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Let's Discuss Game Balance


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On 8/29/2020 at 2:26 AM, r_thug121 said:

i have question.

i have enough to get my thunder and hornet to mk6 and i have sledgehammer rounds for thunder. i also have enough crystals to buy scout for rail.

thunder is good for small and medium maps but not for large maps as thunder is a mid range turret . i am pretty good with railgun on long range maps and with scout i can deliver damage like stock thunder and infinite range and a bit faster reload than stock thunder so what do you guys suggest i should do?

In my opinion the rail with scout on a hornet is a very formidable tank when OD is engaged...the rate of fire coupled with DD equals lots of kills. The negative on rail is that you will face a lot of protections...a bit fewer with thunder. I have found that on most maps the Thunder (and I equip Sledgehammer all the time) is a solid choice. Since you like using a hornet, however, the splash damage will really, really hammer your tank too much. You will never harm yourself with a railgun...so the scout would be my call.

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Something needs to be changed with the current balance of Vulcan. At full upgrade Vulcan does 880 damage per second. Vulcan is listed as medium range turret but puts out melee range damage. For reference fully upgraded Isida does 1000 damage per second, and fully upgraded freeze does 900 dmg per second. These are only sightly more than Vulcan, (negligible for freeze), but Vulcan has significantly better vertical aim, aim assist, has unlimited range, and can be fired for longer (Unlimited with the right hull augments.). Developers may argue that Isida and Freeze have other benefits (Healing, Freeze affect) that justify the lower damage, but since the implantation of augments, Vulcan has a similar effect (burning) that used to be reserved only for firebird. What incentive is there for players to use these melee range weapons when there are options that do the same damage with SIGNIFICANTLY more range. When using a small or medium hull without a protection module AND heat immunity you can be damaged for a split second from anywhere on the map, catch on fire and burn to death. Melee level damage should be reserved for Melee weapons. 

 

(All data taken from the Tanki Wiki)

Edited by myfeetaretired
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18 minutes ago, myfeetaretired said:

(All data taken from the Tanki Wiki)

Vulcan has 800 DPS. The firing rate of Mk7+ Vulcan is 55ms and not 50ms. The Wiki hasn't updated the reload time parameter yet. 

 

20 minutes ago, myfeetaretired said:

Something needs to be changed with the current balance of Vulcan. At full upgrade Vulcan does 880 damage per second. Vulcan is listed as medium range turret but puts out melee range damage. For reference fully upgraded Isida does 1000 damage per second, and fully upgraded freeze does 900 dmg per second. These are only sightly more than Vulcan, (negligible for freeze), but Vulcan has significantly better vertical aim, aim assist, has unlimited range, and can be fired for longer (Unlimited with the right hull augments.). Developers may argue that Isida and Freeze have other benefits (Healing, Freeze affect) that justify the lower damage, but since the implantation of augments, Vulcan has a similar effect (burning) that used to be reserved only for firebird. What incentive is there for players to use these melee range weapons when there are options that do the same damage with SIGNIFICANTLY more range. When using a small or medium hull without a protection module AND heat immunity you can be damaged for a split second from anywhere on the map, catch on fire and burn to death. Melee level damage should be reserved for Melee weapons. 

 

(All data taken from the Tanki Wiki)

I think it's in a much better spot now. Keep in mind that that is the maximum DPS possible and not what you will be getting all of the time. Your projectiles need to travel to the target. With the reworked Vulcan, hitting moving enemies at a distance gives you much less DPS than is shown. Vulcan is essentially a short range turret with long range capabilities now. 

 

What are your suggestions for balancing Vulcan? Decreasing its maximum DPS again? If so, how much would you want it to be. Make sure that it is above 690. 

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22 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Vulcan has 800 DPS. The firing rate of Mk7+ Vulcan is 55ms and not 50ms. The Wiki hasn't updated the reload time parameter yet. 

 

I think it's in a much better spot now. Keep in mind that that is the maximum DPS possible and not what you will be getting all of the time. Your projectiles need to travel to the target. With the reworked Vulcan, hitting moving enemies at a distance gives you much less DPS than is shown. Vulcan is essentially a short range turret with long range capabilities now. 

 

What are your suggestions for balancing Vulcan? Decreasing its maximum DPS again? If so, how much would you want it to be. Make sure that it is above 690. 

