category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Vulcan needs a nerf. Its DPS is too high, higher than smoky and thunder, it can shoot forever like twins, it has insane impact force, and the overheat damage doesn't do a lot if the vulcan user has a paint against firebird and a mammoth, or an isida behind him. Also, the turret should turn slower. In this update, they are going to give it a damage buff, barrels won't take a long time to start firing and stopping. It will do even more damage at a distance. What's wrong with tanki online??!!

You know that a Vulcan + Isida are two tanks.. and it should be "ok" that two tanks are stronger then one tank (you)?

 

I agree on a nerf of impact force.. for the DPS it is very ok if it is higher then thunder or smoky.

The reason why I think so is, thata Vulcan can not use cover - it HAS to EXPOSE itself. A Thunder makes a shot and hides für 2.5 seconds.. a Vulcan is getting hit during all the time it fires.

Therfore single Vulcans in battles are no big issue.

 

Only teams of Vulcans are real big trouble, because they can keep all "sniper hideouts" as well as incoming routes under fire. On longer maps this is anissue.

[Spit_Fyre 334]

Think they may have gone a little overboard with the vulcan. As for the rest, I guess I'm happy now with what's on paper :)

Looks like thunder users have a lot to gain from this re-balance. Hopefully they'll stop complaining all the time and everywhere now.

 

 

 

My vote for OPiness goes to isida. It's stats on paper belies the ease of real-time operation. Throw in some supplies, a decent palette of paints, a viking m4  and a couple of long lost bossom buddies from the isida sorority and all you non-isidas can eat your heart out, or let them do it for you - service with a  smile. You can't outrun them - there's a good bit of range in their favor. The rate of self healing seems high. I side with the isidas though when it comes to the limited cone angle of attack - that needs to be broadened a little.

 

 

Outer perspective -

 

I think reducing the firing rate of some guns like isida/firebird/vulcan will actually benefit thunder users (among others). I feel like the imbalance on "OTHER" turrets is actually what makes thunder users feel like they can't deal with a slow reload. The game goes by too quickly for thunders to cope sometimes... Need to rein in the speed.

 

If the thunder reload is improved significantly, it would be too similar to smoky (with the added benefit of splash). So unless there is a distinct difference between the number of shots a smoky/thunder fires within 3 secs (the damage dealt needs to be compared as well), reworking thunder will unbalance it.

 

Thunder was and is a very popular weapon. So naturally people are going to purchase protection against it. When a gun is ineffective because of protections against it, it's not the same as saying it is under powered. The choice is yours to make.

 

 

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

I think for Isida it would have been much more usefull, if the would have done those two things:

- on DP the isida does not heal _itself_ twice as fast, but just with normal rate

- if an Isida heals another Isisda, the healing rate is reduced

 

This would have balanced isidas very well. What they've done now is not good.

There was a reason why M3 Freeze was the lowest used M3 turret.

There will be the same reason why M3 isida will be the lowest used in the future. The only thing it can be used for after this upgrade, is as "best buddy" for an Vulcan. Actually.. boring and facetteless.

[X_Death.By.Me_X 1,503]

Credits to Tanki Online for great game balance. 

[Heles 9,220]

Lol

[Maf 32,300]

Place Firebird M1 on a higher rank.

 

At such an early rank, the after burn makes M1 Firebird too op and irritates me and SO many people. It needs to be bumped up a few ranks since it's WAY too powerful.

Topic merged

[wolverine848 13,097]

Smoky needs to be nerfed not rail not thunder smoky!

At M3 I'd say Thunder comes out ahead. The min damage increases by a greater margin than the max dmg is reduced. and it gets better re-load.

Smoky on the other hand... slight increase in max dmg but worse re-load and... critical gets BIG nerf. Now does less than Thunder min dmg.

[BOSS.NESS 8]

firebird will soon be UP.  ??????   really it will. since everyone thinks it is OP, more people are going to start getting protection against it. 

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Railgun

 

Some facts and figures.. about TTK (time to kill) for hulls and protections

 

 

vs Wasps/Hornets

 

 

Railgunners can now defend themselfes better vs. Wasps and hornets at full health, as they can deliver the 2nd shot faster.

