category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[AlphaNinjaGirl 537]

Well, Rico M4 has 12 shots available to shoot before it runs out of energy. It takes around 5.5 seconds to fire all 12 shots in a row. In that time Rico will deal around 420 units of damage (one shot short from killing a Mammoth M4).

Twins M4 deals an average 19 damage per shot with a 0.25 second reload. In the same 5.5 seconds it will fire 22 shots, dealing a total of 418 units of damage.

Now that's a whole TWO UNITS less than Rico, making Ricochet far superior over Twins in any situation.

You've also gotta remember that Rico does have to reload. After you fire your shots, you're gonna have some down-time before you can fire again. Not to mention the fact that you're not guaranteed to hit all of those shots.

 

I actually think Twins is a bit imbalanced, since the sheer amounts of bullets and impact force make driving while being attacked virtually impossible.

[BSG-62 512]

It happens all the time with me too. Vulcan shoots through walls, Smoky kills me after I kill the Smoky, and Railgun hits behind me and causes damage.

 

Usually it's a combination of how good your connection is, your opponent's connection, and the Tanki server itself. But the guy who shot you did actually land the shot, it just didn't show on your computer until a half second later.

Same! However, that happens even on a good day with 40-50 FPS and Ping under 250. 

 

 

I run at a stable connection, so lag might not be it.

It happens with Railguns too, if that helps.

I get hit by railguns that miss by maybe 1/5 of tank length. It's been happening a lot and i've also found that after the New Year celebrations, i will take damage from a railgun sometimes even after hide i behind a wall and the railgun fires after i hide.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Well, I'm joking - I know it's almost no difference, but that was actually news to me. I though Rico dealt a lot more damage with the first 12 shots than Twins in the same amount of time. Still, Ricochet's main advantages are the greater speed of its projectiles and a much greater range. Twins is a short-range gun. Medium only for stationary and slow tanks, while Rico can hit almost any moving target. That's what makes Ricochet more powerful.

Yes - when I first discovered that, it was news to me as well.

As I already wrote, Rico can outclass twinns only in long range situations and when it makes use of the bouce-feature on short range.. so we seem to have a common line here.

I consider ourselfs lucky, that there are not so many agile Viking-M4-twinners with excelent aim out there... else they would literaly rip through defenses with some isida support.

 

You've also gotta remember that Rico does have to reload. After you fire your shots, you're gonna have some down-time before you can fire again. Not to mention the fact that you're not guaranteed to hit all of those shots.

 

I actually think Twins is a bit imbalanced, since the sheer amounts of bullets and impact force make driving while being attacked virtually impossible.

If I remember you correct, you favor firebird.. don't you?

Because.. if yes.. then you use your disadvantage (have to get close up) against a Twinners advantage (more damage, impact and easier aim at short distances). You are simply the wrong turret to encounter him, until you have some buddy that distracts him for you in advance.

It is like I (wasp rail) cant fight a smokey on close range combat. I have to spot them at long range and waken them in advance.

 

I think you shoud pair up with a medium/longrange tank in your attacks.. like a Thunder. Your Thunder mate would take out or weaken the twinners from one side of their base, all look and move into his direction / firebird jumps in to roast the remainings on his side of the base and snags the flag (if you are just two.. else firebird usually stays for distraction and blocks with his alive or dead tank, while a 3rd tank snags their flag).

[MrCheezyPotato 850]

Well, Rico M4 has 12 shots available to shoot before it runs out of energy. It takes around 5.5 seconds to fire all 12 shots in a row. In that time Rico will deal around 420 units of damage (one shot short from killing a Mammoth M4).

Twins M4 deals an average 19 damage per shot with a 0.25 second reload. In the same 5.5 seconds it will fire 22 shots, dealing a total of 418 units of damage.

Now that's a whole TWO UNITS less than Rico, making Ricochet far superior over Twins in any situation.

 

 

Well, I'm joking - I know it's almost no difference, but that was actually news to me. I though Rico dealt a lot more damage with the first 12 shots than Twins in the same amount of time. Still, Ricochet's main advantages are the greater speed of its projectiles and a much greater range. Twins is a short-range gun. Medium only for stationary and slow tanks, while Rico can hit almost any moving target. That's what makes Ricochet more powerful.

