Let's Discuss Magnum!

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

So what?

 

99.99% of DM games do not feature a 100 kill tank. You dwell on the tiny sliver the exception to the rule and say that is how to study a game. Well son. that is not how you do it. You study the game where it affect 99.99% of the games. Not where it affects 0.01% of the games.

 

In game after game after game - and not just in DM too by the way - magnum tanks distorts game play more than any other turret. The magnum player can sit in one spot and affect perhaps 50% of the map. No LOS weapon can threaten the same proportion of the map from their vantage point.

 

That is the meat of the matter. Your talk of 100 kills in DM is a cheery-picked special case that statistically speaking almost never occurs.

yeah but thats still the goal of dm. each turret should be able to achieve that goal.

 

and dm is about stealing kills while staying unnoticed to stay alive as long as possible. 99.99%of all players at dm are noobs who dont understand how theyre supposed to win. just because they dont know how to play doesnt mean those of us who do should be unable to win with magnum.

Edited October 10, 2017 by GuidoFawkes

[tidesbyu 151]

I hate Magnum so much. It's a noob camper's gun

[D.A.R.K.N.E.S.S 432]

yeah but thats still the goal of dm. each turret should be able to achieve that goal.

 

and dm is about stealing kills while staying unnoticed to stay alive as long as possible. 99.99%of all players at dm are noobs who dont understand how theyre supposed to win. just because they dont know how to play doesnt mean those of us who do should be unable to win with magnum.

why are you so close minded?

 

ive achieved 100 kills in DM a few times, mostly with fire viking or titan twins and heavy drugging. this situation occurs very rarely and does not affect the majority of the playerbase.

 

Now, us being humans, we have a naturally selfish mindset so of course we would want everything to revolve around us, so it is not surprising that you want a magnum buff just so you can fulfil your lifelong dream of getting 100 kills in dm with mag

 

However, you are not considering the implications this would have on all other modes of the game. you are proposing something merely based on anecdotal evidence in a single game mode.have you considered what would happen to cp or ctf if you were to give magnum a buff considering the state it is already in? no.

 

your entire argument revolves around one premise of getting 100 kills in dm, but that is not how game balancing works in TO. you cant just give mag a "special boost" in dm to help it get 100 kills, but keep it normal in all other game modes.

 

now, please, stop being so close minded, and stop using this pointless piece of anecdotal evidence to form your solitary, repetitive argument.

Edited October 11, 2017 by D.A.R.K.N.E.S.S

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

why are you so close minded?

 

ive achieved 100 kills in DM a few times, mostly with fire viking or titan twins and heavy drugging. this situation occurs very rarely and does not affect the majority of the playerbase.

 

Now, us being humans, we have a naturally selfish mindset so of course we would want everything to revolve around us, so it is not surprising that you want a magnum buff just so you can fulfil your lifelong dream of getting 100 kills in dm with mag

 

However, you are not considering the implications this would have on all other modes of the game. you are proposing something merely based on anecdotal evidence in a single game mode.have you considered what would happen to cp or ctf if you were to give magnum a buff considering the state it is already in? no.

 

your entire argument revolves around one premise of getting 100 kills in dm, but that is not how game balancing works in TO. you cant just give mag a "special boost" in dm to help it get 100 kills, but keep it normal in all other game modes.

 

now, please, stop being so close minded, and stop using this pointless piece of anecdotal evidence to form your solitary, repetitive argument.

yeah as if the "evidence" these other people are giving about how op magnum is arent anecdotal as well...

why do you even care about the arguments of people who clearly dont even know how to play.

 

and i was repeating my arguments because these noobs didnt understand how a freaking dm works, not because i wanted to force my view into their heads.

i talked about how it was underpowered at dm, they give me some argument that showed they didnt even know what a dm is.

 

and its not my lifelong dream, trying to get 100 kills is the purpose of a dm. People who dont try to dont know what they should be doing.

 

yes it happens rarely but when you do you take away half the battle fund.

Edited October 11, 2017 by GuidoFawkes

[omarhero1 401]

Just played a Rio match against a buyer with M4 Titan and Magnum, he just stood up there on the roof and kept raining our base.

And he was drugging like theres no tommorrow. I could have easily pulled off that match if it wasnt for him -_-

 

He ended the battle with 77 kills and 8 deaths.

