Should Hornet OD be nerfed?

[wolverine848 13,097]

When ODs were introduced, they had a huge impact on the game.  So much so that 3 of them (mammoth, Titan, Hunter) have already had changes to reduce their effectiveness (aka nerfed).  One common factor here is that the nerfing seems to have arisen due to their effectiveness under specific conditions like Gold Drops or Battle-Mode Siege.

 

One OD so far ignored by the nerf-gods is Hornet.  Though it has not been deemed ulta-effective under specialized conditions, it is indeed way to potent in general game-play.

It has a number of bonuses when activated... radar to show where enemies are, long duration (20 seconds) and the ability to ignore all defenses.  ALL DEFENSES.

 

The last ability has proven to have no counters.  No matter what you do, there is no way to mitigate the damage you will take - even from across the map. In effect a Hornet with DD and LCR alteration can one-shot a fully protected medium hull.  And heavy hulls with only partial damage can be destroyed in like manner. A Hornet-Magnum + OD can also one-shot medium hulls if it just hits the average damage range.

Most ODs have some kind of counter from the other ODs.  Mammoth can be stunned.  Titan dome does not protect against Hornet OD and can be nullified by Hunter.  Wasp has to get close and can be disabled by Hunter. Hunter itself has a short range (can be killed as it approaches) AND has a delay to activation which again allows it to be killed.  But Hornet - which lasts 20 seconds, can be activated under cover and then, with long-range turrets can kill enemies from afar with no ability from the targets to mitigate the damage dealt.

All of the above is bad enough.  And then there's spawn-killing.  Spawn protection was introduced to prevent agressors from staying in enemy base and continuously killing them to the point of ruining battles - players would just leave.  So targets as they re-spawn now have immunity - for a few seconds as they re-spawn - from every turret in the game, including mines.  But for some inexplicable reason, the Devs did not take into account Hornet OD when they introduced spaw protection.  So now a Magnum with Hornet Od active can kill targets in their own base even before they finish spawning and can do any action.  I've been killed by a hornet-magnum during consecutive spawns in a battle. Die - try to spawn - die again before spawned.

TLDR:
- Hornet ODs have ZERO counters from other ODs and allows tanker to one-shot fully protected medium hulls
- Hornet OD lasts long enough to do this multiple times
- Hornet OD allows tanker to bypass spaw protection and kills enemies before they finish spawning.

What say you - does Hornet OD need to be nerfed?

[featwasath 267]

Hell no

Hey @DieselPlatinum cause it's my hull & I definitely don't want it nerfed 

Edited April 6, 2020 by featwasath
Edit - This Diesel guy is confused

[Maf 32,300]

I agree. My thought on this is that Hornet should ignore only one layer of protection completely. Right now I believe there are five types which can all be used simultaneously: Module, Double Armour, Defender drone, Titan's shield, spawn protection. Hornet's OD should completely ignore the most effective protection (e.g. 100% spawn protection), but then perhaps reduce the second protection layer by 50%, and third by 25%. Or just keep it simple and completely go through one layer but be unable to affect the other layers.

That way, a DD Hornet Magnum on OD would be able to one-shot a Viking with DA, a Viking with a 50% module or a Viking under Titan's dome, but it would have to shoot twice to kill a Viking with Defender drone, or a Viking that combines any two of: DA, Module, Titan's dome.

I think that would be fair.

 

44 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

Most ODs have some kind of counter from the other ODs

I think Hornet's counter is the fact that it's a flimsy hull. All it takes is a couple good shots and either you knock off his aim or you just kill it. I think in that regard it's the same as other ODs, where in most situations once you see your opponent activate it, it's possible but very unlikely to react fast enough and counter it.

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, Maf said:

I agree. My thought on this is that Hornet should ignore only one layer of protection completely. Right now I believe there are five types which can all be used simultaneously: Module, Double Armour, Defender drone, Titan's shield, spawn protection. Hornet's OD should completely ignore the most effective protection (e.g. 100% spawn protection), but then perhaps reduce the second protection layer by 50%, and third by 25%. Or just keep it simple and completely go through one layer but be unable to affect the other layers.

That way, a DD Hornet Magnum on OD would be able to one-shot a Viking with DA, a Viking with a 50% module or a Viking under Titan's dome, but it would have to shoot twice to kill a Viking with Defender drone, or a Viking that combines any two of: DA, Module, Titan's dome.

I think that would be fair.

 

I think Hornet's counter is the fact that it's a flimsy hull. All it takes is a couple good shots and either you knock off his aim or you just kill it. I think in that regard it's the same as other ODs, where in most situations once you see your opponent activate it, it's possible but very unlikely to react fast enough and counter it.

Of all the layers to ignore 100% I'm surprised you picked this one.