Thats(probably) a bit inaccurate. Because of RIco projectile speed is much greater, in 5.5 seconds it will do more damage than 420. Unless you calculated the distance to damage reducing, and the projectile speeds of the two, that data is not correct(unless its at point blank range)

Then Rico also has the impact force. If you hit a trigger happy twins/hornet correctly, their front end will go up a bit and their shooting will keep it up a split second longer, and thats when you hit them the second time. that gives the Rico an an advantage. Plus, the Rico does more damage in proportion to distance than twins too, so if they are shooting at each other from 60 units, and neither are evading each others shots, the Rico will most likely win depending on the hulls. Wasp-Viking will probably end up with Rico winning, while Dictator-mammy could be twins. In  real battle, Rico/wasp would probably win over twins dictator if it could sneak up behind it and hide in dictators blind spot. Mammy is obvious, just avoid it. titan is the same way. Twins is really just a defensive turret/attacker of big clumps of noobs, while Ricochet is much more versatile. Both turrets are good, though Rico requires more skill. I think that Rico is much better than Twins(at m0, and m2, idk about m3, and rico m1 is almost exactly the same as m0 while twins m1 is pretty op), even if their damage output is very similar.

Edited January 22, 2016 by MrCheezyPotato

[Maf 32,300]

Thats(probably) a bit inaccurate. Because of RIco projectile speed is much greater, in 5.5 seconds it will do more damage than 420. Unless you calculated the distance to damage reducing, and the projectile speeds of the two, that data is not correct(unless its at point blank range)

I assume it's point blank range. I could be a LOT more specific, for example the 5.5 seconds were calculated with a simple timer, whereas I could do it using ingergation of the the energy expenditure and recharge time values, but I think that's unnecessary considering the amount of other errors that can affect the results.

 

To keep it simple, we can assume that Ricochet and Twins are completely equal at point blank range, but on a greater distance we notice that rico:

+ Has faster projectiles

+ Has greater impact force (potential to knock off aim)

+ Ability to ricochet from surfaces

+ Greater range

- Runs out of energy

 

I think the fact that it only has enough energy for 12 quick shots is a great disadvantage, but not enough to compensate for the advantages, making Ricochet a more powerful weapon overall.

 

[Strawwitz 86]

It happens all the time with me too. Vulcan shoots through walls, Smoky kills me after I kill the Smoky, and Railgun hits behind me and causes damage.

 

Usually it's a combination of how good your connection is, your opponent's connection, and the Tanki server itself. But the guy who shot you did actually land the shot, it just didn't show on your computer until a half second later.

I don't quite think so. Although your " connection and server" mentions are qualifiers ers for  what he was talking about .The nature of the way railgun "shoots" in the this game and the movement of the tanks  , there are built in "lag" factors built in for it .  At the point of the shot there can be a 5 -45 degree cone where rail gun will hit even though it is not on target and/or there are intervening obstacles in the way.

Lag of course can have something to do with "impossible" shots for any weapon, but with some(in fact all)  there is a built in compensation  for lag even if lag is not there in any amounts that would affect playability.  All weapons have this at times , it is just more blatantly noticeable with weapons like Vulcan and Railgun.  IMO it reflects limitations of the program  and the servers of the game  and  then corrections factors in built into program to adjust for these. At times it looks like and is overcompensation for lag and not "lag" as is known.  

 

Call it "rounding"  and sometimes you see where .5 or .6 should not round to 1. so to speak. It is a game deal with it. Even in real life "shooting" never will you see two shots hit the "same" hole. There is always some "half-mooning" present whether you see it or not.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Strawwitz

[Lord-of-the-Snipers 1,620]

 

I don't quite think so. Although your " connection and server" mentions are qualifiers ers for  what he was talking about .The nature of the way railgun "shoots" in the this game and the movement of the tanks  , there are built in "lag" factors built in for it .  At the point of the shot there can be a 5 -45 degree cone where rail gun will hit even though it is not on target and/or there are intervening obstacles in the way.