TTK is now 4,4sec, instead of 6,1sec before the update

On the other hand, only a very little amount of railgun protection (10%) makes it necessary to deliver a 3rd shot at the enemy, which is a massive drawback to railgunners now. Those Hornets and Wasps are used mainly on larger maps - and there almost everyone has at least a little bit of railgun protection.. so most of them will be 3shot.

TTK raises to 8,7sec, instead of 6,1sec before the update

 

 

 

vs Hunter/Vikings

 

 

On smaller maps noone used to have railprotection - there the TTK raises significantly, even without protection:

TTK is 8,7sec, instead of 6,1 sec before the update.

Also the number of times you have to expose yourself in order to place a shot has increased (from 2 times -> 3 times). Only 17% of protection are enough to made a 4 shot necessary; which raises the TTK to 13,1sec (feels like killing mammuth).. but this is the same as it was in the past.

 

On larger maps where most players have a little railgun protection, the life remains pretty unchanged vs mediums:

TTK is 13,1sec, instead of 12,1sec before the update

Still the one more time you have to expose yourself, is a potential thread (lighthulls which go best with rail usually die very fast by almost all enemy turrets; and smokys and Thunders like to aim for enemy railgunners).

 

 

 

vs Dictator

 

 

This one can be killed easier now.

TTK is 8,7sec, instead of 12,1 sec before the update.

I doubt the Ditator users are happy about that..

 

 

 

vs Titan, Mammut

 

 

good news: if you are very lucky (<10%?)  - or if the Mammut or Titan has the sligthest scratch - it will be down after 3 Shots..

TTK is 8,7sec, instead of 12,1sec before the update

 

neutral news: If the heavy hull is on 100% hp and you are not lucky (>90%?), then it takes 4 shots to take it down

TTK is 13,1sec, instead of 12,1sec before the update

This is only a slightly raise.. the bigger issue is that you have to expose yourself 4 times now (3 times before update).

 

Also here only 17 % protection are enough to make an additional 5th shot necessary; but this is almost as before the update.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusions for the railgunners

 

 

for stationary snipers

 

 

The stationary snipers that count on DPM

> will not percieve much of a change

> They will just have to expose themselfes more often and find more targets per minute.. life gets busy in the snipers hideout ;)

 

 

 

For the more dynamic railgunners

 

 

all flankers, attack support snipers

> a lot will change

> as they depend far more on hiding and performing a takedowns at the right moment / instad of counting on DPM.

(I save my flagrunners life, as I cut down the twin/viking that chases my buddy by 1/2 of his health with one shot)

 

To me it feels that in this playing style the Railguns will now have less of a chance to impact on the outcome of a battle, as the can not reduce the active-times of enemy turrets on medium hulls (most common) as efficient as today. They have to expose themselfes more often and can not deal as %-hulls-damage per shot as they used to before the update.

 

flagrunners:

> they might proffit from the shorter reload

> but they can defend themselfes on the way back home far less efficient.

 

overall for all agile railgunners:

The TTK has simply risen for the most relevant usecases, which are

- hornets& wasps on large battlefield, where everyone has at least a little bit of railgun protection

- and the so common Vikings on most other maps - where players have less railgun protection but your TTK has risen to 3 shots

- the 3 kills it takes to take down heavys now last as long as to take down mediums. But.. heavies are not as common as mediums - so the overall disadvantage stays.

On the other hand the faster reload makes those players gameplay a lot more dynamic, and more coperation with your team will be needed (their share in cooperative kills will raise)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusions for the railgunners targets

 

 

Hornets and Wasps

> can defeat rails much more easier _if_ they carry a tiny bit of rail protection;

> but they have a harder life if the don't.

> If they are flagrunners and received some damage in the enemy base, their chance to be taken down by an enemy rail on their way home is _decreased_ (rail takes away less % of a light hulls damage then it did in the past).

 

Vikings are Hunters

> are saver from Rails now. No doubt about it.

