverse and you can be obliterated by anything smart enough to flank you. To get a direct hit in this tank you must master physics, each aiming process is an algebraic equation.

Much I agree with.

 

However, not sure of ...

 

Twins+splash... most automatically buy the alt when they can so they don't self-damage. Did you mean this as a plus or minus?

 

Isida:  The self-heal was offset by giving it the highest DPS of any turret. Wish the energy pool lasted a bit longer for a down-tweak in damage but I find it fairly balanced now. Ironic in that there were ~ a ba-jillion posts stating how OP it was.

 

Striker: May have massive damage with the 4 missiles - but you need to get a lock-on to use that function.  Need a degree in astro-physics to keep any tank faster than a mammoth in the cross-hairs long enough. ( Or someone driving straight at you for 3+ seconds.)

[omarhero1 401]

Striker is lethal when used in Deck9 for the red team.

[Tani_S 736]

​

Got some time to kill so I thought I'd just put out what a lot of players are thinking (at least for M3):

 

Firebird- very strong in close range, but with maps being expanded for 10 v 10 there's a lot of room for retreat.  

Verdict: Balanced.

 

Isida: Damage is higher than Firebird, and does not lose damage over range.  It gains a lot of xp from healing as well, which should be its primary function, but it's now a good idea to use Isida as an offensive weapon.

Verdict: Too strong

 

Freeze- even in low ranks it isn't that hard to counter as its damage isn't ridiculous.  In high ranks the freezing effect simply takes too long to take hold and there is no point.  This is why freezes tend to have the lowest d/l and an Isida or Firebird is almost always a better option.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Hammer- balanced.

Thunder-balanced.

Twins - balanced.

Ricochet- strong with impact but loses potency in drug-wars. Balanced.

 

Smoky- works well on any map.  Can usually beat any other turret in a 1 v 1.  Dishes out tremendous amounts of damage and the impact is maddening.  

Verdict: Too strong.

 

Striker- Salvo is nice and works well in certain situations, however, arcade rockets are far too easy to dodge.  Since they're the primary mode of fire, they should be a bit more effective.  Thunder is often a better option and striker is very team-dependent.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Vulcan- feels like you are "tickling enemies." Far too much time for opponents to run away.  Damage at range is so weak they can practically sit and wait with you firing at them nonstop.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Shaft-you can easily escape their vision to sneak up on them, and the turret is rather team-dependent. Verdict: Balanced.

Railgun- Slightly too weak, but primarily because of the abundance of protections against it.  Worth it at least for format battles.

 

Magnum- splash damage is tremendous. Operates well in close range as well as long range.  Ability to camp at the very corner of the map and disrupt an entire defensive setup.  

Verdict: Too damn strong.

Pretty nice article  :) I would basically agree with everything, except of Smoky, Twins and Rico tho. Smoky is too weak and Rico and Twins are performing too good compared to others (esp. with their M1 alts). I would classify Freeze as balanced too. I think there are also more Fire modules around than Freeze modules.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Surprising.  It was more an amalgamation of the attitudes and opinions of many players than my own observations.  Of course opinions will differ but I have seen these opinions and views expressed multiple times on the Forum, in battles, and in the Chat.

Well that was your opinion on your reading of some forum posts. It is at very best a vast over simpification. None of us are in position cite consensus opinion.  I for one have read the some posts and would not have made the same post as you. It

[T-34-3m 360]

Easy, have the Magnum focus on the Titan/Twins after it's DA wears off and POW! One DD should humble it down real fast.

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

Well that was your opinion on your reading of some forum posts. It is at very best a vast over simpification. None of us are in position cite consensus opinion.  I for one have read the some posts and would not have made the same post as you. It

Oh of course.  Never said I spoke for "most" or the "majority" or the "consensus."  Merely stated that this is what a lot of players believe- that's objectively true. 

 

There's a lot of feedback coming in and it is great. :)  Changes- Smoky: Balanced.   Twins: Too strong.

 

But here's a question: When evaluating a turret, do you consider the user to be always on drugs?  Of course the drugging Rico will win against the semi-drugging Smoky.  

[omarhero1 401]

Also non drugging Rico will take out non-drugging Smoky in no time =)

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In my opinion most turret are quite balanced, the following ones are the most OP  Shaft, Magnum and of course Rico.