Lag of course can have something to do with "impossible" shots for any weapon, but with some(in fact all)  there is a built in compensation  for lag even if lag is not there in any amounts that would affect playability.  All weapons have this at times , it is just more blatantly noticeable with weapons like Vulcan and Railgun.  IMO it reflects limitations of the program  and the servers of the game  and  then corrections factors in built into program to adjust for these. At times it looks like and is overcompensation for lag and not "lag" as is known.  

 

Call it "rounding"  and sometimes you see where .5 or .6 should not round to 1. so to speak. It is a game deal with it. Even in real life "shooting" never will you see two shots hit the "same" hole. There is always some "half-mooning" present whether you see it or not.

 

100% agreed. It gets explained like "lag" on the forum and that 's not true.

Weapons like Rail and even more blatant Vulcan do this all the time.

 

Vulcan is constantly able to shoot through corners, so this has indeed nothing to do with lag.

[MrCheezyPotato 850]

100% agreed. It gets explained like "lag" on the forum and that 's not true.

Weapons like Rail and even more blatant Vulcan do this all the time.

 

Vulcan is constantly able to shoot through corners, so this has indeed nothing to do with lag.

Iv known about that with railgun for a long time...i hate it...im always hit on ramps in Monte Carlos, although i never knew about vulcan being able to do that too...i guess thats a big reason why its op...mods should fix that, even though thats not even a bug. Or at least make its bullets bigger so that it doesent seem so obvious...maybe reduce impact force on the the target tank too...

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

 

 

I don't quite think so. Although your " connection and server" mentions are qualifiers ers for  what he was talking about .The nature of the way railgun "shoots" in the this game and the movement of the tanks  , there are built in "lag" factors built in for it .  At the point of the shot there can be a 5 -45 degree cone where rail gun will hit even though it is not on target and/or there are intervening obstacles in the way.

Lag of course can have something to do with "impossible" shots for any weapon, but with some(in fact all)  there is a built in compensation  for lag even if lag is not there in any amounts that would affect playability.  All weapons have this at times , it is just more blatantly noticeable with weapons like Vulcan and Railgun.  IMO it reflects limitations of the program  and the servers of the game  and  then corrections factors in built into program to adjust for these. At times it looks like and is overcompensation for lag and not "lag" as is known.  

 

 

Call it "rounding"  and sometimes you see where .5 or .6 should not round to 1. so to speak. It is a game deal with it. Even in real life "shooting" never will you see two shots hit the "same" hole. There is always some "half-mooning" present whether you see it or not.

I don't know how _this_ game is coded, but I expect it to work a little bit different:

 

 

you move..

If you push the keys to move your tank around, the info about the changed location is sent to the server, analysed, forwarded to all others players.

Then (and not before) he will see your movement on his screen.

But this location data is not send for each and every pixel you move.. this would totally overload the lines. But if they are sent less freqeuntly, the tanks would not move continously.. but jump from one reported position to the next reported position.

So they use a clever trick: they transmit your current position as well as the direction you are moving as well as speed and turning rates every.. lets say 0,5 seconds. If you press/release a key, then they give an immediate update. The receiving client (your enemys computer) will use this info to move your picture of your tank _continously_ on the enemies screen (called extrapolation).

 

So what your enemy does _see_, is in fact a very clever and educated guess of your position, based on the keys and controlls you pushed about 0,050s..0,300s ago. As long as the delays on the network and in the servers are low, this works awesome and efficient - in most cases.

 

then he shots at you.

Means the shooter sends a message to the server, telling that at _his_ (!) screen: he has hit(!) Tank#8, at that time-index, at this location, at this location at the hull of that target - or he has hit no tank, but instead hit a wall or building at this coordinates (creates shotmarks at wall..). Remember that he shot at the picture of your tank at his screen, which was in fact a slightly outdated position. But the clue is, that it makes no difference in the open field. I a player hits you at his screen, he was skilled enough to hit you - fair and square.

