category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[STAULKER 0]

Is the hammer duplet alt is good or dragons breath ???

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Is the hammer duplet alt is good or dragons breath ???

Both are pretty good to be honest.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

I think it's time for me to say this. They need to remove the feature of Shaft where a scoped shot of any power would fully deplete the ammo bar. 

 

Some turrets, like Twins, Thunder and Firebird, are balanced because there a many protections against it. 

Some turrets, like Striker and Shaft, are balanced because there aren't many protections against it (because it is much rarer to see than the other turrets. 

 

I used to be a Shaft main in my early days of Tanki. I found that a "scoped-sniper" turret was an interesting thing to play with. Back then, I realised right away that it wasn't as powerful as I thought it would be. To my 11-year-old mind, a sniper turret like shaft (after watching the scoped damage stat in-game) in theory should be able to one-shot all light and medium hulls at all modifications. The only hulls I was able to one-shot (at the stock M0 modification) were Wasps, Hornets and Hunters. (I had to upgrade the damage once to be able to 1 shot the stock M0 Hunters) I didn't take that as a deterrent for playing Shaft and I kept going.

 

It feels really rewarding to kill the guy chasing your ally who has the enemy flag. That was my self-given role in those battles, a support sniper. My priority was to help the attackers go in unscathed and escape with minimal damage suffered. 

 

Fast foward a little bit, they buffed the scope damage for shaft a bit. Since I only had the M0 modification with only 2 upgrades (1 for scoped damage and 1 for arcade damage) I only looked at the stats for M0 Shaft. The scoped-shot damage for stock M0 Shaft increased from 110.2 to 121.1. With that, I was finally able to one shot M0 Hunters without having a worry that I wouldn't have one-shotted them. I was also able to finally one-shot stock M1 Hornet which I vividly remember having 118.1 HP.  

 

 

After the damage number introduced into the game and the turrets' new damages were multiplied by 10, Shaft still saw underpowered damage. At this time, I was using another account but I was also a Shaft main there. Just by looking at the stats, the scoped damage was still not good enough to compete with similarly levelled medium hulls. Here now, is around where they made it so that MUs would have 50 steps from M1-M2, M2-M3 and M3-M4. I had to upgrade it so many times just to be able to one-shot the average M1 Viking and Dictator. It certainly would have been more efficient to use another turret at that time but I put so many upgrades into Shaft that I didn't want to abandon it. I guess I fell into the Sunken Costs Fallacy. 

 

Fast foward to before the recent balance changes, we have a Shaft that has a seemingly good scoped-damage. One thing was off though. I remember in a balance change for Shaft a little bit back, they said how they changed the scoped-damage so that it would be able to one-shot all medium hulls at the same modification and upgrades as the Shaft. This however, is not the case. 

 

Stock M0 Shaft:

 

Can kill all stock M0 medium hulls. 

 

Stock M1 Shaft:

 

Cannot kill any stock M1 medium hulls.

 

Stock M2 Shaft:

 

Can kill stock M2 Dictator and Hunter.

 

Cannot kill stock M2 Viking.

 

Stock M3 Shaft

 

Can kill all stock M3 medium hulls. 

 

M4 Shaft:

 

Can kill all M4 medium hulls, 

 

 

 

 

Shaft, according to them, should be able to one-shot all medium hulls of the same modification and upgrade level of the Shaft shooting them. If it's an M1 5/10 upgraded Shaft, then it should be able to, AT MOST, one-shot any medium hull at M! 5/10. This is where the problem of changing it completely to that comes in. 

 

It makes sense that it can one-shot all medium hulls at M0 and M3 + M4. M1 and M2 modifications matter the most in Tanki. Having all the medium hulls' modifications have the same HP as the damage shaft can do would make the price of each not be partially dependent on the HP. If any of you haven't noticed, The price of each M2 modification of a turret or hull is dependent on the statistics of the M1 modification. For twins, I'm guessing it's expensive just because it's OP.