Smoky...meh R.i.P we have nothing to do but to grieve for it.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Also non drugging Rico will take out non-drugging Smoky in no time =)

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In my opinion most turret are quite balanced, the following ones are the most OP  Shaft, Magnum and of course Rico.

Smoky...meh R.i.P we have nothing to do but to grieve for it.

Other side is... at high levels you need to consider Protection Modules - 50% might change the outcome.

Supplies cancel each other so disregard DD & DA.

 

M4 Ricco does ~ dmg 350/shot.  has 14 shots?  So would do 4900 dmg, but divide by 2 for 2450/clip.  Can't kill a medium hull.

 

Question is, can an M4 smoky facing same 50% protection kill a medium hull before Ricco can recharge enough to finish off smoky?

Don't know recharge rates so can't answer this question.

Smky also has a range advantage - though not great. If it can one or two shots in before Ricco gets optimal battle is a bit closer.

 

But yes - overall I feel smky has been nerfed a bit too much.  My Smky & Ricco are roughly same m-level and I find Ricco more effective.

[omarhero1 401]

Other side is... at high levels you need to consider Protection Modules - 50% might change the outcome.

Supplies cancel each other so disregard DD & DA.

 

M4 Ricco does ~ dmg 350/shot.  has 14 shots?  So would do 4900 dmg, but divide by 2 for 2450/clip.  Can't kill a medium hull.

 

Question is, can an M4 smoky facing same 50% protection kill a medium hull before Ricco can recharge enough to finish off smoky?

Don't know recharge rates so can't answer this question.

Smky also has a range advantage - though not great. If it can one or two shots in before Ricco gets optimal battle is a bit closer.

 

But yes - overall I feel smky has been nerfed a bit too much.  My Smky & Ricco are roughly same m-level and I find Ricco more effective.

Come on Wolverine, i would never expect this talk from an experienced smoky user like you :/

Ok let me tell you what i think based on a daily involvement in M4 battles.

 

-First, Smoky protections are as popular as Rico's, many many players have Griffon T-D maxed out.

 

-Why would M4 Rico destroy a medium hill with 50% protection using one clip ? what's the point of having protection then? but nevertheless, Rico does a considerable damage even when i have Clay equipped, it takes out 2450 of my 3000 HP ! leaving me with nearly 500 HP -Keep in mind that clay offers 50% Rico protection-.

 

-To answer your question Definitely NO ! M4 Smoky takes 12 shots to destroy lets say M4 Viking with 50% protection. so 11*1.5=16.5 seconds.

Rico is capable of finishing it off using one clip and 2 additional shots which takes around 6-7 seconds.

 

-I don't know how Smoky has a range advantage ? i mean yea i can hit targets faraway from me but the damage inflicted is around 50-60 :wacko: which simulates tickling them. While Rico with MFS alt can reach very long ranges with no drop in terms of damage  B) .  

 

-Rico has less impact force than Smoky, but the higher rate of fire completely makes up for it.

 

You have to keep driving back and forth to dodge Rico shots coz once it locks on u you won't have much to do.

 

So just to recap i'd advise anyone to stick with Rico until Smoky gets a real overall improvement. 

 

P.S: I play both Pro and non-pro battles but mostly Pro with no durgs.

I have both turrets fully MU'ed -M4-.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Come on Wolverine, i would never expect this talk from an experienced smoky user like you :/

Ok let me tell you what i think based on a daily involvement in M4 battles.

 

 

 

-First, Smoky protections are as popular as Rico's, many many players have Griffon T-D maxed out.

 

-Why would M4 Rico destroy a medium hill with 50% protection using one clip ? what's the point of having protection then? but nevertheless, Rico does a considerable damage even when i have Clay equipped, it takes out 2450 of my 3000 HP ! leaving me with nearly 500 HP -Keep in mind that clay offers 50% Rico protection-.

 

-To answer your question Definitely NO ! M4 Smoky takes 12 shots to destroy lets say M4 Viking with 50% protection. so 11*1.5=16.5 seconds.

Rico is capable of finishing it off using one clip and 2 additional shots which takes around 6-7 seconds.