[D.A.R.K.N.E.S.S 432]

yeah as if the "evidence" these other people are giving about how op magnum is arent anecdotal as well...

why do you even care about the arguments of people who clearly dont even know how to play.

 

and i was repeating my arguments because these noobs didnt understand how a freaking dm works, not because i wanted to force my view into their heads.

i talked about how it was underpowered at dm, they give me some argument that showed they didnt even know what a dm is.

 

and its not my lifelong dream, trying to get 100 kills is the purpose of a dm. People who dont try to dont know what they should be doing.

 

yes it happens rarely but when you do you take away half the battle fund.

the evidence the other people are giving is that magnum is op because it is a high damage, high splash radius turret that does not need LOS. there is no anecdotes in that evidence, it is straight fact. tanki maps were designed for LOS combat, so the introduction of magnum has broken the game pretty much.

 

*explanation of why you repeat your argument*

 

yes getting 100 kills is the purpose of dm, but this does not mean you have to get 100 kills to "win" the game since there is a time limit. in, ctf if a team is 6-4 up when the timer expires, do you say that they all drew? no. the team which capped 6 won, just like how the person who came 1st won. now, the crystals given might not reflect this, but that is a, and i emphasise this, that is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PROBLEM and not related to magnum at all. the problem is how the person who came 1st dosent recive the same proportion of crystals as someone who got 100 kills, completely unrelated to magnum.

 

*and there it is again, you repeat your point of how you get lots of fund when u get 100 kills, completely unrelated to the strength of magnum*

 

please dont try and put two completely unrelated things together, and read my points properly before you answer. i asked you politely not to repeat your point of 100 kills in dm yet at the end of your post there you go again with the repetition.

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

what is LOS?

and i think i already said self damage, low projectile speed, being forced to blow itself up when anyone is on top of it irregardless of whether the turret is blocked or not, no turret rotation...

Edited October 11, 2017 by GuidoFawkes

[D.A.R.K.N.E.S.S 432]

what is LOS?

 

and i think i already said self damage, low projectile speed, being forced to blow itself up when anyone is on top of it irregardless of whether the turret is blocked or not, no turret rotation...

LOS is line of sight e.g. you need to see them to shoot them

 

self damage is not a problem when tucked away behind a building.

 

neither is low projectile speed when you have such a massive area of effect

 

being forced to blow itself up? pah that is if you get through the rain if artillery protecting the magnum(s) who are hidden behind some sort of cover.

 

turret rotation is not needed for a camping weapon that does not need LOS, it can just move its tank left and right since it does not need to see the enemy to kill him. turret rotation's primary function is to track the target, you dont need to track the target when you cant see them

Edited October 11, 2017 by D.A.R.K.N.E.S.S

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

LOS is line of sight e.g. you need to see them to shoot them

 

self damage is not a problem when tucked away behind a building.

 

neither is low projectile speed when you have such a massive area of effect

 

being forced to blow itself up? pah that is if you get through the rain if artillery protecting the magnum(s) who are hidden behind some sort of cover.

 

turret rotation is not needed for a camping weapon that does not need LOS, it can just move its tank left and right since it does not need to see the enemy to kill him. turret rotation's primary function is to track the target, you dont need to track the target when you cant see them

ricochet isn't LOS? and if your projectile speed is so slow and you make a noise everyone anywhere on the map can hear each time you fire of course you need to see them.

[wolverine848 13,097]

ricochet isn't LOS? and if your projectile speed is so slow and you make a noise everyone anywhere on the map can hear each time you fire of course you need to see them.

Ricco is both LOS and indirect fire.  Shoot blindly into tunnels or around a corner. If you see a damage counter keep firing.  Difference with Ricco is you need to be fairly close to target else something gets in the way of the shot.  Magnum... all the way other side hiding in Brest base safe behind walls and mines.

 

Magnum sound means nothing in to most gamers. IF they have sound on there's too many ambient noises to make use of one particular weapon being fired. And with many tanks on battlefield you have no idea if the shot is coming for you. Run for cover every time Magnum fires? You don't need to actually be hit then and it is still doing it's job of suppressing fire.

 

Same with projectile speed.  You are either so far away you have no idea it's actually coming. Or so close it does not matter.

