category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[Frylock 1,617]

On 1/27/2022 at 8:26 PM, Abellia said:

Ah yes, EMP Gauss, the oldest status augment in the game, and its little brother, AP Gauss – the most effective multi-status appliers and the most effective status augments for group kills. In addition to that, it’s still as efficient as most status augments if not more, at fighting a single target. So, to fix these problems for the pair of them:

Electromagnetic Salvo and Armor-Piercing Salvo:
Average and weak splash damage in salvo mode = 10%
Critical hit removed

I think it can keep its status application since that’s kind of what it was known for on release, a ridiculous reach of EMP, but it shouldn’t be allowed to group kill, and to discourage Gauss players from picking one target and bursting them down, it should lose its crits.

Thoughts?

Note that this post was written prior to the announcement of the "EMP no longer resets repairs and mines" update, patch #677.

In addition to the changes I already proposed, I would like to add, for Electromagnetic Salvo:
Sniping reload reduction removed

This stops Electromagnetic Salvo from doing salvo, arcade, salvo on people within its EMP duration, and stops it from outputting strong damage if it wants to constantly deal EMP shots.

Frankly, there is no justifiable reason for any EMP augment to be statistically superior to any AP augments with the recent change.

After reading this, I think the status Gausses are balanced currently. However, I do agree with removing the crit damage completely. 

As a gauss player myself I will admit the recent EMP status effect buff is overkill. But I think it should be allowed to still group kill hence its primary purpose to use the super shot is to get group kills. 

As for removing crits completely, this could be seen as an indirect buff depending on a persons play style. Why??? You are giving more power to status gauss to be able to destroy people with armadillo easier since armadillo only resists crits. Hence why this can be seen as a buff.

Edited January 30, 2022 by MysticBlood
Grammar

[wolverine848 13,097]

50 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

As a gauss player myself I will admit the recent EMP status effect buff is overkill. But I think it should be allowed to still group kill hence its primary purpose to use the super shot is to get group kills. 

That's what stock should be for.

EMP is for a different strategy/purpose.

[Frylock 1,617]

8 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

That's what stock should be for.

EMP is for a different strategy/purpose.

Status gauss already has 25% reduction damage from its sniping damage.  I see no point of removing its splash completely with the effect. However , I do  believe that gauss should have its crits removed completely for its EMP augment and AP. But there is a problem removing them completely, it may indirectly buff gauss players as I have already mentioned above. 

Also even when removing splash damage completely, this would make a gauss player be more of a threat. why??? Imagine a gauss charging in with the meta drones such as booster or crisis. Lets say I am using crisis and I'm charging in for example. I would be able to raid in with charged shots every single time without a consequence and be able to destroy targets easier. Hence why I also believe removing splash completely is not a great idea especially if its a status gauss. That would be OP

Edited January 31, 2022 by MysticBlood
grammar

[K3-19 97]

3 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

Also even when removing splash damage completely, this would make a gauss player be more of a threat. why??? Imagine a gauss charging in with the meta drones such as booster or crisis. Lets say I am using crisis and I'm charging in for example. I would be able to raid in with charged shots every single time without a consequence and be able to destroy targets easier. Hence why I also believe removing splash completely is not a great idea especially if its a status gauss. That would be OP

Agreed. Instead of completely removing splash damage, maybe there should be a nerf in splash damage radius but completely removing it is a bad idea in general, doing so would also remove self damage and players could just rush in with viking/booster/crisis without worrying about self destructing.

Edited January 31, 2022 by K3-19

[Abellia 504]

16 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

After reading this, I think the status Gausses are balanced currently. However, I do agree with removing the crit damage completely. 

As a gauss player myself I will admit the recent EMP status effect buff is overkill. But I think it should be allowed to still group kill hence its primary purpose to use the super shot is to get group kills. 

As for removing crits completely, this could be seen as an indirect buff depending on a persons play style. Why??? You are giving more power to status gauss to be able to destroy people with armadillo easier since armadillo only resists crits. Hence why this can be seen as a buff.

Yeah, but Gauss has double damage crits, so losing crits against an armadillo player isn't actually losing the Gauss anything.

[Abellia 504]

7 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

Also even when removing splash damage completely, this would make a gauss player be more of a threat. why??? Imagine a gauss charging in with the meta drones such as booster or crisis. Lets say I am using crisis and I'm charging in for example. I would be able to raid in with charged shots every single time without a consequence and be able to destroy targets easier. Hence why I also believe removing splash completely is not a great idea especially if its a status gauss. That would be OP

This is why I just killed the distribution of its damage instead of removing splash damage completely. It can still be counterplayed if enemies enter the max damage radius, as you will take the 100% recoil that you are in the radius of.

[Abellia 504]

The purpose of EMP and AP Gauss is to get group status application. There is no reason it should get group kills alongside it if you're trying to balance it to be a mid tier status augment -  and if you want to go the route of it keeping group kills, then you have to remove the splash status application entirely.