 

The server verifies the shot - meaning some data like >did the user keep the reload time, >was a building in between (his position and your outdated position) - all such hack prevention stuff. If most things are alright, then the server will deduct the results (shotmarks, impact force effects, tank blows up, ..) forward this message to all other players, in order to visualise the results.

Also to you. So the server tells you, if the enemy has hit you. To be more precise: if the enemy has hit your picture on his screen, at the outdated position, some time ago. So your client in the browser "draws" the effect. If a smoky hits you, you shake.. if fire burns, you see the flames. That he has hit you at an outdated position makes no difference as it does not matter. The only times problems occure are:

- if shots leave a trace in the air

- if you moved behind a hideout in the meanwhile

 

The shot hits you behind the corner

So you feel save behind your corner on your (!) screen now (!). Then you receive the message, that an enemy landed a hit on you - remember that this was already some time ago. At the moment in the past, as he made the shot, you have been still outside your hide on the shooters (!) screen. And he saw it hit. Of course he hit you some time ago, at a position that was already outdated and so even older.

But you receive the message, and so this old hit is visualised now.

But as a railshot or a vulcan shot are a straight line from his tank to yours.. this visualisation may cut right through the edge of your hideout.

 

Turrets point somewhere else

Same reason for the turret of tanks, that points left, and shots straight.

On the enemies screen the turret was straight.. but the info about that has not reached your browser client in time.. you missed the turret info, as then suddenly the shot-info arrived and was visualised

 

 

 

 

And all that effects together make the things look different at the different players screen.. and those effects are called "lag".

They are effected

- by the ping time for the upload of player actions to the server

- by the server processing power and load status (some daysall players in my battles have a ping less then 50, but it feels like 300. Then the connections are good.. but the server in between takes up to much time because of overload - to many players on the server).

- by the ping time for the downstream of server results towards the players

Edited January 24, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[arun24 6]

Hello tankers,

I think it is time for a change. I had quit Tanki Online for 3 months, and when I came back there were many improvements. However, there are still a lot of things that can be improved.

           

First of all, I noticed that Smoky has received a major “critical” update. The critical shots happen more often. This is so common that I die within the third shot of being attacked by a Smoky (M2). For those of you who will claim that I am biased, please think again as I am actually saving for the Paladin Kit. Many of you will say to get a paint, which is something I plan to do. However, Thunder and Twins are also turrets that are very annoying and require you to have a paint in order to survive for more than the average time it takes to kill a tank. Emerald is a good choice, and Savanna is better than Needle in terms of value, but has anyone considered how expensive those paints are? Smoky and Thunder both have this strong knockback “punch” and I’m pretty sure that those paints don’t do anything against the punch.

Suggestions

 

1.    Decrease the chance of Smoky’s critical hit. It happens too often and when on double power, it’s very deadly. There is no need to nerf it, there just needs to be a balance in the current gameplay.

2.    Decrease the punch that both Thunder and Smoky have. If anything Ricochet should have that strong of a punch because of its rapid firing rate. 

 

 

 

Second of all, there is a major problem with Hunter. Ever since the swap between Hunter and Viking’s weight, Hunter has become “puny” and inferior. I have used Hunter, and it happens to be my second favorite hull, however it can be pushed by any hull. With what I have experienced, pushing a Wasp is harder than it seems. The weight removal of Hunter has compromised performance and value. Hunter can now be very easily flipped, pushed and the position can be changed by any little impact. Catching Gold boxes is a problem because of the fact that Hunter is pushed so easily without much force needed.

Suggestions

1.    Balance out the weight between Hunter and Viking. After all Hunter is a medium hull and should be able to push light hulls. Light hulls should be pushed by Hunter, not vice versa.

2.    Add a little bit more speed to use the drifting technique to its full advantage.

3.    The health of M2 and M1 Hunter should be increased by at least 10%. They are inferior to other hulls and rely on double armor to survive the most annoying guns in Tanki Online

 

 

Third of all, Shaft is OP. I have said in the past, and I will say it again. I understand that nerfing the turret completely would make it inferior and return it back to the days when it was unpopular.