 

M1 Smoky is cheap which means it is not a big increase in stats from M0. M2 smoky, however, is expensive and has a big increase in stats from M1. The same thing for Hulls. M1 hornet has a moderate increase in stats from M0 and is a little expensive. M2 Hornet has a small increase in stats from M1 and with the small increase in stats comes the cheapest priced M2 Hull in the game. M1 Wasp has a slightly moderate increase in stats from M0. M2 Wasp has a big increase in stats from M1 which leads to its high price, the highest of all M2 Hulls actually. 

 

If we are to make Shaft's damage = HP of all medium hulls, then the price of each of them would not make complete sense and it may ruin game balance for other hulls and turrets. They said one thing, but what it actually is is not what they said it was. I'm glad they didn't make the balance change like that but they could have at least not said that and made my thoughts haunted by it. 

 

Solution? Either remove the "instantly drain the ammo bar" mechanic, decrease the minimum and maximum damage from an arcade shot and make it so that it does the arcade damage range from any range on the map like the old Shaft OR Increase the damage of a scoped shot for only the modifications of M1 and M2. 

I would heavily prefer the former because this is what a lot of Shaft players want. Even though I don't play Shaft on the real servers anymore, I was really upset when they changed it so that the damage has falloff after a short range. Even if that was intended for balance, that range is  FAR TOO SMALL for damage falloff. To compensate for this, they increased the minimum damage for the scoped shot by 6-7% and decreased the reload time on all modifications by 0.5 seconds. This reduction in reload time turns it into a good turret for assault raids and "covering fire" as it is on par with Smoky's reload time. 

 

With the last change they made to it, it seems like they changed the purpose of the two modes. In the early days of Shaft, it felt like if it was a person with a sniper rifle and a pistol for finishing enemies who were previously shot with a fully charged scoped shot or for emergency close range combat. This isn't how it looks now.

 

Old Shaft: 

 

Primary weapon: Scoped Shot

 

Secondary weapon: Arcade Shot.

 

New Shaft: 

 

Primary weapon: Arcade Shot

 

Secondary weapon: Scoped Shot

 

 

I like the idea of the scoped shot being the secondary weapon. You bombard them from close to mid-range with arcade shots and if the range is too far to deal good damage with the arcade shots, switch to the scoped shot. However, that's not how it was in the old days. They have been changing the in-game descriptions of hulls and turrets over time. The latest one (which I'm pretty sure has no correlation with what I was saying before) states that the scoped-shot is the secondary fire for it, the primary being the arcade shot. So maybe it's supposed to feel like that, who knows? But as you saw when you first made the change, there were many negative negative comments just because of how it sounds on paper. 

 

You wouldn't see many Shafts in MM or Pro battles as opposed to other turrets. Why make it so that it would make sense to use another turret than Shaft. Shaft players were expecting a buff and we got a perceived-from-the-start nerf.

 

Hopefully they will buff it in the next balance change and hopefully, that next balance change will be soon. If it receives another nerf, I don't know what the community would do. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by TheCongoSpider

[BigBigBalls 13]

Frankly,  I haven't seen a double shot hammer w/o a DD.   They are very OP.   Sometimes there can be 2-4 double shot hammers in one team.   I could cope with 1 or 2, but 3 or 4, no way.

[Maf 32,300]

 

Topic merged

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

Frankly,  I haven't seen a double shot hammer w/o a DD.   They are very OP.   Sometimes there can be 2-4 double shot hammers in one team.   I could cope with 1 or 2, but 3 or 4, no way.

Every DM battle at really high ranks has at least 4 hammers. They are either Duplet Hammer or Stock Hammer. 90% of the Hammers I've dealt with there have the Duplet alteration.

[enri_chill 265]

Every DM battle at really high ranks has at least 4 hammers. They are either Duplet Hammer or Stock Hammer. 90% of the Hammers I've dealt with there have the Duplet alteration.