 

As for DMs... as others have said, 99% of the battles don't hit 100 kills. For any turret.  Twins or Fire in a small map might come close because of proximity.  And... if Devs plan to make matches 10 min long comes true, I don't see anyone hitting 100 kills in a DM battle.

 

Magnum has been around long enough now for the inevitable tweak. Every turret has gone through this.  Something needs to be changed - whether it's lower damage, lower splash area or lower splash damage - something needs to be changed.

[T-34-3m 360]

[TakeAShower 300]

Ricco is both LOS and indirect fire.  Shoot blindly into tunnels or around a corner. If you see a damage counter keep firing.  Difference with Ricco is you need to be fairly close to target else something gets in the way of the shot.  Magnum... all the way other side hiding in Brest base safe behind walls and mines.

 

Magnum sound means nothing in to most gamers. IF they have sound on there's too many ambient noises to make use of one particular weapon being fired. And with many tanks on battlefield you have no idea if the shot is coming for you. Run for cover every time Magnum fires? You don't need to actually be hit then and it is still doing it's job of suppressing fire.

 

Same with projectile speed.  You are either so far away you have no idea it's actually coming. Or so close it does not matter.

 

As for DMs... as others have said, 99% of the battles don't hit 100 kills. For any turret.  Twins or Fire in a small map might come close because of proximity.  And... if Devs plan to make matches 10 min long comes true, I don't see anyone hitting 100 kills in a DM battle.

 

Magnum has been around long enough now for the inevitable tweak. Every turret has gone through this.  Something needs to be changed - whether it's lower damage, lower splash area or lower splash damage - something needs to be changed.

I think that if Magnum get's nerfed, it will become nearly unusable. There just need to be more covered areas. Try playing against Magnum in a map such as Industrial Zone, Subway or Year 2042. All of these maps have a decent amount of cover, and therefore Magnum is not so overpowered. Maybe other maps should recieve more covered areas such as bunkers, tunnels and sub areas.

[wolverine848 13,097]

I think that if Magnum get's nerfed, it will become nearly unusable. There just need to be more covered areas. Try playing against Magnum in a map such as Industrial Zone, Subway or Year 2042. All of these maps have a decent amount of cover, and therefore Magnum is not so overpowered. Maybe other maps should recieve more covered areas such as bunkers, tunnels and sub areas.

I don't think it will become unusable if it is tweaked some. I'm not advocating major changes (like removing entirely self-heal from isida).

Just a minor tweak to the damage dealt be it direct hit, or splash or splash area.  Look at how many changes smoky has undergone.

 

Not sure if changing maps to account for Magnum is possible.  Some maps (like massacre and desert) you can't add bunkers - will defeat the whole purpose of those maps. I mean, are tankers supposed to cower in a bunker just because a Magnum is on the board?  Magnum wins either way - just by making the enemy hide.  Shafts do this to an extent. However - the laser acts as a warning (sometimes) and the shaft needs to have DLOS - meaning it can be targeted as well.

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

100 kills is not the objective of DM. It is a way of limiting how long a battle goes on for, just like the timer. We do not say 10 flags is the objective of CTF, even though the battle ends when 10 flags are capped. If one team caps 5 flags and the other team 2, no one says this is a draw. The same goes for CP and TDM. The victor is the one who gets the most kills, or caps the most flags or the most CP points, not the one who gets to 100 CP/kills/10 flags. 100 kills is just an arbitrary number you invented for yourself. Why not 200 kills? Why not 300? Anyone can make the kill cap 1 or 1000 for all I care in a PRO battle.

 

Consider Magnum's performance in team battles (which are 3/4ths of all the battle modes in the game) and tell me it is under-powered. Cherry-picking DM battles, which a lot of turrets are poorly suited for (Railgun, Shaft, Vulcan, Striker and Thunder depending on the map) is a great way to prove your point.

look at the difference in fund distribution between getting 100 kills and 99 kills. with 99 you only get the proportion respective to your kills, with 100 you get even more than that. please... i have gotten 100 with shaft before. admit it, you have never gotten 100 with any turret, am i right?

 

I am talking about how much harder it is to do so with magnum, if you can't even do it with any turret how would you know how much harder it is to do so with magnum?

