category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[Frylock 1,617]

12 hours ago, Abellia said:

Incendiary Railgun – Incendiary Railgun has a double dependency as a result of the critical + heating, but it is, like all railguns, weakened as a result. I think Incendiary Railgun is potent, yes, but it falls short in terms of utility – it doesn’t compare to the 10 meter bogus radius of EMP Gauss, which isn’t even taking into account that EMP and AP are much stronger status than heating as they do not have real counterplay besides waiting them out, while heating has counterplay through waiting before you repair kit and the onus is on the heating player to continuously apply pressure – which Incendiary Railgun cannot do. I would place Incendiary Railgun just below EMP Gauss – on one of my alts which has both, they play comparatively at a mid-rank level, but Heating as a status just doesn’t scale as well going into the high ranks, as a result of the urgency to use a repair kit for heating damage decreasing to hull health going up.

I myself use Railgun a lot and my most used turret. I can say that incendiary rounds can perform slightly better than EMP gauss.  The fact that I can peek corners and shoot is a lot more effective for one since it can instant hit. Secondly, it honestly depends on how the player uses the augment. Also a gauss player would have to reset its lock on every time a player hides behind the wall. Thus why I put incendiary rail a little higher than EMP gauss because of the easy peek and shoot tactic. I find the peak and shoot tactic more annoying than a status gauss trying to lock onto me. 

 

13 hours ago, Abellia said:

Cryo Twins – it has a range limit, it applies its status cumulatively rather than instant capping out and then degradation like EMP/AP and so cannot apply its status effectively to groups. Also, it straightup kills slower than EMP Gauss does, and Cryo is barely an advantage over EMP when it comes to blocking enemy damage output – maybe you meant stun twins? Trying to call cryo twins stronger than status gausses is… comical, to say the least.

No you would be surprised how much better cryo twins is. I have noticed a recent freeze status buff that now instantly freezes the target for all cryo augments. Despite cryo twins having limited range, the fire rate along with the instant freezing makes it more potent. Hell even I can say Freezing tesla is better than status gauss. 

 

13 hours ago, Abellia said:

Jamming Hammer – It can debatably get comparable utility, it depends on who you’re fighting, but it has no chance in hell of comparing to status Gausses. It gives you constant mediocre utility against most players, and constant relevant utility against some players. However, it doesn’t significantly boost kill power against most players, compared to stock, and given that its effectiveness depends on your enemies using one of four drones (which can still be countered by augments with other status effects, except they work on the rest of the drones)…yeah no. This doesn’t beat a status Gauss.

You should really see how I play my Jamming hammer. Jamming hammer is my personal favorite augment. The fact that I can disable drones for a short amount of time especially rendering lifeguard and blaster useless and canceling out Boosted damage, Armor, and speed bonuses and preventing others to use their OD makes makes this thing so deadly. Also this thing is a nightmare to go against especially if you jam lock them.  Hence why I think jamming hammer is more threatening than status gauss. Also when I use this augment I don't use the 4 drones, I use the Engineer drone with jamming hammer especially if I'm the type of player to raid into bases. Engineer is really handy for recovery well charging in. Personally why I think Jamming hammer ranks higher than status gauss. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

Face it MANY of the status turret augments are OP.

Since we mostly play team battles...

1) we can't protect ourselves against majority of statuses

2) Once hit with a status you are probably destroyed shortly after.  If not by the one giving you status, then by one of the many team-mates of that person.  Except for OP hulls like Paladin, even the heavy hulls don't last long in this game.

Game is now designed for people with short attention spans and little imagination in the way of strategy.

[YANUKFIN 493]

1 hour ago, wolverine848 said:

even the heavy hulls don't last long in this game.

Heavy hulls are a joke. They are supposed to give you a better chance of surviving but do nothing of the sort.  

 see the children are on their usual form.