I have been buffing up my hammer protection ever since the alts were released...it is no fun getting hit by a squad of 3 hammers and an isida

[Michael828 816]

"Duplet" makes the word balance shoot itself in the face.

I'm seeing more hammers now than ever, which is a sign that it has clearly become OP. Even firebird doesn't contribute to bad game balance as much as this alteration does. 

 

If you nerf it I'll give you a delicious cookie.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

So is anyone going to give me feedback on my proposal on page 208?

[Genuine_Noob 34]

Ok, I have this thought...short range turrets seem ridiculously powerful right now, but what if instead of nerfing them, medium hulls were slowed down a bit...especially viking. I think what makes firebird good is not just itself, but the ability to pair with viking and have a fast tough hull. Fire with hornet is much more balanced and is not oppressive at all I'd say

majority of the maps are also small and medium sized this helps feed  the imbalance 

bigger maps will force short range turrets to compromise their hull choice

granted there is not much gaming you can do in 8 minutes .

[Guest]

It's the Duplet Hammer + Booster drone which is ridiculously unbalanced.

 

I have Viking M4 + DA and kept being repeatedly 1 shot in a battle today (essentially, as there was no time gap between Hammer shots in which to repair) by an M4 Hammer with DD, Duplet alteration and Booster drone.

 

How is this fair or balanced? It's got no counter at all.

[enri_chill 265]

It's the Duplet Hammer + Booster drone which is ridiculously unbalanced.

 

I have Viking M4 + DA and kept being repeatedly 1 shot in a battle today (essentially, as there was no time gap between Hammer shots in which to repair) by an M4 Hammer with DD, Duplet alteration and Booster drone.

 

How is this fair or balanced? It's got no counter at all.

By default that set up (and others using it) will be incredibly OP for up to 5 seconds...

The only counter possible for a medium hull at m4 would be DA and 50% protection for hammer for those 5 seconds IF the hammer lands every pellet.

 

I certainly don't want to face ANY turret at m4 with DD and booster drone mu to the max...

 

I am not a fan of the drones at all...that is one of the reasons. I get the alts...yes some are quite devastating, but combined with drones several are OP.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

I think it's time for me to say this. They need to remove the feature of Shaft where a scoped shot of any power would fully deplete the ammo bar. 

 

Some turrets, like Twins, Thunder and Firebird, are balanced because there a many protections against it. 

Some turrets, like Striker and Shaft, are balanced because there aren't many protections against it (because it is much rarer to see than the other turrets. 

 

It feels really rewarding to kill the guy chasing your ally who has the enemy flag. That was my self-given role in those battles, a support sniper. My priority was to help the attackers go in unscathed and escape with minimal damage suffered.

 

Fast foward to before the recent balance changes, we have a Shaft that has a seemingly good scoped-damage. One thing was off though. I remember in a balance change for Shaft a little bit back, they said how they changed the scoped-damage so that it would be able to one-shot all medium hulls at the same modification and upgrades as the Shaft. This however, is not the case. 

 

Shaft, according to them, should be able to one-shot all medium hulls of the same modification and upgrade level of the Shaft shooting them. If it's an M1 5/10 upgraded Shaft, then it should be able to, AT MOST, one-shot any medium hull at M! 5/10. This is where the problem of changing it completely to that comes in. 

 

It makes sense that it can one-shot all medium hulls at M0 and M3 + M4. M1 and M2 modifications matter the most in Tanki. Having all the medium hulls' modifications have the same HP as the damage shaft can do would make the price of each not be partially dependent on the HP. If any of you haven't noticed, The price of each M2 modification of a turret or hull is dependent on the statistics of the M1 modification. For twins, I'm guessing it's expensive just because it's OP.

