category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

At the very least damage at Mk7+ needs to be reduced from 3300 to 3000. It was originally increased to counter the drone 5% HP buff; now that drones no longer increase HP there's no reason for it to be so high.

[alkyng 3,080]

Umm I think you're about to reach to the best solution that I agree with of returning the Shaft to be only unlocked in WO4 like what it was in the very past

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

4 hours ago, ThirdOnion said:

At the very least damage at Mk7+ needs to be reduced from 3300 to 3000.

This I can agree. To me, I would do that but buff HC's damage increase by 40%.

4 hours ago, ThirdOnion said:

It was originally increased to counter the drone 5% HP buff; now that drones no longer increase HP there's no reason for it to be so high.

It was not HP but rather damage reduction buff.

[mjmj5558 2,346]

4 hours ago, ThirdOnion said:

At the very least damage at Mk7+ needs to be reduced from 3300 to 3000. It was originally increased to counter the drone 5% HP buff; now that drones no longer increase HP there's no reason for it to be so high.

Why will that matter to you?

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

5 minutes ago, mjmj5558 said:

Why will that matter to you?

Prolly because Shaft became EZ to use and armies of Shaft campers.

[mjmj5558 2,346]

14 minutes ago, FrozenRailgun said:

Prolly because Shaft became EZ to use and armies of Shaft campers.

In that case i recommend you using shaft protection. I do not feel that shaft is OP neither when I play with or against it.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

8 minutes ago, mjmj5558 said:

In that case i recommend you using shaft protection. I do not feel that shaft is OP neither when I play with or against it.

Me main on Shaft and I have Eagle module for it.

[Crossbone 516]

9 hours ago, Newton_Error said:

Damage should be reduced such that it cannot one shot an unprotected medium-hull.

While I do agree that its quite annoying that it can one shot you constantly with quick succession, I think it should be compensated in a way that shaft players don't feel cheated. Here's what I think should be done:

•MK1 shaft with full charge will have 50% chance to deal either 1350 or 1650 points of damage.

•MK7+ shaft with full charge will have 50% chance to deal either 2700 or 3300 points of damage.

•The rest of the modifications can follow up accordingly.

[Akame 4,578]

Shaft sniping mode shots do not need a change.

Shaft should be able to 1 shot a medium at its same modification, so alter medium hulls accordingly instead. (max shaft damage 3000 to match 3k hp medium as third mentioned above)

[Spy 14,687]

On 6/17/2021 at 6:55 PM, MysticBlood said:

 

Topic merged.

[Abellia 504]

Hoo boy, there are a lot of hot takes here. 

On 6/23/2021 at 3:19 AM, Newton_Error said:

Shaft has a ridiculously high damage compared to others turrets at lower ranks it can one shot any medium hull without any boosted damage which is totally overpowered. Shafts also have a comparatively fast fire rate at arcade mode which once close enough can deal a moderate damage. At lower ranks most people don't have enough protection against it which is the only reason it is very strong. It can also shoot form gaps and doesn't have any damage drop. Not only that in very large maps approximately size that of highway. The laser doesn't even reach the other side and tends to stop a bit after the midway. which tend to cause unawareness.

here's some solution:

###only at ranks mentioned at the end.###

###these are all individual solutions and only one is applicable at most not all at once.###

1) Damage should be reduced such that it cannot one shot an unprotected medium-hull.

2) peripheral vision should be reduced even more.

3) it should not be able to deal adequate damage until the load bar is completely exhausted.(except heavy capacitator)

4) reduction in arcade mode's fire rate.(except rapid fire mode)

 

**The laser bug should be fixed such that it can trace till the end of the map**

lower ranks reference (Staff Sergeant-Captain ).

 

 

I really don't think Shaft needs a damage nerf in just the low ranks, nor does it need a reduction of the arcade mode firing speed. The issue with low rank shaft is the way that Shaft scales similarly to the rest of the turrets over modifications. This seems fine in theory, but put into practice, there is the issue of hulls being slower, and thus needing more time out of cover. Shaft's parameter that corresponds almost directly to this, the charge-up, does not change over modifications. If it were up to me, I would be nerfing that. (Also, why should it not be able to deal adequate damage until the load bar is completely exhausted, except heavy capacitor? That's pretty much how heavy capacitor ordinarily works, doing less damage than stock and other augments up until it has charged at least an extra half a second. Not sure why you'd flip that.)
 