Suggestions

1.    Increase the size of the crosshair.

2.    Fill in the area surrounding the circumference of the crosshair with a black or opaque color. This will help balance the turrets high damage because they will only be able to see what’s directly in the scope.

3.    Decrease the damage of the “arcade” shot. Decreasing the reload time wouldn’t make much sense because then Shaft would not be able to defend itself in short ranges. Currently when shaft hits a light or medium hull with an arcade shot, ½ or 1/3 of the health will be taken respectively.

 

Please keep in mind that none of these ideas are biased and that they are based on what I have experienced. Yes, buying paints will help the situation, however paints with maximum protection against one turret are very expensive and offer puny protection from other turrets. Take for example, Inferno. It has high protection against Freeze or Firebird, but very minimum protection against Twins.

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by arun24

[fordmustang12345 3,910]

Seriously you are goin to b**** about my favorite turrets? Learn to deal with it and get some freaking skills please and if a m2 smoky can kill u in three shots then think that the m2 smoky might be fully MUed cause I have a friend who has stock m2 smoky (fully MUed m1 smoky ) and my m1 mammoth can take about 5-6 shots from her smoky

[fordmustang12345 3,910]

And shaft is already nerfed cause of the laser and if they nerfed it anymore they might as well remove it all together cause no one would use it

[BSG-62 512]

Thunder? Really? It is the most underpowered turret right now.

Shaft is fine.

Ricochet already has massive impact force, that should stay as it is or drop.

I agree with what you said about Smokey. The critical damage happens too often.

[arun24 6]

Seriously you are goin to b**** about my favorite turrets? Learn to deal with it and get some freaking skills please and if a m2 smoky can kill u in three shots then think that the m2 smoky might be fully MUed cause I have a friend who has stock m2 smoky (fully MUed m1 smoky ) and my m1 mammoth can take about 5-6 shots from her smoky

I love how this shows my ignorance in the past. First of all, thank you for being rude. Second of all... I have been dealing with this since 2012. Please do the math. Interesting concept of how a stock M1 Mammoth can take all of those shots... maybe you have a paint, maybe you have micro upgrades, and maybe you should be more specific as to why you can survive all of those shots. You obviously misread what was stated, as I had said that critical shots have had a boost and happens too often, and can be a pain to deal with when on double power. You clearly skimmed through what was said and being ignorant, decided it would be best to "come back" at me with some very immature responses.

 

And shaft is already nerfed cause of the laser and if they nerfed it anymore they might as well remove it all together cause no one would use it

You must be stuck in the past. You clearly don't even watch the V-Logs (not saying that you have to, but maybe it would help you since they have something called "Pro's advice"). There are ways around the laser. In the past I was told by many, that a main characteristic of the laser was to cause fear to the opponent.

[arun24 6]

Thunder? Really? It is the most underpowered turret right now.

Shaft is fine.

Ricochet already has massive impact force, that should stay as it is or drop.

I agree with what you said about Smokey. The critical damage happens too often.

At your rank, yes. Thunder is under powered. At my rank, not even Cedar helps. Thunder is a very common turret because of the Bulldozer and Raiden kits. Saying that it is the most under powered is false. You can believe what you want, but in my opinion, ever since the nerf of Freeze, it has been the most under powered turret. Ask anyone who has been around Tanki Online since the first major Balancing of Turrets and Hulls update, of 2015. 

 

Ricochet may have a massive punch. However it runs out of plasma too quickly and its aim is knocked off pretty easily.

 

Thank you for your support, please make sure to vote in the poll if you do really agree.

[dilsharox 2,395]

Thunder is balanced and smoky and shaft are powerful but not OP

I don't much about Hunter bcuz I haven't used it

[BSG-62 512]

At your rank, yes. Thunder is under powered. At my rank, not even Cedar helps. Thunder is a very common turret because of the Bulldozer and Raiden kits. Saying that it is the most under powered is false. You can believe what you want, but in my opinion, ever since the nerf of Freeze, it has been the most under powered turret. Ask anyone who has been around Tanki Online since the first major Balancing of Turrets and Hulls update, of 2015. 