Good to know that the wiki is out of date. I see what you mean as a short range turret with longer range capabilities. I think the bigger issue for me is the unlimited fire (via heat immunity). I would like to see heat immunity be reserved for incoming damage from other players and not stop the self burning effect. Vertical aim could also be reduced at short ranges to be more in line with other melee weapons. Ignition of other tanks could take slightly longer or not last as long. 

I have not had the chance to use all of Vulcan's augments so I only know some of them from the receiving side. I don't think all of the above changes should be made together as it would likely make vulcan ineffective, but I would like to see one or two of them. A different solution could be boosting Isida and freeze but in general I am a fan of longer times to kill.

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31 minutes ago, myfeetaretired said:

Good to know that the wiki is out of date. I see what you mean as a short range turret with longer range capabilities. I think the bigger issue for me is the unlimited fire (via heat immunity). I would like to see heat immunity be reserved for incoming damage from other players and not stop the self burning effect. Vertical aim could also be reduced at short ranges to be more in line with other melee weapons. Ignition of other tanks could take slightly longer or not last as long. 

I have not had the chance to use all of Vulcan's augments so I only know some of them from the receiving side. I don't think all of the above changes should be made together as it would likely make vulcan ineffective, but I would like to see one or two of them. A different solution could be boosting Isida and freeze but in general I am a fan of longer times to kill.

I personally use Vulcan with for quite a bit of time with Heat Immunity and Incendiary band.

 

For stock Vulcan, since the update of converting Vulcan from hit-scan to projectile weapon, it is unlikely to deal max. DPS (i.e. 800) to moving targets in mid to long range due to the mediocre projectile speed. So on average, the Vulcan DPS is more or less close to what we have previously while dealing with moving target, unless you decided to stand still or charge straight to Vulcan user's position.

 

After equipping Incendiary band, the projectile speed is further decreased by 50%. Now, it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to deal damage to moving targets in mid to long range. Yet, this version of Vulcan is deadly for snipers (Shaft, Gauss, sometime railgun), because they are usually standing still and the DOT effect are not decreased over distance.

 

Equipping Heat Immunity encourage players to constantly firing, especially when players also equip Incendiary band. Yet, the turret rotation speed of Vulcan is reduced by 50% while it is firing. So an enemy coming from behind is extremely deadly for Vulcan.

 

Edited by Aegis

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@enri_chill I just played juggernaut and the enemy team was just killing the team prior to my arrival and players kept leaving (that is how I got put in the game).  Multiple vulcans shooting as well as Juggernaut as ally tanks are spawning.  A good example of a lack of balance.  Tanks equipped with alterations are just taking out the other tanks easily and dominating the map.  Balance is needed to stop tankers from leaving games.  I played a game and an enemy firebird was easily taking out protective domes and other tanks.  Two equivalent tanks with different turrets and the same amount of health should be able to shoot at least once each before they are destroyed.  Yes, the juggernaut is overpowered, but this happens in other game modes too.  From old posts, I thought balance was checked, but I am not sure anymore.

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I have an idea how to balance EMP salvo. The problem with this augment thatt it isn't OP for the player, but gives too big advanages to it's team. 

+ add back splash damage to normal shots

+ -25% damage nerf in charged shots instead 9f -50%

- only takes away the supplies of the user who was charged by the shot, but it still deals damage to the other enemies in the splash ratious.

- can't take away supplies from dictator OD, because that makes it's OD competely useless

-only takes away 2 supplies insteas of 3, the 2 oldest supplies will be selected

-can't take away supplies from drop boxes (so if you first picked up DD from a box, then activated DA and SB, it will take away DA and SB.)

All in all, it will be dealing more damage, but it takes away less suplies, so the players team won't face with a supplyless team. 

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Agree, it is annoying on the receiving side, and allies actually love it, but the for the user, it gives very little advantages.

 

But to be honest, it is still far better than Rubberized rounds which both of them should be in the same league while Rubberized rounds sucks.

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I do agree that EM-salvo must be nerfed, like who does not? I've written down some changes to your idea on how I would balance this augment. 

2 hours ago, mjmj5558 said:

+ add back splash damage to normal shots

[1]   + -25% damage nerf in charged shots instead 9f -50%

- only takes away the supplies of the user who was charged by the shot, but it still deals damage to the other enemies in the splash ratious.

[2]   - can't take away supplies from dictator OD, because that makes it's OD competely useless

[3]   - only takes away 2 supplies insteas of 3, the 2 oldest supplies will be selected

''[2]   - can't take away supplies from drop boxes (so if you first picked up DD from a box, then activated DA and SB, it will take away DA and SB.)

