Let's Discuss Protection Modules

[wolverine848 13,097]

19 minutes ago, ThirdOnion said:

I looked into this. Not too long ago Railgun's critical chance step was decreased from 40% to 10% (yet another unannounced change by the way), reducing its average critical hit rate from around 36% to 27%. That puts the Mk7+ damage distribution at about 39% critical and 61% standard damage. A 50% protection module in practice will reduce the total incoming damage by around 30%.

All these unannounced changes ... LOL.

So 50% module worth 30% now.  Not totally useless but 20% is still a big cut considering how many crystals were spent to get there.

[alkyng 3,080]

8 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

There is not much point to me using low upgrade (15-21%) Railgun protection at the mid ranks, so that is usually replaced by Smoky. 

For me, the low upgraded protection modules are for Sniper turrets not Smoky. Sometimes a 15% protection module could protect you from getting one-shot by Railgun, and that's enough. But what this 15% protection have to do with Smoky?

Solving one-shot problem is a high important thing, I have 31% Shaft protection, and that's enough to protect me from one-shooting with Viking. 

Low upgraded module against turrets like Smoky, rarely could benefit. But maybe in my case, I was getting 2-shot from Smoky with DD against my Hornet. I wore 25% module, and that required the Smoky to 3 shot me with DD or 5 shot without. It was really enough for me to not getting 2-shot from Smoky. But still way lesser in importance compared to 25% Rail/Mag/Gauss modules.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

5 hours ago, ThirdOnion said:

I looked into this. Not too long ago Railgun's critical chance step was decreased from 40% to 10% (yet another unannounced change by the way), reducing its average critical hit rate from around 36% to 27%. That puts the Mk7+ damage distribution at about 39% critical and 61% standard damage. A 50% protection module in practice will reduce the total incoming damage by around 30%.

Where did you find this out?

 

3 hours ago, asem.harbi said:

For me, the low upgraded protection modules are for Sniper turrets not Smoky. Sometimes a 15% protection module could protect you from getting one-shot by Railgun, and that's enough. But what this 15% protection have to do with Smoky?

Solving one-shot problem is a high important thing, I have 31% Shaft protection, and that's enough to protect me from one-shooting with Viking. 

Low upgraded module against turrets like Smoky, rarely could benefit. But maybe in my case, I was getting 2-shot from Smoky with DD against my Hornet. I wore 25% module, and that required the Smoky to 3 shot me with DD or 5 shot without. It was really enough for me to not getting 2-shot from Smoky. But still way lesser in importance compared to 25% Rail/Mag/Gauss modules.

I use medium/heavy hulls, so the modules we use most will differ. I can shrug off Shafts, and I micro-upgrade my low modification equipment because I do not speed through the ranks. 

 

I am specifically talking about the mid ranks, namely Third Lieutenant to Major General (what I consider to be the mid ranks). The lower modifications of Smoky have a lower maximum critical chance, and as such, they will have critical hits less often. A larger majority of their shots will be normal damage. This allows me to survive many more of their shots and puts them in an uncomfortable position if they happen to be unlucky with their critical hits. 

 

 

[alkyng 3,080]

3 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

This allows me to survive many more of their shots and puts them in an uncomfortable position if they happen to be unlucky with their critical hits. 

Nothing could be named unlucky, Critical damage now isn't as it seems for a randomness and luck. No, after accumulating some shots the probability of landing a critical increase unbelievably to a high number (or in other meaning a guaranteed hit). EXCEPT if they were wasting their criticals in the air mindlessly

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

2 hours ago, asem.harbi said:

Nothing could be named unlucky, Critical damage now isn't as it seems for a randomness and luck. No, after accumulating some shots the probability of landing a critical increase unbelievably to a high number (or in other meaning a guaranteed hit). EXCEPT if they were wasting their criticals in the air mindlessly

???