 

Dictators

> are pretty poor now, they need some tiny bit of protection to uphold their time-to-live vs a railgunner.

 

Mammuth and Titan

> will not perceive much of a change

> if they have a tiny scratch, they will be taken down after 3 shots, meaning TTK is 8,7sec, instead of 12,1sec before the update. I doubt this will encourage players to use those hulls in open field / for crossing open fields, no matter how "fast" they might go

 

 

 

 

I am truely nosy, how this will feel. Me beeing really curious :)

Edited October 7, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[TGTV 37]

Yeah, agree I have Dictator and freeze both m2 but fully MU.

Credits to Tanki Online for great game balance. 

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

well, then play more, so you reach those ranks where M3 unlocks usualy ;)

There the balance is in your hands :p

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

I think the battles need to be more balanced than just turrets. The battles system should be based on modification class and not on ranks. M0 tanks will battle other m0s. Same with the other three modifications.

 

And the m1s should be available from WO1 to captain. M2s should be available from major to general. And m3s should be available in the last four ranks. This way tankers can buy what they like and try them out. And can choose what to aim for the next modification. And it will also allow them to get enough crystals to buy a few turrets and hulls and some modules and new paints. Same with the product kits.

 

This is how the game should be played, in a relax, calm, and enjoyable manor. Not the raging insults and swearing that we see all the time.

 

You see, the reason a lot of midrange are spitting battery acid at druggers is not because they are drugging but because the drugger used them wisely and have a good collection of equipment and the person who is raging at them is not so fortunate.

Edited October 8, 2016 by DieselPlatinum

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Balance test results

I just had quite some time on the testservers using the balanced equipment

 

Report

 

 

- Isida is truely crap

- frezee is strong but the freezing effect is a joke (takes much to long..). I would rather trade in some damage (less of it) vs stonger freezing.. but I talk about this for ages and I am sick of it.

 

- Railgun is ok

 

- Wasp feels sluggish and not agile enough. The new M3 wasp feels more sluggish and slow-into-turns then my M2 wasp now (missing turning acceleration is really noticeable). The great Wasp driving experience is gone -.-

Dodging with wasp is nwo not only hard, it is truely ... crap. The wasp starts turning so slowly that the sharp turns needed for a dodge are imopssible.

 

- Hornet feels ok, but I have not dirven a normal hornet for ages. I had not much troubles to control it - given the fact that I am not used to drifting hornets, it seems to have less drift then before. It still dodges fine.

 

-XP/BP with 4,4 sec reload time is .... hmm.

Have to get used to it.

With the slower turning of the wasp there were many shots that I missed as I could not turn towards in time. My wasp + rail rotation acceleration was simply too slow to use the reload time efficiently.

On Sandbox this may be compensated with tactics.. on other maps where you can not see so far this is an issue.

 

- Hunter -vs- Viking

YES, they truely exchanged them -.- -.- -.- :(

 

 

The Viking now drifts a lot (compared to before) - the Hunter drifts next to nothing (compared to before).

The viking accelerates now slower, while the Hunter accelerates faster (even faster then Viking)

The speed difference is minor. It is here, but the acceleration and drift have much more impanct on the driveing quality..

 

Tanki > this is craaaaaap.. there is a reason why palyers chose hulls.. so tweak then, dont exchange them..

 

Fighting against Smokys, Hammers and Ricos went fine, the weight of both hulls made them pretty stable.

The viking is seriously effected by rails impact force (which is fine)

The Vulcan impact force was reduced so much, that both hulls did not dance around any more.

 

Overall the Hunter feels like the better ride now. The Viking is a lliiiiiite bit faster, but less drifting and better acceleration makes hunter more fun to use and more agile in close combat.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Smoky-wasp vs Smoky-Rail

 

 

I also opposed a Wasp Smoky driver on that map - and usually this is my death-sentence on RedAlert if I drive Wasp/Rail.

He was more skilled then I was (less misses, awesome aim) and still my Wasp/Rail was not very inferior, but pretty much equal.

With the lowered critical damage he is not much of an harm (3..5 shots to take me down) while I can kill him 2shot.