As for the "counter" part - the most effective turrets with hornet OD allow it to keep it's distance and use the OD - unlike say Mammoth or Wasp or Hunter. On any but the smallest of maps it will activate under cover, pop out and "ambush" a target - likely kill it - then hide again. It's exposure to any kind of return fire can be minimal.  And then there's magnum, which does not even need to do that.  How do you counter a magnum-hornet hiding in it's base surrounded by mines?

[coconuttree 519]

I see a lot of complaints about this od. It has been immensely useful for me, but I very rarely feel powerless against other hornets with overdrive active. (All my account are low to mid ranks though). The most irritating part is when I put up a dome and get promply wiped out.

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Yes, first remove its ability to ignore spawn protection, then make it ignore only 75% of all protections excluding the spawn protection.

[mjmj5558 2,346]

I agree with maf. It is a good idea, but i think ignoring spawn prot. isn't fair, so it should't ignore it.

[Nicola_M 173]

Yes.

[sensei_tanker 3,098]

Something small like reducing the activation time would be fair, but hornet is really weak hull right now after all of the "rebalancing" in the last 3 years.

[NooNooHead 121]

Yes, hornet's OD is too powerful in its current state, especially with the long duration. My guess is it will be nerfed in the future. For those will the core skills, hornet is too fast to be killed effectively even at medium range. If you have 1 or 2 teammates without the core skills, your team is basically done in MM against a skilled hornet player with max GS. You can't land enough blows before it kills you. Enjoy it.

[coconuttree 519]

Maybe they should remove spawn killing, radar, full damage for mines and full damage in a titan dome and see where it goes from there.

[DaringDeer 656]

Hornet is by far the best scoring hull.  Pair it with Defender (also arguably too strong) and you take away any argument that it is balanced.  You effectively have 8000 health and a RK for 8000 more.  You complain about a rail or magnum killing you in 1 shot, and I agree that that is inconvenient.  The actual exploitation of it is with a high damage continuous firing turret that can kill the entire enemy team in a few seconds while on overdrive like vulcan/hornet or fire/incendiary mix alt/hornet.  Then you can start over while they spawn.

I use these combos frequently because they are available to me.  Like most people, I gravitate to what is strongest at any point in time, but no one can say there is balance.  I think hornet overdrive should ignore some protection but not all.  I think it should

1. Ignore titan dome
2. Ignore either DA or equipped protections but not both.
3. Not ignore spawn protection

While I probably have more time using Defender drone than anyone in game, for #2, I lean toward DA (and thus Defender) being ignored.  Otherwise I think you are giving Defender a wholly unnecessary buff.

Another alternative is gradually weakening the protection ignoring power of hornet overdrive as it expires.  Make it initially ignore what it does now but every second reduces the ability by 5%.  e.g. 2000 damage shot against a DA does full damage initially, 1950 at 1 second, 1900 at 2 seconds, ..., 1050 at 19 seconds, 1000 at 20 seconds.

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Spoiler

 

Or just this:

23 hours ago, DieselPlatinum said:

Yes, first remove its ability to ignore spawn protection, then make it ignore only 75% of all protections excluding the spawn protection.

 

[Gauss-Hornet 489]

Do you guys see how great it is for the special Cosmonautics day map with increased Gold drop frequency to be Madness? There will be more of a nuisance from long ranged one-shot kills than close ranged ones. Thus, gold diggers would cry, and Hornet's Overdrive be nerfed. 

[Gauss-Hornet 489]

Do you guys see how great it is for the special Cosmonautics day map with increased Gold drop frequency to be Madness? There will be more of a nuisance from long ranged one-shot kills than close ranged ODs. Thus, gold diggers would cry, and Hornet's Overdrive be nerfed. 

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

On 4/7/2020 at 2:24 AM, DaringDeer said:

Ignore either DA or equipped protections but not both.

No! No! No. That's mega no.

[miguelduarte13 22]

I agree that hornet OD has to be nerfed i mean it reloads super fast and it cancels DA/protection , you see the enimes also their HP and it lasts 30 minutes, and not saying that all the other OD only does 1 thing so Hornet OD needs to be nerfed to be fair for every hull 

[vulcanrage 22]

Yeh, I would agree.

Percentage vs these defences seem best. 

Pick what the OD is really focussing on. 

I don't think a hornet should be able to do much of any damage when someone is spawning. The immunity should stay. or be like 90% defence. 

Then pick what to give it the strongest advantage against. If someone has protection vs your turret, how much should it be lowered? say down to 10% protection? 

In a sense, in a sort of thematic way you could look at it as... what did the Over drive figure out how to do? Was it that, for a long time protections gave X ability to defend, and the OD picked up on it and just found a way to counter the protections? Is it just really good and squashing any type of armour, so it doesn't matter how much thicker you make you're hull, somehow hornet can just smash through armour really well now? 