[Frylock 1,617]

@TheCongoSpider https://en.tankiwiki.com/Critical_Damage When I looked at the stats for rail, the 40% isn't there anymore. Its now 10% on critical chance step

Edited May 27, 2021 by MysticBlood

[Stratosphere 2,234]

Guys, here are Railgun's current critical chance stats:

• Initial chance: 50%
• Post-critical chance: 10%
• Step: 100%
• Maximum critical chance: 50%

We apologize if there was any outdated/incorrect info on the Wiki; stats change every few updates and the patch notes don't always mention everything.

[Benefactor 6,888]

Maybe I am late to the party, but what is the difference in protection between a Fox Mk7-20 Module and the hull augment Fire Resistance?

And if they were combined, would that be added protection?

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

36 minutes ago, Benefactor said:

Maybe I am late to the party, but what is the difference in protection between a Fox Mk7-20 Module and the hull augment Fire Resistance?

And if they were combined, would that be added protection?

Nope.

[SporkZilla 1,775]

1 hour ago, Benefactor said:

Maybe I am late to the party, but what is the difference in protection between a Fox Mk7-20 Module and the hull augment Fire Resistance?

And if they were combined, would that be added protection?

I think Fire Resistance just provides some resistance to heating > burning whereas Fox modules only decrease incoming damage (from Firebird)

A Fire Resistance or Immunity augment is useless against Incendiary Mix, and Fox modules are almost useless v Compact Fuel Tanks

Edited May 27, 2021 by SporkZilla

[LambSauce 1,884]

1 hour ago, Stratosphere said:

Guys, here are Railgun's current critical chance stats:

• Initial chance: 50%
• Post-critical chance: 10%
• Step: 100%
• Maximum critical chance: 50%

We apologize if there was any outdated/incorrect info on the Wiki; stats change every few updates and the patch notes don't always mention everything.

Surely the step can't be 100%, right?

[alkyng 3,080]

1 hour ago, Benefactor said:

Maybe I am late to the party, but what is the difference in protection between a Fox Mk7-20 Module and the hull augment Fire Resistance?

And if they were combined, would that be added protection?

Fox module protect you from the direct Firebird damage only

But the Heat Resistance protect you from the after burn damage, which come from Firebird and Vulcan IB 

[enri_chill 135]

26 minutes ago, asem.harbi said:

But the Heat Resistance protect you from the after burn damage, which come from Firebird and Vulcan IB 

Don't forget the Dragon's Breath aug on Hammer and Incendiary Round on Smoky. Heat Resistance effects both of those as well.

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

17 hours ago, ThirdOnion said:

I looked into this. Not too long ago Railgun's critical chance step was decreased from 40% to 10% (yet another unannounced change by the way), reducing its average critical hit rate from around 36% to 27%. That puts the Mk7+ damage distribution at about 39% critical and 61% standard damage. A 50% protection module in practice will reduce the total incoming damage by around 30%.

12 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Where did you find this out?

Originally from the Wiki, but it seems that was a mistake.

2 hours ago, Stratosphere said:

Guys, here are Railgun's current critical chance stats:

• Initial chance: 50%
• Post-critical chance: 10%
• Step: 100%
• Maximum critical chance: 50%

With these parameters, Railgun has an average critical hit rate of about 36%, which puts the damage distribution at Mk7+ at almost exactly 50% critical and 50% standard damage. So Railgun protection modules are in practice only half as effective as stated.

1 hour ago, LambSauce said:

Surely the step can't be 100%, right?

A step of 100% simply sets the critical chance to its maximum value.

[Stratosphere 2,234]

1 hour ago, LambSauce said:

Surely the step can't be 100%, right?

Almost all turrets actually have a critical step of 100% - the critical chance's upper limit is clamped by the turret's maximum critical chance value.

[LambSauce 1,884]

2 minutes ago, Stratosphere said:

Almost all turrets actually have a critical step of 100% - the critical chance's upper limit is clamped by the turret's maximum critical chance value.

So in effect all turrets are guaranteed to reach their max crit chance with every other shot?

Edited May 27, 2021 by LambSauce

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

9 minutes ago, LambSauce said:

So in effect all turrets are guaranteed to reach their max crit chance with every other shot?

All but Smoky.

[Stratosphere 2,234]

5 minutes ago, LambSauce said:

So in effect all turrets are guaranteed to reach their max crit chance with every other shot?