MOST important: I did not feel very effected by his impact force. It was there, ok, but compared to today the smoky-vs-wasp feels like if an old-smoky-vs-old-viking.

 

Guess why they have the alternation with assoult ammunition.. I guess they will tweak this a little more to make the alternation more effective.

to add something

 

 

 

 

I could not test the light hulls in larger maps in CTF, against true teams that have some def and good attackers. Most players on the testservers are just keen to blow out as much drugs as they can, instead of making use of the chance to determine which equipment to go for -.-

So I cant tell, how light hulls compete vs. meduim hulls (if the speed does pay off; or if med hulls are the far better tradeoff).

 

 

 

Proposed changes

 

 

increase wasp turning acceleration in M2 and M3.. without it this hull is pretty much lost in shortrange combat.

The speed decrease seems fine, but taking away speed and turning acceleration seems to much. Efficiency is strongly reduced at the moment.

 

Freeze would need a stonger freeze effect; damage could be reduced slightly

 

You guys know that a Hunter on Nitro will go as fast as a Wasp?

And a Titan on Nitro will drive as fast as the Hunter?

 

The exchange of Viking with Hunter characteristics is crap.

You did not balance the hulls... you again made one better then the other -.-

 

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[Phoenix.Rising 2,519]

Balance test results

I just had quite some time on the testservers using the balanced equipment

 

Report

 

 

- Isida is truely crap

- frezee is strong but the freezing effect is a joke (takes much to long..). I would rather trade in some damage (less of it) vs stonger freezing.. but I talk about this for ages and I am sick of it.

 

- Railgun is ok

 

- Wasp feels sluggish and not agile enough. The new M3 wasp feels more sluggish and slow-into-turns then my M2 wasp now (missing turning acceleration is really noticeable). The great Wasp driving experience is gone -.-

Dodging with wasp is nwo not only hard, it is truely ... crap. The wasp starts turning so slowly that the sharp turns needed for a dodge are imopssible.

 

- Hornet feels ok, but I have not dirven a normal hornet for ages. I had not much troubles to control it - given the fact that I am not used to drifting hornets, it seems to have less drift then before. It still dodges fine.

 

-XP/BP with 4,4 sec reload time is .... hmm.

Have to get used to it.

With the slower turning of the wasp there were many shots that I missed as I could not turn towards in time. My wasp + rail rotation acceleration was simply too slow to use the reload time efficiently.

On Sandbox this may be compensated with tactics.. on other maps where you can not see so far this is an issue.

 

- Hunter -vs- Viking

YES, they truely exchanged them -.- -.- -.- :(

 

 

The Viking now drifts a lot (compared to before) - the Hunter drifts next to nothing (compared to before).

The viking accelerates now slower, while the Hunter accelerates faster (even faster then Viking)

The speed difference is minor. It is here, but the acceleration and drift have much more impanct on the driveing quality..

 

Tanki > this is craaaaaap.. there is a reason why palyers chose hulls.. so tweak then, dont exchange them..

 

Fighting against Smokys, Hammers and Ricos went fine, the weight of both hulls made them pretty stable.

The viking is seriously effected by rails impact force (which is fine)

The Vulcan impact force was reduced so much, that both hulls did not dance around any more.

 

Overall the Hunter feels like the better ride now. The Viking is a lliiiiiite bit faster, but less drifting and better acceleration makes hunter more fun to use and more agile in close combat.

 

 

 

I could not test the light hulls in larger maps in CTF, to see how they compete vs. meduim hulls (if the speed does pay off; or if med hulls are the far better tradeoff).

 

 

 

Proposed changes

 

 

increase wasp turning acceleration in M2 and M3.. without it this hull is pretty much lost in shortrange combat.

The speed decrease seems fine, but taking away speed and turning acceleration seems to much. Efficiency is strongly reduced at the moment.

 

Freeze would need a stonger freeze effect; damage could be reduced slightly

 

You guys know that a Hunter on Nitro will go as fast as a Wasp?

And a Titan on Nitro will drive as fast as the Hunter?

 

The exchange of Viking with Hunter characteristics is crap.