Edited February 2, 2022 by YANUKFIN

[alkyng 3,080]

1 hour ago, MysticBlood said:

 

Like I said to someone before, don't say OP for anything to not make people mix what's really OP (EMP Gauss) with the not even OP. 

Incendiary Rounds can't be more than a joke, it applies status effect for criticals (50%), not always like EMP Gauss, it doesn't have 10m radius (or even 20m), burning status effect is never comparable to EMP it can be cut to half with DA and more with Defender, and can go with RK easily.

And when you say Jamming disable Drones? Ok even EMP disable Drones, except a few ones. The only additional point Jammer have, it can disable OD. But honestly no one would use his OD when he have EMP on him. No comparison

Edited February 2, 2022 by asem.harbi

[alkyng 3,080]

@MysticBlood LOL you are ready to give me Shrug even before you read?   I should report you for spam

[LambSauce 1,884]

5 minutes ago, asem.harbi said:

@MysticBlood LOL you are ready to give me Shrug even before you read?   I should report you for spam

With both accounts as well.

More and more I get the feeling that that is simply one person with two accounts.

[flyingfire 10]

I agree with you about the emp freeze. I used it and it’s strong. But ap freeze that got nerfed is now bad. I don’t know if you played with any of those augment but I spent a lot of time playing with ap freeze and after the  nerf I see my self using adrenaline or high pressure pump more. They nerfed toxic freeze to the ground. It already deals less damage and take more time to kill. The only advantage with ap freeze is against crisis and defender users. People with crisis are indestructible and ap freeze and other ap augment are the only chance against them. I do t use jamming mix and I don’t know if it’s any good but emp mix is op. Now what’s the point of nerfing legendary augments and make them bad? There is a reason why you can’t buy them for crystals and when they nerf them ,the augment that you can buy for crystals become as good as legendary augment.

[wolverine848 13,097]

44 minutes ago, YANUKFIN said:

Heavy hulls are a joke. They are supposed to give you a better chance of surviving but do nothing of the sort.  

Agreed.

They are much slower, but really might offer 1 extra second of survivability in a battle.

Doesn't seem the trade-off of speed for armor is much worth it when a wasp armed with certain augments can destroy you in 2 seconds.

The only reason to equip heavy hulls is if you want that OverDrive for a specific strategy.  The hull itself... meh.

[wolverine848 13,097]

6 minutes ago, flyingfire said:

But ap freeze that got nerfed is now bad. I don’t know if you played with any of those augment but I spent a lot of time playing with ap freeze and after the  nerf I see my self using adrenaline or high pressure pump more. They nerfed toxic freeze to the ground. It already deals less damage and take more time to kill.

What?

AP freeze still does 100%+ damage on criticals.  How much damage you need?

With no armor or module protection enemies don't last long at all  Even if YOU don't make the kill one your team-mates surely will.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

15 minutes ago, flyingfire said:

And when you nerf them, the augment that you can buy for crystals become as good as legendary augment.

And that's a bad thing? 

[Abellia 504]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:15 AM, Abellia said:

can't wait until someone complains that ap freeze only just got nerfed and it's trash now

LMFAO

[flyingfire 10]

@wolverine848 on critical hit with mk6 ap freeze I do 512 damage per tick. Without ap I do 1,120 per tick. I’m not asking to increase the critical hit I’m asking to increase damage or ap duration. For you to compare normal mk6 freeze does like about  280- 314 damage per tick with ap freeze I do 186 damage. I just ask to give maybe 200 damage per tick for ap freeze.

[Abellia 504]

2 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

15 hours ago, Abellia said:

Incendiary Railgun – Incendiary Railgun has a double dependency as a result of the critical + heating, but it is, like all railguns, weakened as a result. I think Incendiary Railgun is potent, yes, but it falls short in terms of utility – it doesn’t compare to the 10 meter bogus radius of EMP Gauss, which isn’t even taking into account that EMP and AP are much stronger status than heating as they do not have real counterplay besides waiting them out, while heating has counterplay through waiting before you repair kit and the onus is on the heating player to continuously apply pressure – which Incendiary Railgun cannot do. I would place Incendiary Railgun just below EMP Gauss – on one of my alts which has both, they play comparatively at a mid-rank level, but Heating as a status just doesn’t scale as well going into the high ranks, as a result of the urgency to use a repair kit for heating damage decreasing to hull health going up.