Yeah, all stock turrets are guaranteed to attain their maximum critical chance value after two shots, except for Smoky. Some augments can alter that though, for example Blunderbuss, Dragon's Breath and some of Railgun's legendary augments.

[LambSauce 1,884]

3 minutes ago, ThirdOnion said:

All but Smoky.

 

1 minute ago, Stratosphere said:

Yeah, all stock turrets are guaranteed to attain their maximum critical chance value after two shots, except for Smoky. Some augments can alter that though, for example Blunderbuss, Dragon's Breath and some of Railgun's legendary augments.

 

Thanks for clarifying that, to both of you.

It's dumb tho because crits are supposed to be a rare occurrence (at least in other games that's how it is); no more than one crit every five or six shots sounds more reasonable, but currently the situation is exceedingly stupid because of how often they happen.

Edited May 27, 2021 by LambSauce

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

2 minutes ago, Stratosphere said:

Some augments can alter that though, for example Blunderbuss, Dragon's Breath and some of Railgun's legendary augments.

Really? What are the chance steps for Blunderbuss and Dragon's Breath?

1 minute ago, LambSauce said:

It's dumb tho because crits are supposed to be a rare occurrence (at least in other games that's how it is); no more than one crit every five or six shots sounds more reasonable, but currently the situation is exceedingly stupid because of how often they happen.

The maximum critical chance for most stock turrets is 10% - which means on average critical hits occur once out of every eleven hits. Maximum critical chance does not imply a guaranteed critical hit.

[Stratosphere 2,234]

5 minutes ago, ThirdOnion said:

Really? What are the chance steps for Blunderbuss and Dragon's Breath?

 . . .

Blunderbuss - 40%, 40%, 0% (+100%)

Dragon's Breath - 33%, 33%, 0% (+100%)

 

The Augments page on the Wiki should be up-to-date: https://en.tankiwiki.com/Augments

[LambSauce 1,884]

13 minutes ago, ThirdOnion said:

The maximum critical chance for most stock turrets is 10% - which means on average critical hits occur once out of every eleven hits. Maximum critical chance does not imply a guaranteed critical hit.

I know on paper the crit chance is 10% for most turrets however in practice it seems to be a lot higher than that for some turrets.

Maybe that's just confirmation bias, but the crit chances appear to be VERY variable at times.

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, Stratosphere said:

Yeah, all stock turrets are guaranteed to attain their maximum critical chance value after two shots, except for Smoky. Some augments can alter that though, for example Blunderbuss, Dragon's Breath and some of Railgun's legendary augments.

This is confusing...

Edited May 28, 2021 by wolverine848

[wolverine848 13,097]

2 hours ago, ThirdOnion said:

With these parameters, Railgun has an average critical hit rate of about 36%, which puts the damage distribution at Mk7+ at almost exactly 50% critical and 50% standard damage. So Railgun protection modules are in practice only half as effective as stated.

So Rail modules really are as weak as I suggested and, unless there's a LOT of them on enemy team, not worth equipping.

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

2 hours ago, Stratosphere said:

Blunderbuss - 40%, 40%, 0% (+100%)

Dragon's Breath - 33%, 33%, 0% (+100%)

So they do attain max critical chance after two shots. I don't factor in initial chance because it's only relevant immediately after spawning.

2 hours ago, LambSauce said:

I know on paper the crit chance is 10% for most turrets however in practice it seems to be a lot higher than that for some turrets.

Maybe that's just confirmation bias, but the crit chances appear to be VERY variable at times.

There are a number of explanations for the apparent frequency.

• Critical hits for Firebird, Freeze, and Isida are tick-based, where one tick = 0.25 seconds. So an average of one critical hit per eleven ticks means a critical hit approximately every 2.75 seconds.
• Similarly, Vulcan, Twins, and Ricochet also crit often because of their high rate of fire. On top of that Twins is unique in that it has a 25% maximum critical chance chance.
• Railgun has the highest average critical hit rate out of all the turrets.

On top of that, when you consider that there are usually at least 16 tanks in a battle there are bound to be critical hits quite often.