You did not balance the hulls... you again made one better then the other -.-

 

 

In other words Viking is crap now?

[arnav0506 2,777]

In other words Viking is crap now?

Yes. I'm gonna try out Dictator today.. I hate Hunter, whatever be it's qualities.. Poor old viking :(

[Phoenix.Rising 2,519]

Yes. I'm gonna try out Dictator today.. I hate Hunter, whatever be it's qualities.. Poor old viking :(

My M4 viking just flush down the toilet if it keep these new stats.

 

Hopefully, Dictator wouldn't be that way. =/

[arnav0506 2,777]

My M4 viking just flush down the toilet if it keep these new stats.

Hopefully, Dictator wouldn't be that way. =/

Yeah.. PLEASE THAT FOURTH ALTERATION BE GOOD :(

[dont_you 70]

Viking is really *really* ruined :(

[LittleWillie 3,199]

My first impression of hunter/viking agree with BlackWasp. I found myself doing moves in the hunter that 'felt' like I was driving my old viking.

 

Also what feels like my old Smoky --- Thunder on the speedup rate of rite alteration.

 

I couldn't tell if the Smoky impact alteration was on or not ... except for one rather humorous hit on a mid-air wasp. 

 

Light hulls still feel squishy maybe even squishier.

 

But bottom line who can tell. One hundred million Cry means everyone is running maximum drugs. It is impossible to test the non-drugged situation.

[Heles 9,220]

oh, right forgot about the test server XD 

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

Poor old viking :( / Dictator

Dictator is considerable larger then those other hulls.. and no matter how it handles, it is simply a damn easy target.

I fought vs a Dictator-Thunder yesterday; Map red Alert, the player was skilled (true gismo), I had a Wasp/Rail.

 

I beat him soo often...

His hull is simply too large, and my Wasp was a 3-shot-kill vs his Thunder.

I could also kill him with 3 Shots now, so I didt have to expose myself so often, where he had serious troubles to find cover. I found cover everywhere.. even if i player rail-viking.

 

 

 

Also what feels like my old Smoky --- Thunder on the speedup rate of rite alteration.

I couldn't tell if the Smoky impact alteration was on or not ... except for one rather humorous hit on a mid-air wasp.

I forgot about Smoky - good you mention it:

I also oppsed a Wasp Smoky driver on that map - and usually this is my death-sentence on RedAlert if I drive Wasp/Rail.

He was more skilled then I was (less misses, awesome aim) and still my Wasp/Rail was not very inferior, but pretty much equal.

With the lowered critical damage he is not much of an harm (3..5 shots to take me down) while I can kill him 2shot.

MOST important: I did not feel very effected by his impact force. It was there, ok, but compared to today the smoky-vs-wasp feels like if an old-smoky-vs-old-viking.

 

Guess why they have the alternation with assoult ammunition.. I guess they will tweak this a little more to make the alternation more effective.

[BlackWasp777 4,498]

..if you look on the wiki, within the max damage range, thunder will do it's full damage within 70 meters, which stays the same. It's full damage now is 1,020 hp, while a hornet will have 2,000 hp, so I still don't see why a thunder cannot two-shot a hornet within 70 meters.

 

 

 

What I have done different then you, is that I have not _added_ the splash damage onto the hornet that is hit _directly_.

This is not described in the wiki (neither in old nor in new stats) but feel free to check the "pre-balance" thunder Stats in the wiki (http://en.tankiwiki.com/Thunder) and apply your calculation there. You will see, that a Thunder M3 (today, prebalance) would be able to 1shot a Wasp M2 (today, prebalance) if I calculate it like you do.

 

And My Wasp M2 does not die 1shot by a Thunder M3 shot.

 

Feel free to get this clarified.. I would really apriciate an official answer for thunder splash mechanics

 

 

 

I could tested this yesterday

Wasp M3 vs Thunder M3, no MUs, range = point blank

Results: For a Thunder a Wasp is now a 3-Shot-kill.