 

Ricochet may have a massive punch. However it runs out of plasma too quickly and its aim is knocked off pretty easily.

 

Thank you for your support, please make sure to vote in the poll if you do really agree.

Yes, i was around at the time of that rebalance. I noticed that Freeze was no longer OP in terms of damage but the freeze time and rate was very irritating. 

 

True, very true that Ricochet runs out of plasma quickly but the thing is, using an hull other than heavy or Viking means your aim is knocked off before you can shoot. So, yes it is easy to knock off aim but it's hard to actually get a chance to do that. Also, the high firing rate kind of negates that. Not fully (like Twins) but kind of still.

[arun24 6]

Yes, i was around at the time of that rebalance. I noticed that Freeze was no longer OP in terms of damage but the freeze time and rate was very irritating. 

 

True, very true that Ricochet runs out of plasma quickly but the thing is, using an hull other than heavy or Viking means your aim is knocked off before you can shoot. So, yes it is easy to knock off aim but it's hard to actually get a chance to do that. Also, the high firing rate kind of negates that. Not fully (like Twins) but kind of still.

A stock Ricochet can kills hulls starting from a base of 5 shots. As you move up the shots needed to destroy a tank are increased. 5 for Wasp, 6 for Hornet, 7 for Hunter, 8 for Viking, 10 for Dictator, 12 for Titan, 14 for Mammoth... Someone correct me if I got any of those wrong... FOR STOCK MODELS ONLY.

[fordmustang12345 3,910]

I love how this shows my ignorance in the past. First of all, thank you for being rude. Second of all... I have been dealing with this since 2012. Please do the math. Interesting concept of how a stock M1 Mammoth can take all of those shots... maybe you have a paint, maybe you have micro upgrades, and maybe you should be more specific as to why you can survive all of those shots. You obviously misread what was stated, as I had said that critical shots have had a boost and happens too often, and can be a pain to deal with when on double power. You clearly skimmed through what was said and being ignorant, decided it would be best to "come back" at me with some very immature responses.

 

You must be stuck in the past. You clearly don't even watch the V-Logs (not saying that you have to, but maybe it would help you since they have something called "Pro's advice"). There are ways around the laser. In the past I was told by many, that a main characteristic of the laser was to cause fear to the opponent.

I have a 13% paint (big whoop) and no micro upgrades. You just have no skill or tactics against these weapons. I on the other hand have adapted to these turrets and have lots of tactics against them

[BSG-62 512]

A stock Ricochet can kills hulls starting from a base of 5 shots. As you move up the shots needed to destroy a tank are increased. 5 for Wasp, 6 for Hornet, 7 for Hunter, 8 for Viking, 10 for Dictator, 12 for Titan, 14 for Mammoth... Someone correct me if I got any of those wrong... FOR STOCK MODELS ONLY.

I think it's more like 9 for a mued Dictator. I think it's 8 for stock.

Edited January 24, 2016 by BSG-62

[arun24 6]

I have a 13% paint (big whoop) and no micro upgrades. You just have no skill or tactics against these weapons. I on the other hand have adapted to these turrets and have lots of tactics against them

This is cute, look at your rank and look at mine... who do you think deals with mass drugging and M3 opponents?

[arun24 6]

I think it's more like 9 for a mued Dictator. I think it's 8 for stock.

No, Dictator is the third strongest hull in Tanki Online, it would make sense to have it to be for more than 8 shots. Otherwise Dictator would be its own slug.

[The-Operator219 1,929]

This is cute, look at your rank and look at mine... who do you think deals with mass drugging and M3 opponents?

Who do you think deals with former Generalisimos and mass drugging?

A DDed M1 Smoky can kill a M0 Hornet in one shot.

[arun24 6]

Who do you think deals with former Generalisimos and mass drugging?

A DDed M1 Smoky can kill a M0 Hornet in one shot.

I am well aware of that... A critical hit is worth about 3 shots.

[fordmustang12345 3,910]

This is cute, look at your rank and look at mine... who do you think deals with mass drugging and M3 opponents?

I may not fact M3s yet but I do face mass drugging alot (especially by those stinger and tornado kits)