 

If we are to make Shaft's damage = HP of all medium hulls, then the price of each of them would not make complete sense and it may ruin game balance for other hulls and turrets. They said one thing, but what it actually is is not what they said it was. I'm glad they didn't make the balance change like that but they could have at least not said that and made my thoughts haunted by it. 

 

Solution? Either remove the "instantly drain the ammo bar" mechanic, decrease the minimum and maximum damage from an arcade shot and make it so that it does the arcade damage range from any range on the map like the old Shaft OR Increase the damage of a scoped shot for only the modifications of M1 and M2. 

I would heavily prefer the former because this is what a lot of Shaft players want. Even though I don't play Shaft on the real servers anymore, I was really upset when they changed it so that the damage has falloff after a short range. Even if that was intended for balance, that range is  FAR TOO SMALL for damage falloff. To compensate for this, they increased the minimum damage for the scoped shot by 6-7% and decreased the reload time on all modifications by 0.5 seconds. This reduction in reload time turns it into a good turret for assault raids and "covering fire" as it is on par with Smoky's reload time. 

 

With the last change they made to it, it seems like they changed the purpose of the two modes. In the early days of Shaft, it felt like if it was a person with a sniper rifle and a pistol for finishing enemies who were previously shot with a fully charged scoped shot or for emergency close range combat. This isn't how it looks now.

 

Old Shaft: 

 

Primary weapon: Scoped Shot

 

Secondary weapon: Arcade Shot.

 

New Shaft: 

 

Primary weapon: Arcade Shot

 

Secondary weapon: Scoped Shot

 

 

I like the idea of the scoped shot being the primary weapon. You bombard them from close to mid-range with arcade shots and if the range is too far to deal good damage with the arcade shots, switch to the scoped shot. However, that's not how it was in the old days. They have been changing the in-game descriptions of hulls and turrets over time. The latest one (which I'm pretty sure has no correlation with what I was saying before) states that the scoped-shot is the secondary fire for it, the primary being the arcade shot. So maybe it's supposed to feel like that, who knows? But as you saw when you first made the change, there were many negative negative comments just because of how it sounds on paper. 

 

You wouldn't see many Shafts in MM or Pro battles as opposed to other turrets. Why make it so that it would make sense to use another turret than Shaft. Shaft players were expecting a buff and we got a perceived-from-the-start nerf.

Totally disagree with your solution idea. But me, I almost ALWAYS use Shaft in MM battle. 

 

Although if you want Alternativa bring back the old Shaft, I consider it as an alternation idea. Then every Shafters, including me would be happy.

 

I prefer the current Shaft for numbers of reason:

 

1. Faster reload, pulling Shaft noobs (yes, I do insult my counterparts) who only know nothing more than sitting one shot to actual fast-paced combat.

 

2. In sticky situation when it takes 2 arcade shot for fatal blow, it just takes 1.5 seconds to get that job done (assuming me using M4 Shaft).

 

3. My usual combination (Shaft-Hornet) made it more versatile in close range combat, although long range's ability did get dropped a bit as a trade-off.

 

4. When using current Shaft with Titan in Deathmatch, it can compete Smoky-Titan by almost everything. 

 

In fact, its reload time need buff even more! M4's energy recharge rate per second should increase from 143 to 200. But still keep the effective range short. The "deplete energy bar per sniper shot", um..... should keep that too. 

 

If Alternativa accepts my reload buff idea, I'm also worry about the next day that rebalance comes out, everyone are going to spam Eagle module just like how they did to Smoky and Thunder buffs.

Edited December 17, 2018 by FrozenRailgun

[Hate 5,582]

 

Topic merged.