 

-I don't know how Smoky has a range advantage ? i mean yea i can hit targets faraway from me but the damage inflicted is around 50-60 :wacko: which simulates tickling them. While Rico with MFS alt can reach very long ranges with no drop in terms of damage  B) .  

 

-Rico has less impact force than Smoky, but the higher rate of fire completely makes up for it.

 

You have to keep driving back and forth to dodge Rico shots coz once it locks on u you won't have much to do.

 

So just to recap i'd advise anyone to stick with Rico until Smoky gets a real overall improvement. 

 

P.S: I play both Pro and non-pro battles but mostly Pro with no durgs.

I have both turrets fully MU'ed -M4-.

 

 

Not sure you read my whole post.

 

I was assuming 50% protections all around making it even.  And I was posing questions - turrets that limited ammo struggle more vs protection than those with unlimited ammo. I made no actual conclusions on the "result".

 

By range advantage (and I did point out it is not great) I meant smky reaches max dmg potential at greater range than Ricco.

 

In the end I agreed - Smoky has been nerfed too much over time - the reload and critical dmg no longer make it special.

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

 

Hammer- balanced.

why no explanation? just balanced and that's it? let me do it for you.

 

extremly powerful but but too hard for most people to use properly, as such not a lot of people use it and even those who do don't use it properly... so while it is overpowered people don't know how to make use of it so hammer doesn't get perceived as a threat.

[Tani_S 736]

 

 

Other side is... at high levels you need to consider Protection Modules - 50% might change the outcome.

Supplies cancel each other so disregard DD & DA.

 

M4 Ricco does ~ dmg 350/shot.  has 14 shots?  So would do 4900 dmg, but divide by 2 for 2450/clip.  Can't kill a medium hull.

 

Question is, can an M4 smoky facing same 50% protection kill a medium hull before Ricco can recharge enough to finish off smoky?

Don't know recharge rates so can't answer this question.

Smky also has a range advantage - though not great. If it can one or two shots in before Ricco gets optimal battle is a bit closer.

 

But yes - overall I feel smky has been nerfed a bit too much.  My Smky & Ricco are roughly same m-level and I find Ricco more effective.

 

 

If we consider 50% modules and the averages of M4 on both sides and include an estimated overall critical shot probability 20% I would end up calculating that Rico will have a 20% better time-to-kill as Rico will need 12 sec (7 sec for full mag + 5 sec for shooting & loading the remaining shots) and Smoky 15 sec to kill each other.

[Guest]

Since everyone is posting their opinions on turrets I will post mine:

 

 

 

Firebird: Balanced.

Freeze: Balanced, but a slight buff wouldn't hurt.

Isida: Above average performance, but not sure if it warrants a nerf.

Hammer: Balanced.

Twins: OP. Favorite turret of drugging buyers!

Ricochet: Like Twins, except more cancerous.

Smoky: Balanced.

Striker: Balanced. A little inconsistent across modifications though.

Vulcan: A sad joke, the weakest of all turrets.

Thunder: Best turret for farming EXP. Extremely easy to play at that. It's in a weird place where it is effective but not exactly OP.

Railgun: Above average. I get one-shotted all the time by M3 Rails in my M3 Viking, but I don't know if that is because of the high caliber alteration or not.

Shaft: Above average.

Magnum:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what it feels like to play against Magnum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm.. my opinions: :p

 

Firebird- Balanced if we're talking about the turret. Equipping the alteration allows me to keep up with heavy druggers, and though I thoroughly enjoy that, I must admit it isn't really fair xD

Freeze - Agree, think it needs a slight buff tbh.

Isida - Agree.

Hammer - Agree, when equipped with the M2 alteration. Perhaps a slightlyyyy faster reload rate won't hurt for the standard version, but think it's fairly balanced as it I should now.

Twins - Ok, fair point. Don't think it is thaaaaaat OP, but with drugs there is no way out if you're on the wrong end of the turret tbh :/

Rico - Not really. I hate it, but don't think it's worse than twins. Perhaps a slight nerf won't hurt tho.

Smoky - really? :o hmmm I think it is desperately underpowered, without MUs I found it impossible to even think of competing in a game. Perhaps cos I still don't really know how to use it properly and to its full potential, oh well :/

Striker - Agree.