I get that you people like your cancer rays - don't worry, they'll still be potent. I'm just trying to equalize cancer rays amongst each other. 

Now some food for thought:

why would there people defending the top tier status augments if they weren't the ones who abused them themselves? 

edit: just realized the other person who left a shrug emoji was yellowghetto, way to prove my point

Edited January 31, 2022 by Abellia

[Abellia 504]

can't wait until someone complains that ap freeze only just got nerfed and it's trash now

[wolverine848 13,097]

11 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

Status gauss already has 25% reduction damage from its sniping damage.  I see no point of removing its splash completely with the effect. However , I do  believe that gauss should have its crits removed completely for its EMP augment and AP. But there is a problem removing them completely, it may indirectly buff gauss players as I have already mentioned above. 

Also even when removing splash damage completely, this would make a gauss player be more of a threat. why??? Imagine a gauss charging in with the meta drones such as booster or crisis. Lets say I am using crisis and I'm charging in for example. I would be able to raid in with charged shots every single time without a consequence and be able to destroy targets easier. Hence why I also believe removing splash completely is not a great idea especially if its a status gauss. That would be OP

I said status Gauss are not designed for group kills.  I don't care how that gets accomplished.  Never said anything about splash.

[Frylock 1,617]

4 hours ago, Abellia said:

This is why I just killed the distribution of its damage instead of removing splash damage completely. It can still be counterplayed if enemies enter the max damage radius, as you will take the 100% recoil that you are in the radius of.

Well it doesn't fully stop a gauss player really in a sense knowing how I play my Gauss...What I would do is raid in with gauss with engineer with owl protection. So when I do charge in and use super shots, I wont take the harsh consequence when using its super shot at point blank. So in a sense removing something or decreasing something like this will indirectly make my play style even better.  I wouldn't even mind if I'm going against single targets. So either way no matter how its nerfed it will not effect my play style. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by MysticBlood

[Abellia 504]

13 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

So either way no matter how its nerfed it will not effect my play style. 

Then why complain about a nerf to begin with?

[Frylock 1,617]

5 minutes ago, Abellia said:

Then why complain about a nerf to begin with?

I say it because I think its overkill and a bit too easy for me to use. I honestly wanted it to have a nerf to challenge myself and make it more fair for others that don't have the right equipment to counter me. But my sole reason is for more balanced gameplay and more skill based strategies. I guess its a dumb reason but I really want more diverse skill based gameplay well being balanced of course. 

Being competitive is what keeps me playing this game no matter what happens. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by MysticBlood

[LambSauce 1,884]

5 hours ago, Abellia said:

Now some food for thought:

why would MysticBlood and yellowghetto defend the top tier status augments if they weren't the ones who abused them themselves? 

Fixed it for you!

[Frylock 1,617]

33 minutes ago, LambSauce said:

Fixed it for you!

Have you even played the game recently? Sometimes I question peoples train of thought or  who thinks that they are entitled to form on an opinion without trying things themselves or think that they don't have to play the game to know the meaning of balance. I have said my piece on why this is so... If you can give a better explanation why this change can or can't work your comment is pointless.  

[LambSauce 1,884]

8 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

Have you even played the game recently? Sometimes I question peoples train of thought or  who thinks that they are entitled to form on an opinion without trying things themselves or think that they don't have to play the game to know the meaning of balance. I have said my piece on why this is so... If you can give a better explanation why this change can or can't work your comment is pointless.  

What does playing the game have to do with recognising forumers who defend obviously OP equipment, like yourself?

In any case, half a year ago you two were still defending Gauss EMP... some things haven't changed.

Edited January 31, 2022 by LambSauce
Grammar

[Abellia 504]

1 hour ago, MysticBlood said:

I say it because I think its overkill and a bit too easy for me to use. I honestly wanted it to have a nerf to challenge myself and make it more fair for others that don't have the right equipment to counter me. But my sole reason is for more balanced gameplay and more skill based strategies. I guess its a dumb reason but I really want more diverse skill based gameplay well being balanced of course. 

Being competitive is what keeps me playing this game no matter what happens. 

Yeah, EMP Gauss is "competitive" alright. Now, why is it banned from esports?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Abellia

[Abellia 504]

1 hour ago, MysticBlood said:

I guess its a dumb reason but I really want more diverse skill based gameplay well being balanced of course. 

Currently that cannot happen if you are using a status augment. They have mechanical advantages, and as such have mechanical counters, not gameplay ones. The counter to an EMP augment is to take EMP Immunity, and the way to balance it with that is to make it worse than stock when the EMP doesn't work.

Coincidentally, what my change does.

If you're chasing skill based gameplay, you do not play status augments. That is not how that works.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Abellia

[Frylock 1,617]

7 minutes ago, LambSauce said:

What does playing the game have to do with recognising forumers who defend obviously OP equipment, like yourself?