Read more  

I myself use Railgun a lot and my most used turret. I can say that incendiary rounds can perform slightly better than EMP gauss.  The fact that I can peek corners and shoot is a lot more effective for one since it can instant hit. Secondly, it honestly depends on how the player uses the augment. Also a gauss player would have to reset its lock on every time a player hides behind the wall. Thus why I put incendiary rail a little higher than EMP gauss because of the easy peek and shoot tactic. I find the peak and shoot tactic more annoying than a status gauss trying to lock onto me. 

 

15 hours ago, Abellia said:

Cryo Twins – it has a range limit, it applies its status cumulatively rather than instant capping out and then degradation like EMP/AP and so cannot apply its status effectively to groups. Also, it straightup kills slower than EMP Gauss does, and Cryo is barely an advantage over EMP when it comes to blocking enemy damage output – maybe you meant stun twins? Trying to call cryo twins stronger than status gausses is… comical, to say the least.

No you would be surprised how much better cryo twins is. I have noticed a recent freeze status buff that now instantly freezes the target for all cryo augments. Despite cryo twins having limited range, the fire rate along with the instant freezing makes it more potent. Hell even I can say Freezing tesla is better than status gauss. 

 

15 hours ago, Abellia said:

Jamming Hammer – It can debatably get comparable utility, it depends on who you’re fighting, but it has no chance in hell of comparing to status Gausses. It gives you constant mediocre utility against most players, and constant relevant utility against some players. However, it doesn’t significantly boost kill power against most players, compared to stock, and given that its effectiveness depends on your enemies using one of four drones (which can still be countered by augments with other status effects, except they work on the rest of the drones)…yeah no. This doesn’t beat a status Gauss.

You should really see how I play my Jamming hammer. Jamming hammer is my personal favorite augment. The fact that I can disable drones for a short amount of time especially rendering lifeguard and blaster useless and canceling out Boosted damage, Armor, and speed bonuses and preventing others to use their OD makes makes this thing so deadly. Also this thing is a nightmare to go against especially if you jam lock them.  Hence why I think jamming hammer is more threatening than status gauss. Also when I use this augment I don't use the 4 drones, I use the Engineer drone with jamming hammer especially if I'm the type of player to raid into bases. Engineer is really handy for recovery well charging in. Personally why I think Jamming hammer ranks higher than status gauss. 

I don't think Incendiary Rail ranks above status Gausses. Even with the peeking, you've gotta deal with the fact heating is simply a weaker status than EMP is. Also, EMP Gauss can much more easily punish players who attempt to peek against it with arcade shots, whereas Incendiary Railgun basically has to wait. In practice, Incendiary Railgun is just a stronger version of Round Destabilization that has DoT rather than an instant high damage hit - while it's strong, it just versatility in its application of power and its utility. Pretty much the same as what I said about EMP Rail, just with a weaker status - rather than needing luck to punish its crit like EMP, it doesn't get to at all, it just forces your target to either use their repair kit or eat extra damage.

As for Cryo Twins - I don't think there really was a freezing buff. Cryo Twins always had -50% per crit, as far as I'm aware, and all the other single shot cryo augments have always been -100% per crit (except for Cryo Rail in the tiny amount of time it existed before the critical update, but...whatever.) Again though, this doesn't solve that Cryo Twins is simply not as efficient as EMP Gauss is, with a weaker status, range limitation and less effective group application of said status. It might be better in a 1v1 sense, but as far as general matchmaking utility, I'm certain EMP Gauss is going to be more useful.