Edited October 11, 2017 by GuidoFawkes

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

Proof?

What happens if I make the limit 200 kills? What then?

 

for everyone who doesn't know how a DM works...

 

here my friend got 99 kills so the % of fund he gets is proportional to his kills. basically it's like a draw, even though he finished first.

 

 

 

now here he got 100, as you can see, he got even more than the proportionate amount. it's like he's the only winner

 

 

 

 

yes, he got slightly lesser crystals for the one with 100 kills but that's because there were more people in that match and those people had a lot of kills as compared to the one with 99 kills and everyone else barely had any kills.

 

 

To win a dm you need 100 kills, noobs who never get 100 can't tell which turret is op or not for a dm because it never matters for them, you don't win no matter what you use. in team game modes you can win as long as you have a good team and the enemy is noob, in dm if you're noob you lose like a noob and never know what it's like to win

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

First of all this is not how the crystals earned are calculated. But for sake of argument, let's assume it is.

 

In the first battle, with 99 kills, the battle fund was 1582 and the total number of kills was 205.

Therefore he should have got (99/205) * 1582 = 772 crystals. Obviously this is not the actual way it is calculated, which is why he got more, but let's use your reasoning.

 

In the second battle, with 100 kills, the battle fund was 2341 and the total number of kills was 324.

Therefore he should have got (100/324) * 2341 = 723 crystals.

 

I don't see any bonus from getting 100 kills . . .

 

In fact if you do the calculations for all of the players on the team, you will see that players who scored less kills actually get more than their deserved share than players who scored more kills.

with 100 kills, he got 48% of the fund despite only doing 30%of all the kills, with 99 kills he got 70% of the fund despite doing 48% of the kills. he would have gotten 77% of the fund had he hit 100 kills in that 99 kill match. seriously i'm not your mother, stop playing this game and go back to school to learn maths.

 

okay i didnt explain how fund gets distribuited properly the first time but... DO I HAVE TO?? you're a brigadier for god's sake.

yeah i probably do have to so... the higher up you finish the larger proportion you get, but if you hit 100 you get an even larger proportion

Edited October 12, 2017 by GuidoFawkes

[wolverine848 13,097]

with 100 kills, he got 48% of the fund despite only doing 30%of all the kills, with 99 kills he got 70% of the fund despite doing 48% of the kills. he would have gotten 77% of the fund had he hit 100 kills in that 99 kill match. seriously i'm not your mother, stop playing this game and go back to school to learn maths.

 

okay i didnt explain how fund gets distribuited properly the first time but... DO I HAVE TO?? you're a brigadier for god's sake.

yeah i probably do have to so... the higher up you finish the larger proportion you get, but if you hit 100 you get an even larger proportion

You are ignoring the other stat - deaths. His k/d ratio is quite high so that could affect fund distribution too.

 

Plus... players don't get 100 kills that often. Will happen even less often when you encounter higher protection modules - for obvious reasons.

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

You are ignoring the other stat - deaths. His k/d ratio is quite high so that could affect fund distribution too.

 

Plus... players don't get 100 kills that often. Will happen even less often when you encounter higher protection modules - for obvious reasons.

k/d ratio doesnt affect fund distribution in dm as far as i know, compare the guy who finished 6th with 2.4 and the guy who finished 2nd with 1.9 in the 100 kill match; the guy who finished 2nd got 7 times the amount of crystals he got in kills while the guy who finished 6th only got 5.4 times. far as i know the only downsides to dying in dm is that you're letting your killer take more of the fund meaning you'd get less, you waste time spawning and he could rank higher than you or even hit 100 on time/before you manage to. i could be wrong about this tho.

 

I know, that's why i think it's ridiculous that onion thinks shaft, railgun, thunder, vulcan and striker are useless in dm. I've seen friends hit 100 with every turret except magnum; now, magnum has the least protections modules against it.. yet it's still so hard to hit 100 with it.

 

now that i think about it... a more suitable way to balance magnum would be to simply make more protection modules against it. currently magnum users who use magnum protections in dm to reduce self damage(like me) have no protection against railgun, firebird, vulcan, smoky and thunder. These happen to be my top 5 kill stealers in dm. i think i see the problem now, the magnum protection modules a magnum needs to protect from itself happen to be ones that make it weak in a dm. if they were to release more modules everyone else would be more protected from it while magnum can be a lot stronger in DM.