On 6/23/2021 at 5:37 AM, ThirdOnion said:

At the very least damage at Mk7+ needs to be reduced from 3300 to 3000. It was originally increased to counter the drone 5% HP buff; now that drones no longer increase HP there's no reason for it to be so high.

Agreed, but I would give Light Capacitors a buff so it still has enough damage to finish off medium hulls with 1 arcade + 1 fully charged shot - if they needed two, I'm not sure the playstyle would survive for anyone without Booster/Crisis.

20 hours ago, FrozenRailgun said:

This I can agree. To me, I would do that but buff HC's damage increase by 40%.

It was not HP but rather damage reduction buff.

 

20 hours ago, FrozenRailgun said:

Prolly because Shaft became EZ to use and armies of Shaft campers.

If you are buffing HC's damage increase by 40% - will you be increasing the charge time nerf too? If you do this alongside those damage reduction nerfs to shaft as a whole, you're basically telling people to go camp with HCs. Doing so, you decrease Light Capacitors' peak damage from 2475 to 2250, and simultaneously change Heavy Capacitors' damage at 2 seconds from 1980 - below stock - to 2100 - well above this new nerfed stock (approximate values, based off my knowledge of how shaft chargeup works.) This effectively removes any reason to play any augment other than Heavy Capacitors, in almost any role you could give Shaft. Armies of Shaft campers would only continue to grow (and I don't see anywhere that shaft "became" EZ to use, unless you mean they fixed the html5 scope bug.)

18 hours ago, Crossbone said:

While I do agree that its quite annoying that it can one shot you constantly with quick succession, I think it should be compensated in a way that shaft players don't feel cheated. Here's what I think should be done:

•MK1 shaft with full charge will have 50% chance to deal either 1350 or 1650 points of damage.

•MK7+ shaft with full charge will have 50% chance to deal either 2700 or 3300 points of damage.

•The rest of the modifications can follow up accordingly.

Are you aware this is, as far as we know, only achievable through the critical system right now? Sorry to have to disagree, but I'd rather not give shafts a 50% chance to ignore protection like Railgun. Also - Shaft, even during the damage spread prior to the critical update, never had any variable damage from its charge. Charge time meant more power, and I think it should stay that way.

17 hours ago, Akame said:

Shaft sniping mode shots do not need a change.

Shaft should be able to 1 shot a medium at its same modification, so alter medium hulls accordingly instead. (max shaft damage 3000 to match 3k hp medium as third mentioned above)

Same thing as with Onion. You might have crisis for LCs, but the rest of us will be suffering.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Abellia
added context

[DestrotankAI9 1,513]

Might just be me, but I don't really find Shaft to be OP at low ranks?

Some turrets are quite reliant on augments to be effective, and are comparatively weak in their stock versions. This is not so with Shaft, which is one of the turrets least reliant on augments to do well - and at lower ranks of course you have less augments than at high.  Also, turrets with non-instant hit projectiles gain the advantage of faster projectiles as they rank up, making them significantly better in some cases at high ranks than at low. Finally, Shaft in its scoped mode has no "range of maximum and minimum damage" - which increases for turrets like Smoky and Thunder as they rank up, making their higher modifications better than their lower rank modifications - if we compared them to instant-hit turrets like Shaft at the same modification level.

All these factors combined, possibly make Shaft feel stronger at low ranks - but I still don't think it is OP. I have no problem competing with Shaft at low ranks with most other turrets personally.

Edited June 24, 2021 by DestrotankAI9

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

3 hours ago, Abellia said:

If you are buffing HC's damage increase by 40% - will you be increasing the charge time nerf too?

 

If you do this alongside those damage reduction nerfs to shaft as a whole, you're basically telling people to go camp with HCs. Doing so, you decrease Light Capacitors' peak damage from 2475 to 2250, and simultaneously change Heavy Capacitors' damage at 2 seconds from 1980 - below stock - to 2100 - well above this new nerfed stock (approximate values, based off my knowledge of how shaft chargeup works.)

 

This effectively removes any reason to play any augment other than Heavy Capacitors, in almost any role you could give Shaft. Armies of Shaft campers would only continue to grow (and I don't see anywhere that shaft "became" EZ to use, unless you mean they fixed the html5 scope bug.)