Edited October 9, 2016 by BlackWasp777

[TTK_229 1,080]

Balance test resultsI just had quite some time on the testservers using the balanced equipment Report

- Isida is truely crap- frezee is strong but the freezing effect is a joke (takes much to long..). I would rather trade in some damage (less of it) vs stonger freezing.. but I talk about this for ages and I am sick of it. - Railgun is ok - Wasp feels sluggish and not agile enough. The new M3 wasp feels more sluggish and slow-into-turns then my M2 wasp now (missing turning acceleration is really noticeable). The great Wasp driving experience is gone -.-Dodging with wasp is nwo not only hard, it is truely ... crap. The wasp starts turning so slowly that the sharp turns needed for a dodge are imopssible. - Hornet feels ok, but I have not dirven a normal hornet for ages. I had not much troubles to control it - given the fact that I am not used to drifting hornets, it seems to have less drift then before. It still dodges fine. -XP/BP with 4,4 sec reload time is .... hmm.Have to get used to it.With the slower turning of the wasp there were many shots that I missed as I could not turn towards in time. My wasp + rail rotation acceleration was simply too slow to use the reload time efficiently.On Sandbox this may be compensated with tactics.. on other maps where you can not see so far this is an issue. - Hunter -vs- VikingYES, they truely exchanged them -.- -.- -.- :(

The Viking now drifts a lot (compared to before) - the Hunter drifts next to nothing (compared to before).The viking accelerates now slower, while the Hunter accelerates faster (even faster then Viking)The speed difference is minor. It is here, but the acceleration and drift have much more impanct on the driveing quality.. Tanki > this is craaaaaap.. there is a reason why palyers chose hulls.. so tweak then, dont exchange them.. Fighting against Smokys, Hammers and Ricos went fine, the weight of both hulls made them pretty stable.The viking is seriously effected by rails impact force (which is fine)The Vulcan impact force was reduced so much, that both hulls did not dance around any more.Overall the Hunter feels like the better ride now. The Viking is a lliiiiiite bit faster, but less drifting and better acceleration makes hunter more fun to use and more agile in close combat.

EDIT: Smoky-wasp vs Smoky-Rail

I also opposed a Wasp Smoky driver on that map - and usually this is my death-sentence on RedAlert if I drive Wasp/Rail.He was more skilled then I was (less misses, awesome aim) and still my Wasp/Rail was not very inferior, but pretty much equal.With the lowered critical damage he is not much of an harm (3..5 shots to take me down) while I can kill him 2shot.MOST important: I did not feel very effected by his impact force. It was there, ok, but compared to today the smoky-vs-wasp feels like if an old-smoky-vs-old-viking.Guess why they have the alternation with assoult ammunition.. I guess they will tweak this a little more to make the alternation more effective.to add something

 I could not test the light hulls in larger maps in CTF, against true teams that have some def and good attackers. Most players on the testservers are just keen to blow out as much drugs as they can, instead of making use of the chance to determine which equipment to go for -.-So I cant tell, how light hulls compete vs. meduim hulls (if the speed does pay off; or if med hulls are the far better tradeoff).

 Proposed changes

increase wasp turning acceleration in M2 and M3.. without it this hull is pretty much lost in shortrange combat.The speed decrease seems fine, but taking away speed and turning acceleration seems to much. Efficiency is strongly reduced at the moment. Freeze would need a stonger freeze effect; damage could be reduced slightly You guys know that a Hunter on Nitro will go as fast as a Wasp?And a Titan on Nitro will drive as fast as the Hunter? The exchange of Viking with Hunter characteristics is crap.You did not balance the hulls... you again made one better then the other -.-

 

and thunder is...

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

 

I could tested this yesterday

Wasp M3 vs Thunder M3, no MUs, range = point blank

Results: For a Thunder a Wasp is now a 3-Shot-kill.

Yes, but those are M3's  I only care about m4's  However, thanks for testing and posting detailed results!  I also got an opportunity to test out freeze, shaft hornet, wasp, viking, and hunter.

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

And since everyone was drugging non-stop I didn't learn much.  Gameplay feels the same, except with rail.  Hard to get used to the fact that a dictator has the same hp as a hunter, though.