But it's clearly to strong. I think something like, 90 percent damage going through some type of resistance, then either lower percent damage going through for others, and maybe none for some. I.e. No damage go through on spawn. The whole point of spawn immunity being place in game, I don't see any justification in saying that its ok for hornet players, its a gameplay base mechanic so you can't crush people on spawn.

+1 vote hornet OD nerf

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

Here marks the anniversary of the implementation of Overdrives. From the Ice Age mess we had for Cosmonautics last year to the diverse use of Overdrives after many changes this year. 

 

Wasp had seen its Overdrive greatly increased in effectiveness.

Hornet's Overdrive went through back and forth changes to its core mechanics.

Hunter's Overdrive effectiveness being decreased over time.

Viking's Overdrive effectiveness taking a sharp initial decline to the settled powerhouse it is today with turret and alteration combos.

Dictator's Overdrive preaching the benefits of teamwork. 

Titan's Overdrive rivalling the Juggernaut's throne for survivability despite a decrease in effectiveness. 

Mammoth's Overdrive with its interstellar debut to the need-for-speed deathtouch it is today.

 

Each underwent different changes. Some more than others. They changed the way battles were played. Closed old strategies, and opened new ones to the light for the future of Tanki. 

 

---

 

 

Hunter has recently fallen from its throne. And the guillotine now eyes Hornet. 

 

A nerf is wanted by many. What kind of treatment do you want to give it? Do you want to give it the Titan/Mammoth treatment with a rework-but-overall-nerf? Or the Hunter treatment with a sharp decline in total effectiveness? 

 

[Maf 32,300]

5 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Dictator's Overdrive preaching the benefits of teamwork. 

Never forget those couple weeks of Dictator-Mechanic combos farming battle score in Assault mode. And Hornet Gausses shooting them up 

 

[Boeing747-800plane 45]

3 hours ago, Maf said:

Never forget those couple weeks of Dictator-Mechanic combos farming battle score in Assault mode. And Hornet Gausses shooting them up 

 

Those days were awsome. Some of my friends had 700 battle scores because they used their overdrive so much 

[T879 151]

In my opinion, Hornet's Overdrive power can be limited by reducing it's OD time from 20 seconds to 15 or 12.
Also, Mammoth's Overdrive should be able to ignore mines (+ their impact force) and also negate Hornet's OD, meaning the Hornet player would only do standard damage to the Mammoth as long as its OD is active 

[yellowghetto 3,206]

Honestly I don't want a nerf to Hornet. I kinda like having the idea of actually being able to battle against 9999 GS players 

[vulcanrage 22]

Yeh.. but how often do you face 9999 players? 

 

Nothing really justifies the strength of hornet.

 

On the upside to my hunter views. I bought it while back, and have upgraded it to 16/20.

 

The thing is still ridiculously strong, its even bit worse than I realized. I went to capture a rugby, and went into a base with 5 defenders. Just to be clear, more than half the enemy team was defending at their rugby capture point.

 

I went in with full health double armour. Stunned the defending mammoth dictator / isida freeze. And some tank behind a wall I don't what. They just froze. And I drove around them and scored. I scored 3 times that game. Game ended 3-0. I was so strong. Hunter is so good. Oh Em Gee. 

 

But its worse! because the other 2 tanks, a shaft and a smoky I believe, but could be wrong, couldn't hit me after I froze the 3 enemies. The mammoth and dictator were both blocking lines of sight! I mean. I hadn't realized this aspect of it before, not only is it bad that the hunter can block and freeze and score like this. But in any case, those enemies then become little puppet defenders of the attacking hunter. 

Can't wait to get my hunter to 20/20. The health isn't really there. But the gameplay advantages are. 

 

Hornet OD maybe also could be balanced a bit with say detection working the full 20 seconds, but the excess damage working for a significantly less amount of time. Still think it shouldn't be ignores all resistances entirely. Anyways. yeh. Let's get on this tanki. Nerf for hornet. The time has come. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

3 hours ago, vulcanrage said:

The thing is still ridiculously strong, its even bit worse than I realized. I went to capture a rugby, and went into a base with 5 defenders. Just to be clear, more than half the enemy team was defending at their rugby capture point.

 

I went in with full health double armour. Stunned the defending mammoth dictator / isida freeze. And some tank behind a wall I don't what. They just froze. And I drove around them and scored. I scored 3 times that game. Game ended 3-0. I was so strong. Hunter is so good. Oh Em Gee. 

How do 5 defenders not kill 1 tank carrying the ball?  Unless they ALL have short-range turrets like fiebird, I can't see you not taking lethal damage on the way in.  And no mines?

Sounds like a noob team - learned nothing after the first time.  A perfect storm comes every now and then but I would not excpect that to be a common occurence.