First point: I will not give back its 8 seconds charging time. After the HC buff, I can actually it dynamically on my Hornet-Shaft combo. If you are going to bring back its 8 seconds charging time + rotation speed reduction, then it wouldn't be useful in terms of dynamic gameplay thus encourage camping.

Second point: I will buff LC as well from -25% to -15% (this translates to 2,550 damage at its peak).

3rd point: Some auggies like SBE gives 20% damage boost to arcade shot but taking 25% longer to reload isn't consistent as well.

 

[Akame 4,578]

5 hours ago, Abellia said:

 

Same thing as with Onion. You might have crisis for LCs, but the rest of us will be suffering.

I was talking about stock only, it genuinely makes sense for a shaft on equal footing to a medium to be able to 1 shot it. LC's and HC's would be adjusted accordingly. However Crisis will always break barriers regardless.

[Abellia 504]

6 hours ago, FrozenRailgun said:

First point: I will not give back its 8 seconds charging time. After the HC buff, I can actually it dynamically on my Hornet-Shaft combo. If you are going to bring back its 8 seconds charging time + rotation speed reduction, then it wouldn't be useful in terms of dynamic gameplay thus encourage camping.

Second point: I will buff LC as well from -25% to -15% (this translates to 2,550 damage at its peak).

3rd point: Some auggies like SBE gives 20% damage boost to arcade shot but taking 25% longer to reload isn't consistent as well.

 

For the first point - I think 8 seconds would be excessive, same with a rotation speed reduction. That's why I wouldn't want it to receive a power buff and have to deal with an extra set of corresponding nerfs.

As for the second point - sounds good (alternately, the arcade range could be extended past the range of a melee turret...)

Lastly - I don't understand the third point you're making. Damage buffs/nerfs on such a small scale for augments (which don't enable killing in fewer or more hits) don't equate to the way that Shaft operates very similarly at low/high ranks, which is the issue.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Abellia

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

39 minutes ago, Abellia said:

Lastly - I don't understand the third point you're making. Damage buffs/nerfs on such a small scale for augments (which don't enable killing in fewer or more hits) don't equate to the way that Shaft operates very similarly at low/high ranks, which is the issue.

My bad, I was meant to say that balancing out Shaft is no easy job (even as a Shaft main myself). I still want to keep HC's ability to OHKO heavy hull yet.... making sure it it's not too easily or difficult to use for dynamic gameplay.

[kydapoot 570]

I think your general idea is fine - shaft is pretty powerful in the low ranks. But, the whole* point of Shaft is to be able to one-shot a medium hull - it can (and always has been able to, afaik) do that at any level, provided its modification and supplies roughly stack up to those of the enemy hull. That's what makes it so cool to play with.

My suggestion would be a simple nerf to the charge-up-rate of the shot, i.e. making it an upgradable parameter that begins at a lower value than what it is now. Reducing the FOV in scope mode as you mentioned wouldn't be a bad idea either, nor would reducing the scoped rotation speed a bit. And of course, fixing the laser bug would help.

But please, lets not take away the full damage of the scoped shot; it's what makes the turret unique and fun to play with.

*ok, a large portion of the point, ig it can do other things too

Edited June 24, 2021 by kydapoot

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

Actually here are my proposals:

Assume Mk8 Shaft: Exactly 3k damage when charged up. Takes 5 seconds to refill its energy after firing a sniper shot (regardless fully or semi-fully charged shot).

HC: Keep its 6 seconds charging time but crank up its damage boost by 40% (4,200 damage @ its peak). Looks like a buff at 1st but the reload time is decreased.

LC: Keep its 2 second charging time but decrease its damage penality to -15% (2,550 damage at full charge) 

 

[Abellia 504]

28 minutes ago, FrozenRailgun said:

Actually here are my proposals:

Assume Mk8 Shaft: Exactly 3k damage when charged up. Takes 5 seconds to refill its energy after firing a sniper shot (regardless fully or semi-fully charged shot).

HC: Keep its 6 seconds charging time but crank up its damage boost by 40% (4,200 damage @ its peak). Looks like a buff at 1st but the reload time is decreased.