Vulcan - I agree it is underpowered, but feel smoky is generally worse.

Thunder - Well, in theory yes, but in actual games I found out that Thunder protection is way too common for it effective. I regret my decision to buy it a lot to be honest :/

Railgun - Ehhhh, feel like a little buff won't hurt here to be completely honest.

Shaft - Average imo

Magnum - 100% agree with you :p

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

Smoky - really? :o hmmm I think it is desperately underpowered, without MUs I found it impossible to even think of competing in a game. Perhaps cos I still don't really know how to use it properly and to its full potential, oh well :/

:huh: from recruit to legend, sandbox to lost temple,   dm, cp, ctf or tdm, smoky+hunter is all you'll ever need for anything...

 

[micah3 61]

Just to clear this up here are the lowest to highest damage potential for each tier of Striker respectively:
Striker
M0 1,560-1,920
M1 2,124-2,608
M2 2,452-3,012
M3 3,160-3,880

 

Striker is broken, fix it.

 

Also, anybody know why I can't drive around and turn my turret while firing. It won't let me turn my turret when i'm firing my gun. RIP Firebird, Freeze, Isida, Vulcan, Twins, Ricochet...

[LittleWillie 3,199]

:huh: from recruit to legend, sandbox to lost temple,   dm, cp, ctf or tdm, smoky+hunter is all you'll ever need for anything...

 

 

There are hundreds of thousands of player accounts created over the years.

 

It is possible to find a successful profile for every turret and hull in the game. That is anecdote not evidence. 

 

As for Smoky is certainly is a viable turret. But you have to work harder with it than you have to with most other turrets to get to the same level of effectiveness.  

Smoky Story (W a cameo by Shaft)

 

I had a good run last night. CP Cologne. Me Smoky/Titan they Fire/wTins/Isida all on Hunters IIRC. Everyone with full drugs, me w/OD in my pocket. I was behind on of the chalets in the corner. Fire comes in nose to nose, no where for me to go but I know I  can outlast fire w/my mod (Fire/Twins/Rico)  Blasted him popped OD to recover HP. Moved out to base center area where the Twins was blazing and screening the Isida from my fire.  So I had to maneuver and shoot him away enough to land three shots to kill Mr. Isida.  Then it was my old Twins friends (he seemed to be looking for me that game) and that ended well for me.

 

The combo of heavy hull and heavy impacts gives survivability. Plus it was the first night for the mod at a full 35% ... that helped. :)

 

Smoky/Titan w/ Impact has been a royal beast for me. In the past month or so my k/d must be averaging about 4. Much of that comes form having an MU advantage over the typical kit-buying player.  But this account also has a Shaft. When I drop that in the kills just mount. It is soooo easy to score kills compared to the Smoky.  But .... not all the time.  In some matches I need the fast firing Smoky more. Besides Smoky simply is more fun more often. :)

 

And as said above, Smoky can be used on pretty much any map. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by LittleWillie

[wolverine848 13,097]

:huh: from recruit to legend, sandbox to lost temple,   dm, cp, ctf or tdm, smoky+hunter is all you'll ever need for anything...

 

 

 

 

Can't tell what rank but...

 

Time in game is < 1/2 of mine and has used ~ 2x as many supplies as me.

 

So I'm thinking supplies had something to do with the numbers there, no?

[Guest]

:huh: from recruit to legend, sandbox to lost temple,   dm, cp, ctf or tdm, smoky+hunter is all you'll ever need for anything...

 

Ahahah xD alright then, it's just me that sucks with it :p

[CooperO 7,956]

Also, anybody know why I can't drive around and turn my turret while firing. It won't let me turn my turret when i'm firing my gun. RIP Firebird, Freeze, Isida, Vulcan, Twins, Ricochet...

It might have something to do with a ghosting keyboard and your control settings.

You can change some of the settings and see if that improves anything. I play with WASD (to drive) and BN (to turn turret) and that gives me no ghosting, standard settings give me the problems you're describing. Here's another suggestion that might prevent ghosting.

[D.A.R.K.N.E.S.S 432]

:huh: from recruit to legend, sandbox to lost temple, dm, cp, ctf or tdm, smoky+hunter is all you'll ever need for anything...