As for Jamming Hammer - it's great in groups because it has ridiculous status uptime and the ability to distribute it to groups, but the problem is that Jamming simply doesn't do anything in a lot of scenarios - against say, an Assault player without their overdrive up, all you're doing is stopping them from getting a faster reset on their supplies - which isn't a whole lot, they still get infinite double damage. I really wouldn't rank Jamming Hammer higher than status Gauss as a solo augment, and I'd say they're pretty equal depending on opponent and map in a group.

Again, though:

15 hours ago, Abellia said:

even if status Gausses are b tier, why don't they need a nerf? There are "d tier" legendary augments that compete with the garage options or only just beat them, and that is what we should be aiming to nerf them to - comparable to the garage options, with extra steps needed to counters them, and harder counters available as a result.

Status Gausses, statistically speaking, are still comparable to stock and Adrenaline Gauss when all counters are in play for both of them, and they are stronger than Stock and Adrenaline Gauss when both are in optimal conditions. Shouldn't this mean they need a nerf?

[flyingfire 10]

@Abellia lol you knew it. But I just saw the problem and addressed it. They turned ap freeze from attacking turret to a great defensive turret. I don’t really like that. Freeze is for attacking.

[Abellia 504]

1 minute ago, flyingfire said:

@Abellia lol you knew it. But I just saw the problem and addressed it. They turned ap freeze from attacking turret to a great defensive turret. I don’t really like that. Freeze is for attacking.

Tell me, do you understand what it means for a piece of equipment to be balanced?

There is no problem with AP Freeze, it's still a double status piece of equipment. It literally cannot be bad unless it has a full dependency on said statuses - which it can't because it has two of them. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Abellia

[flyingfire 10]

Just now, Abellia said:

Tell me, do you understand what it means for a piece of equipment to be balanced?

Yeah I do. But did you use ap freeze? Yeah before the nerf it was op and unbalanced but now they nerfed it to much .

[Abellia 504]

Just now, flyingfire said:

Yeah I do. But did you use ap freeze? Yeah before the nerf it was op and unbalanced but now they nerfed it to much .

Define it, then. If you know what it means, you know that they haven't nerfed it too much.

[flyingfire 10]

6 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

And that's a bad thing? 

Yeah. Legendary augments should be special they also go against legendary drones like crisis. With legendary augments crisis would be unstoppable. 

[flyingfire 10]

1 minute ago, Abellia said:

Define it, then. If you know what it means, you know that they haven't nerfed it too much.

These legendary augments are against drone like crisis. Developers won’t nerf crisis but they made augments that go against it. Now if you nerf the augments crisis would be unbalanced. I have played against lot of crisis users and if it wasn’t for ap freeze there would be no chance for me. Also in high ranks almost everyone has ap or emp augment against you because they fall out of containers a lot. Now that’s balanced when half of players have immunity against you. As you climb higher in ranks you see more people using stun, ap and emp and also people with protection against it. 

[Abellia 504]

2 minutes ago, Abellia said:

Define it, then. If you know what it means, you know that they haven't nerfed it too much.

Balance means to have all pieces of equipment as equal as possible. So with regards to Tanki:

The most balanced legendary augments are the weakest ones (Stun Smoky, AP Magnum) and the most balanced garage augments are the strongest ones (Missile Launcher "Hunter", Adrenaline Firebird/Freeze/Tesla/Vulcan/Smoky, Cryo Smoky).

This should be the default standpoint for everyone who is chasing balance, considering that if you want to get everything as balanced as possible, the first thing you need to do is close gaps between legendary/status augments and garage augments. You can have your own aggregate goals that this is a part of, i.e. reducing general power levels in the game/increasing TTK, where the goal is to bring legendary augment ttk down to the level of garage augment ttk and then lower the average from there, but this should ultimately always be the first step for anyone who genuinely wants to see balance brought to the game.