[Genuine_Noob 34]

I play M4 Hammer with duplet on M4 Hunter and I have drones and lots of drugs. I also play other stuff as well, all M4. But you would be surprised in a lot of games I have a hard time killing anybody. Lots of high level players with 45 - 50% Hammer protection now and they know they have to defend against the Duplet alteration. I do better in lots of games with Rico because it is OP as heck with DD and not nearly as many have protection against it.

same story with railgun and thunder at HL protections, i get where you are going and i understand hummer and smoky in my opinion are the 2 turrent which struggle the most against their counter module , rico and twins are op and the dev don't have the guts to delete stable plasma and minus-field stabilization ( lets get real for a second those 2 altaration have no draw backs whatsoever no matter how their fan try to sugercoat it). but:

DUPLET IS TO OP

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

same story with railgun and thunder at HL protections, i get where you are going and i understand hummer and smoky in my opinion are the 2 turrent which struggle the most against their counter module , rico and twins are op and the dev don't have the guts to delete stable plasma and minus-field stabilization ( lets get real for a second those 2 altaration have no draw backs whatsoever no matter how their fan try to sugercoat it). but:

DUPLET IS TO OP

 

Twins needs stable plasma to even stay competitive because at close range it'll suffer from self damage. And ricochet needs minus field stabilization because without it, rico is unusable because the balls won't bounce very far.

 

Besides, the one alteration that needs to be removed is the compact tanks for firebird. Way OP and everywhere.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Twins needs stable plasma to even stay competitive because at close range it'll suffer from self damage. And ricochet needs minus field stabilization because without it, rico is unusable because the balls won't bounce very far.

 

Besides, the one alteration that needs to be removed is the compact tanks for firebird. Way OP and everywhere.

You forgot Mortar alteration for magnum...

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

You forgot Mortar alteration for magnum...

I just assume that every magnum crater I see hides a mine in it. I'm pretty sure that many other players are also doing the same thing.

 

I personally don't have a problem with it unless half of The enemy team is using the mortar magnum.

[splitterpoint 10,986]

I personally don't have a problem with it unless half of The enemy team is using the mortar magnum.

It gets annoying aswell when the Magnum user is consistent in the charge rate and well covered; I've seen them hitting mines on mines lol. 

[Genuine_Noob 34]

Twins needs stable plasma to even stay competitive because at close range it'll suffer from self damage. And ricochet needs minus field stabilization because without it, rico is unusable because the balls won't bounce very far.

 

Besides, the one alteration that needs to be removed is the compact tanks for firebird. Way OP and everywhere.

balls won't bounce very far?,what part of close range do you not understand.

for example uranium missile is op and it gives striker great close range capabilities  but it sacrifice long range and its still crap at melee.

what are the drawbacks ?.

twins need stable plasma you say, well lets see twins has great damage good range  great fireing rate good impact force and you are telling me it needs more !!.

firebirds compact tank is op and need to be removed ? nah its still just a melee turret what needs fixing is the afterburns interference with repair,

also the devs should add more big maps to MM that will downplay the threat of melee turrets.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Genuine_Noob

[MwaspM 8]

Buffing Wasp

 

In my oppinion wasp really needs a buff at M3 and M4.
depending on my experience in every single battle in MM its very hard to get in first places because how weak is wasp now with high ranks, I get destroyed so easily by any turret M3+,Plus that its very light and every turret with a good impact force can flip it.
I suggest making wasp a little bit faster and making its protection a little higher
and increasing the weight and the power of it.
wasp is so weak compared to other hulls at high ranks and it really needs a buff.
Thanks.

[Xone 382]

There is always other hull you can use in battlefield with more HP points,like medium hull (Hunter,Viking).

If wasp were to be faster and have more HP then it will be little bit not fair :ph34r:

Edited December 21, 2018 by Xone

[Guest]

Hornet right now needs more of a buff than Wasp. 

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

The hull update of October 2016 should be reverted. It was much more balanced before that update.

[test_now 0]

an M2 railgun with double damage... should it be possible of killing an m2 hornet or Viking m2 in 1 shot?

 Or is this WAY to OP .... personally... it's way to overpowered...

 

Either give hornet and viking a buff     (yes please!!!)

Or either... nerf railgun...

Edited December 21, 2018 by test_now