LC: Keep its 2 second charging time but decrease its damage penality to -15% (2,550 damage at full charge) 

 

????? I established why an HC buff without increasing charge time would make it a problem. Your proposal just is a buff, at all charge levels - a 40% power buff with a 33% chargeup penalty it has more damage than Stock, whereas current HCs only surpasses it once it has been charging for longer than the 4 seconds required for Stock to hit cap. You mention a reload time decrease - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant increased reload time following a shot, but still - I would rather not play with parameters in such a manner. That literally just tells people "CAMP WITH HEAVY CAPACITORS, IT HAS GOOD STATS, CAN HIT HIGHER PEAKS, AND CAMPING MEANS YOU CAN SAFELY BYPASS THE RELOAD."  (I assume this is pretty much why people camp with Rapid-Fire Memes.)

If Shaft is going to sit at 3000 damage on a full charge, HCs is best off being shifted to a 33% power increase so it oneshots heavy hulls at full charge, as stock does medium hulls, in exchange for even more additional chargeup time further than the 2 seconds it has now, as otherwise there would be no reason to play stock over heavy caps.. It just makes no sense to give stock 3k damage and have it charge slower than HCs relatively.

tldr; HCs has to charge slower than stock, otherwise why play stock/sbe/adren when you could play HCs, lose nothing, and get to oneshot heavies.

[Newton_Error 14]

On 6/23/2021 at 2:19 PM, mjmj5558 said:

Shaft is supposed to one shot medium hulls, because it's a sniper turret. Moreover, all stats duplicate from m0 to mk7-20 for all turrets and hulls, so it would be illogical to change this. 

However, i did notice the laser bug too (are you a mobile or a PC player?), and I agree in that, it should be fixed.

what about railgun, gauss they are also sniper types.

[mjmj5558 2,346]

51 minutes ago, Newton_Error said:

what about railgun, gauss they are also sniper types.

They are not snipers, only long ranged turrets. Snipers should have a scope, and only shaft has it.

[Akame 4,578]

This is augments and max shaft; for any who haven't seen; as for how they perform at low mods, I have not got time to look for either, but if we consider a rule of thumb such that LC will let the shaft 1 shot a light hull of same modif with X seconds and HC would let the shaft 1 shot a heavy hull of such modifications. BUT, here's a big but, tanki would need to rebalanced ALL items to make their HP's match for set modifs, i.e how current mk7 and above upgrades are.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

11 hours ago, Abellia said:

????? I established why an HC buff without increasing charge time would make it a problem. Your proposal just is a buff, at all charge levels - a 40% power buff with a 33% chargeup penalty it has more damage than Stock, whereas current HCs only surpasses it once it has been charging for longer than the 4 seconds required for Stock to hit cap. You mention a reload time decrease - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant increased reload time following a shot, but still - I would rather not play with parameters in such a manner. That literally just tells people "CAMP WITH HEAVY CAPACITORS, IT HAS GOOD STATS, CAN HIT HIGHER PEAKS, AND CAMPING MEANS YOU CAN SAFELY BYPASS THE RELOAD."  (I assume this is pretty much why people camp with Rapid-Fire Memes.)

If Shaft is going to sit at 3000 damage on a full charge, HCs is best off being shifted to a 33% power increase so it oneshots heavy hulls at full charge, as stock does medium hulls, in exchange for even more additional chargeup time further than the 2 seconds it has now, as otherwise there would be no reason to play stock over heavy caps.. It just makes no sense to give stock 3k damage and have it charge slower than HCs relatively.

tldr; HCs has to charge slower than stock, otherwise why play stock/sbe/adren when you could play HCs, lose nothing, and get to oneshot heavies.

I don't know what else to say.... 

@Tanker-Arthur Come here to discuss how should we rebalance Shaft. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by FrozenRailgun

[Abellia 504]

2 hours ago, FrozenRailgun said:

I don't know what else to say.... 

@Tanker-Arthur Come here to discuss how should we rebalance Shaft. 

I'm waiting for your justification as to why HCs should charge faster than Stock. Go on.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

Just now, Abellia said:

I'm waiting for your justification as to why HCs should charge faster than Stock. Go on.

I made a mistake for that. I was meant to say that HC should keep its 6 seconds charging time while stock retain its 4 seconds.