2 minutes ago, flyingfire said:

Yeah. Legendary augments should be special they also go against legendary drones like crisis. With legendary augments crisis would be unstoppable. 

There is no reason Legendary augments should be "special" or stronger than garage augments, from a balance standpoint.

The only reasons anyone could have to support that are ulterior motives, such as wanting to preserve the brokenness of the legendary augments they own.

[wolverine848 13,097]

8 minutes ago, flyingfire said:

@wolverine848 on critical hit with mk6 ap freeze I do 512 damage per tick. Without ap I do 1,120 per tick. I’m not asking to increase the critical hit I’m asking to increase damage or ap duration. For you to compare normal mk6 freeze does like about  280- 314 damage per tick with ap freeze I do 186 damage. I just ask to give maybe 200 damage per tick for ap freeze.

PER TICK.

Wow.   So you can't play the game without being able to kill enemies in 1 second?

200% critical - 45% is plenty, considering you've made the target naked during your attack.

You've gotten so used to having god-mode-on with the original version that you struggle with what is still lethal.

[flyingfire 10]

1 minute ago, wolverine848 said:

PER TICK.

Wow.   So you can't play the game without being able to kill enemies in 1 second?

200% critical - 45% is plenty, considering you've made the target naked during your attack.

You've gotten so used to having god-mode-on with the original version that you struggle with what is still lethal.

No right now I use adrenaline and I find it stronger than ap freeze 

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 minute ago, flyingfire said:

No right now I use adrenaline and I find it stronger than ap freeze 

No ... what?

No you don't struggle?  Then why complain?   

[Frylock 1,617]

13 minutes ago, Abellia said:

I don't think Incendiary Rail ranks above status Gausses. Even with the peeking, you've gotta deal with the fact heating is simply a weaker status than EMP is. Also, EMP Gauss can much more easily punish players who attempt to peek against it with arcade shots, whereas Incendiary Railgun basically has to wait. In practice, Incendiary Railgun is just a stronger version of Round Destabilization that has DoT rather than an instant high damage hit - while it's strong, it just versatility in its application of power and its utility. Pretty much the same as what I said about EMP Rail, just with a weaker status - rather than needing luck to punish its crit like EMP, it doesn't get to at all, it just forces your target to either use their repair kit or eat extra damage.

As for Cryo Twins - I don't think there really was a freezing buff. Cryo Twins always had -50% per crit, as far as I'm aware, and all the other single shot cryo augments have always been -100% per crit (except for Cryo Rail in the tiny amount of time it existed before the critical update, but...whatever.) Again though, this doesn't solve that Cryo Twins is simply not as efficient as EMP Gauss is, with a weaker status, range limitation and less effective group application of said status. It might be better in a 1v1 sense, but as far as general matchmaking utility, I'm certain EMP Gauss is going to be more useful.

As for Jamming Hammer - it's great in groups because it has ridiculous status uptime and the ability to distribute it to groups, but the problem is that Jamming simply doesn't do anything in a lot of scenarios - against say, an Assault player without their overdrive up, all you're doing is stopping them from getting a faster reset on their supplies - which isn't a whole lot, they still get infinite double damage. I really wouldn't rank Jamming Hammer higher than status Gauss as a solo augment, and I'd say they're pretty equal depending on opponent and map in a group.

Again, though:

Status Gausses, statistically speaking, are still comparable to stock and Adrenaline Gauss when all counters are in play for both of them, and they are stronger than Stock and Adrenaline Gauss when both are in optimal conditions. Shouldn't this mean they need a nerf?

Yes I do agree it needs some type of nerf. But i was just trying to get to the point on why it isn't considered the most broken. 

[flyingfire 10]

Just now, wolverine848 said:

No ... what?

No you don't struggle?  Then why complain?   

Complain that ap freeze is way to nerfed. I only use the al freeze against defender and crisis drones in battle or I use it in parkour to look cool. Other than that there are stronger augment that you can buy for crystals.