[1]. Damage nerf is already 25%, as the Wiki states. Initially, I was about to say to nerf its damage even more, but since you suggested to only remove the supplies of the targeted user I think 25% is enough. 
[2]. Supplies are supplies, regardless if you activated your own, caught them as boxes or by Dictators OD. It also makes no sense, because how is the one supply different from the other while all of them have the exact same effect? 
[3]. Again, because one player is losing his supplies and not the entire cluster, having three supplies removed seems kind of fair to me. 

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25 minutes ago, BloodPressure said:

I do agree that EM-salvo must be nerfed, like who does not? I've written down some changes to your idea on how I would balance this augment. 

[1]. Damage nerf is already 25%, as the Wiki states. Initially, I was about to say to nerf its damage even more, but since you suggested to only remove the supplies of the targeted user I think 25% is enough. 
[2]. Supplies are supplies, regardless if you activated your own, caught them as boxes or by Dictators OD. It also makes no sense, because how is the one supply different from the other while all of them have the exact same effect? 
[3]. Again, because one player is losing his supplies and not the entire cluster, having three supplies removed seems kind of fair to me. 

I don't think it needs to be nerfed, it needs rework.

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37 minutes ago, BloodPressure said:

[2]. Supplies are supplies, regardless if you activated your own, caught them as boxes or by Dictators OD. It also makes no sense, because how is the one supply different from the other while all of them have the exact same effect? 

Supplies are supplies, but if an OD gives them, they meant to be a special ability. Picking up supplies from boxes are also rare, that's why i thought they should get a special ability.

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Long time haven't use Freeze (my favorite turret),

but when I back to it days ago, I notice that a lot of players using protection against it,, why??

I see its most neglected turret and a little of players who uses it, are you serious guys when you equip a protection against the Freeze

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Every time we enter a new battle, if more than half of players on the opposing team are wearing the same protection module, the number of players wearing that protection module will be reduced until only a maximum of half the players are wearing that protection module.  That way, every single tanker will be able to attack an enemy that doesn't have a protection module against that turret.  Basically, only a maximum of half of the players on your opposing team will be wearing a module against your turret.  Anyone else's module will be deemed useless.

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The modules the enemy uses is a message for you in which turret not to use, especially if they are all equipped with the same module. The modules you don't see or shows up the least on the enemy modules is the turret to use. This pretty much happens in high level battles. Also, you can use Hornet overdrive at times to disable the modules. ?

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39 minutes ago, MurderHornet said:

The modules the enemy uses is a message for you in which turret not to use, especially if they are all equipped with the same module. The modules you don't see or shows up the least on the enemy modules is the turret to use. This pretty much happens in high level battles. Also, you can use Hornet overdrive at times to disable the modules ?

Yes, that's basically what I mean.  

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nah, you should not impose limitation on equipment to players. It is up to the developers to balance the game equipment so that situation occurs as less as possible. However, it is up to you to adapt too, otherwise you remove some strategy opportunity from the game.

Edited by Viking4s
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On 9/15/2020 at 1:19 PM, tankiexpert1 said:

Every time we enter a new battle, if more than half of players on the opposing team are wearing the same protection module, the number of players wearing that protection module will be reduced until only a maximum of half the players are wearing that protection module.  That way, every single tanker will be able to attack an enemy that doesn't have a protection module against that turret.  Basically, only a maximum of half of the players on your opposing team will be wearing a module against your turret.  Anyone else's module will be deemed useless.

Makes no sense the way you've described it.  What does "number of players ... reduced" even mean?

And we don't need limitations on what modules we can use - there are many ways to kill tanks in TO without some kind of limit on the modules.  Hull ODs and drones more than compensate for module use - even if they are at 50%.

Every battle has many different turrets, so odds of someone being protected against multiple enemy tanks has dropped with introduction of many new turrets over time.

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7 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

Makes no sense the way you've described it.  What does "number of players ... reduced" even mean?

Calm down bro

But I can't say anything to you cuz no one understand what he says?

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Hey @Maf @ControlledChaos I don't really know where to put this so I'm just gonna write it here, there should be a couple more topics in this section in my opinion...

"Let's discuss Hopper!"

I think you should have 1 for juggernaut personally:

Either as a "Let's Discuss Juggernaut!"

Or 2 separate sections one for terminator, and one for (I'm not really sure what the hull of it is called so I'm just gonna call it juggernaut) juggernaut.

Thanks!

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