 

Is that StockBoreStockStroke?

I used to be good friends with him in the general ranks, idk where he went.

He only ever used smoky and hunter and got to gissimo

Edited November 15, 2017 by D.A.R.K.N.E.S.S

[LOLKILLERTOTHEDEATH 1,921]

Got some time to kill so I thought I'd just put out what a lot of players are thinking (at least for M3):

 

Firebird- very strong in close range, but with maps being expanded for 10 v 10 there's a lot of room for retreat.  

Verdict: Balanced.

 

Isida: Damage is higher than Firebird, and does not lose damage over range.  It gains a lot of xp from healing as well, which should be its primary function, but it's now a good idea to use Isida as an offensive weapon.

Verdict: Too strong

 

Freeze- even in low ranks it isn't that hard to counter as its damage isn't ridiculous.  In high ranks the freezing effect simply takes too long to take hold and there is no point.  This is why freezes tend to have the lowest d/l and an Isida or Firebird is almost always a better option.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Hammer- balanced.

Thunder-balanced.

Twins - balanced.

Ricochet- strong with impact but loses potency in drug-wars. Balanced.

 

Smoky- works well on any map.  Can usually beat any other turret in a 1 v 1.  Dishes out tremendous amounts of damage and the impact is maddening.  

Verdict: Too strong.

 

Striker- Salvo is nice and works well in certain situations, however, arcade rockets are far too easy to dodge.  Since they're the primary mode of fire, they should be a bit more effective.  Thunder is often a better option and striker is very team-dependent.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Vulcan- feels like you are "tickling enemies." Far too much time for opponents to run away.  Damage at range is so weak they can practically sit and wait with you firing at them nonstop.

Verdict: Too weak.

 

Shaft-you can easily escape their vision to sneak up on them, and the turret is rather team-dependent. Verdict: Balanced.

Railgun- Slightly too weak, but primarily because of the abundance of protections against it.  Worth it at least for format battles.

 

Magnum- splash damage is tremendous. Operates well in close range as well as long range.  Ability to camp at the very corner of the map and disrupt an entire defensive setup.  

Verdict: Too damn strong.

Thunder is too weak

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

Can't tell what rank but...

 

Time in game is < 1/2 of mine and has used ~ 2x as many supplies as me.

 

So I'm thinking supplies had something to do with the numbers there, no?

because what else can he do with all the crystals? when you already have all the equipment you need you have to spend those crystals somewhere...

 

 

Well the thing is, most of the EXP he gained was probably before the Smoky nerf.

it wasn't ;) his crystal to exp ratio is barely above 1, this means that most of this was after the update where they stoped counting crystals earned from missions as part of crystals earned. and they did that after the smoky nerf.

 

Is that StockBoreStockStroke?

I used to be good friends with him in the general ranks, idk where he went.

He only ever used smoky and hunter and got to gissimo

i doubt it. This guy is russian and doesn't speak english.

Edited November 15, 2017 by GuidoFawkes

[wolverine848 13,097]

because what else can he do with all the crystals? when you already have all the equipment you need you have to spend those crystals somewhere...

 

 

it wasn't ;) his crystal to exp ratio is barely above 1, this means that most of this was after the update where they stoped counting crystals earned from missions as part of crystals earned. and they did that after the smoky nerf.

 

i doubt it. This guy is russian and doesn't speak english.

My point was that supplies - not necessarily smky - was a big factor.

 

And since xp-crys ratio is close I'm not sure what you are pointing out?  K/D?  K/D is meaningless stat.

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

My point was that supplies - not necessarily smky - was a big factor.

 

And since xp-crys ratio is close I'm not sure what you are pointing out?  K/D?  K/D is meaningless stat.

yes you're probably right

 

no, i was repling to 3rdonion, he said my friend earned all the exp when smoky was OP, i told him he did so after smoky got nerfed, because the smoky nerf came before the update when they stopped counting crystals from missions into total crystals earned

 

the only thing i was pointing out was that smoky is good enough for anything and anywhere, it's more than you'll ever need. that's why these guys never had to use anything else.

 

http://ratings.tankionline.com/en/user/StockBoreStockStroke/

 

thanks to darkness we have yet another living proof

Edited November 15, 2017 by GuidoFawkes