Edited October 12, 2017 by GuidoFawkes

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

So here is a spreadsheet I made on these two battles:

 

 

 

 

 

On the left is the 99 kills battle, on the right is the 100 kills battle. The most important columns are colored.

Red is the % of total kills.

Yellow is % of battle fund.

Green is % of battle fund divided by % of total kills. 

This is done for each player.

The last uncolored column is unimportant and probably wrong anyway.

 

As you can see, in the 99 kills your friend did get 47.5% of the fund for 30.9% of the kills like you said. The ratio is 1.46.

In the 100 kills he got 70.4% of the fund for 48.3% of the kills, again like you said. The ratio is 1.54. The ratio in the 100 kills is greater than in the 99 kills, making it seem like there is a bonus.

 

Except that this ratio is higher for ALL of the players in the 100 kills battle compared to the 99 kills battle, not just for your friend. There is no bonus.

but how is this even possible, if you take more doesn't that mean there's less of what's left for everyone else to share?

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

what?

if my friend takes a higher percentage of the fund based on the amount of kills he got, wouldn't that mean that a lower percentage of the fund is left to be split among the rest of the people?

[wolverine848 13,097]

k/d ratio doesnt affect fund distribution in dm as far as i know, compare the guy who finished 6th with 2.4 and the guy who finished 2nd with 1.9 in the 100 kill match; the guy who finished 2nd got 7 times the amount of crystals he got in kills while the guy who finished 6th only got 5.4 times. far as i know the only downsides to dying in dm is that you're letting your killer take more of the fund meaning you'd get less, you waste time spawning and he could rank higher than you or even hit 100 on time/before you manage to. i could be wrong about this tho.

 

I know, that's why i think it's ridiculous that onion thinks shaft, railgun, thunder, vulcan and striker are useless in dm. I've seen friends hit 100 with every turret except magnum; now, magnum has the least protections modules against it.. yet it's still so hard to hit 100 with it.

 

now that i think about it... a more suitable way to balance magnum would be to simply make more protection modules against it. currently magnum users who use magnum protections in dm to reduce self damage(like me) have no protection against railgun, firebird, vulcan, smoky and thunder. These happen to be my top 5 kill stealers in dm. i think i see the problem now, the magnum protection modules a magnum needs to protect from itself happen to be ones that make it weak in a dm. if they were to release more modules everyone else would be more protected from it while magnum can be a lot stronger in DM.

OK - I seem to be incorrect that k/d does not affect the distribution.

 

But this is all moot.  The number of 100-kill DM battles is insignificant overall.  And as you encounter more M3 protection modules that have been MUd toward max 50% the 100-kill DM battles will drop even more. That 50% makes it so much harder to kill an enemy protected against your turret.

 

They definitely need more modules with Magnum and striker.  And you currently use 5 turrets?  As you rank that will drop a lot - you won't be able to keep 5 turrets that are useful - too expensive until the Legend ranks. I have 4 turrets and one of them is basically stock. Will take some time to get it MUd since I'm also saving for Protection Modules.

[T-34-3m 360]

I've been having fun with Wasp-Magnum recently, it's basically a highly mobile Thunder with DD. Perfect for aiding in any offense, and if you know when to fold em you can live to help the next wave. It's also small enough to be harder to hit with Shaft when behind cover, and the only counter I've found is another Magnum or being ambushed.

[omarhero1 401]

Seems like its time to buy this OP turret.

I wasnt interested in it at first but after i've seen how it performs on the battlefield HELL i gotta buy one.

[wolverine848 13,097]

Seems like its time to buy this OP turret.

I wasnt interested in it at first but after i've seen how it performs on the battlefield HELL i gotta buy one.

I like a challenge - I bought Striker instead.  Unfortunately it sits in my garage until I can afford Striker Protection... :(

[LittleWillie 3,199]

I've pretty much abandoned my Striker account. I figure I will buy a sstriker some day with one of my non-titan hull accounts.  I did like my test driving on light hulls a week or so ago,  But I am piling up so many CRY in my active accounts I can consider adding a 2nd turret.

 

Magnum ... I will never support that Bad Design Decision. It should just be deleted from the game. (I know this will not happen.)