In any case, half a year ago you two were still defending Gauss EMP... some things haven't changed.

Whats your definition of balance? Our opinions have changed over the years because the game is always changing. I am just saying what is currently happening at the moment when the changes happen. 

[Frylock 1,617]

2 minutes ago, Abellia said:

Currently that cannot happen if you are using a status augment. They have mechanical advantages, and as such have mechanical counters, not gameplay ones. The counter to an EMP augment is to take EMP Immunity, and the way to balance it with that is to make it worse than stock when the EMP doesn't work.

Coincidentally, what my change does.

If you're chasing skill based gameplay, you do not play status augments. That is not how that works.

I think the main problem does not lay in just status effects. The main problem would be modules. Instead of trying to change the mechanics of a status augment fully or any other augment, they first need to fix how modules currently are. Sure status is a problem but I see modules as a bigger problem. 

[LambSauce 1,884]

2 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

Our opinions have changed over the years because the game is always changing.

But your opinion is exactly the same as last year... still defending that damn EMP Gauss.

[Abellia 504]

1 minute ago, MysticBlood said:

I think the main problem does not lay in just status effects. The main problem would be modules. Instead of trying to change the mechanics of a status augment fully or any other augment, they first need to fix how modules currently are. Sure status is a problem but I see modules as a bigger problem. 

Sorry, what? The only problem with modules currently is the crits and by association Armadillo - also, from the perspective of a farmer, I'd rather fight teams with full protections who are vulnerable to my cancer ray of choice than fight teams that just have immunities and no protections.

Maybe if EMP still reset repair kits you could make this argument just for EMP Gauss and only in a 1v1 scenario, but otherwise - this is nonsense. Hot garbage. A load of dung. A dumpster fire, if you will. Status effects are a much bigger problem than modules.

[LambSauce 1,884]

6 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

I think the main problem does not lay in just status effects. The main problem would be modules. Instead of trying to change the mechanics of a status augment fully or any other augment, they first need to fix how modules currently are. Sure status is a problem but I see modules as a bigger problem. 

Modules are a bigger problem than status effect augments when it comes to balanced gameplay?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how come esports battles have the former enabled and the latter disabled?

[Frylock 1,617]

6 minutes ago, LambSauce said:

Modules are a bigger problem than status effect augments when it comes to balanced gameplay?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how come esports battles have the former enabled and the latter disabled?

I have thought about modules more lately and I wrote in that person's topic recently.  This was my solution to help fix modules.  (Pertaining to modules)

As for status effects yes I see that there needs rework but it would be better if they fixed how modules worked. Then work on status effects next.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by MysticBlood

[Abellia 504]

Just now, MysticBlood said:

I have thought about modules more lately and I wrote in that person's topic recently.  This was my solution to help fix modules.  (Pertaining to modules)

As for status effects yes I see that there needs rework but it would be better if they fixed how modules worked. Then work on status effects next.

 

Now let's think about critical as a status effect similar to burning (potential extra damage and protection ignore) that every turret deals a small amount of and some turrets deal a lot of.
Your argument falls apart.

Now let's think about critical legendary augments versus all the others. Your argument in this case is saying that Blunderbuss singlehandedly causes more problems than all the other status augments combined, which...is not a particularly easily defensible point, to put it simply.

Oh, and before you even think about complaining about status augments that have increased crit damage - the base turrets also have double crit damage and they aren't problematic now, are they?

I get that you're attached to EMP Gauss. Seriously, I get it, I like taking away my opponents rights to exist with Stun Striker, too. No matter how much you love the augment though, you won't convince anyone with common sense to keep it overpowered if your logic boils down to "it's balanced as it is because it gets to ream people" and you throw all the other problems in the way trying to protect it.

If you want to argue that EMP Gauss should stay overpowered, then you don't touch on it at all - you argue that other weaker status augments should be buffed to its level - which is almost as ridiculous as trying to argue it doesn't need a nerf. Almost.

[Abellia 504]

29 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

Whats your definition of balance? Our opinions have changed over the years because the game is always changing. I am just saying what is currently happening at the moment when the changes happen. 

The most balanced legendary augments are the weakest ones (Stun Smoky, AP Magnum) and the most balanced garage augments are the strongest ones (Missile Launcher "Hunter", Adrenaline Firebird/Freeze/Tesla/Vulcan/Smoky, Cryo Smoky).

This should be the default standpoint for everyone who is chasing balance, considering that if you want to get everything as balanced as possible, the first thing you need to do is close gaps between legendary/status augments and garage augments. You can have your own aggregate goals that this is a part of, i.e. reducing general power levels in the game/increasing TTK, where the goal is to bring legendary augment ttk down to the level of garage augment ttk and then lower the average from there, but this should ultimately always be the first step for anyone who genuinely wants to see balance brought to the game.