Let's Discuss Hopper!

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, asem.harbi said:

Yelloghetto said one day, that he admit Hopper is stronger than Hornet and Wasp, not because it's OP but because Wasp/Hornet are UP. A good point honestly.

I disagree.

When 75%+ of the caps in CTF, Rugby or Assault come from 1 hull - that is a strong indication the hull is OP.  There are not just 3 hulls that can cap.  If that's true, then the other 7 hulls are just bystanders and the game really is broken.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

4 hours ago, Maf said:

I think there's something else I missed

Another slight passive charging rate decrease, when the May holidays started.

 

4 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

The slower idle still leaves it as 3rd fastest.

5th fastest now. 

 

4 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

Zero retention is not as impactful as it suggests - since the OD effects are instantaneous

Zero retention is VERY impactful. Especially for what Hopper was like before any of its nerfs. It becomes even more impactful when the number of that hull in any particular battle is high. A lot of the problems with Hopper last year and some of this year was caused by its ridiculous and unnecessarily long retention period. I explained in another thread why a hull with charging parameters like Hopper having a long retention period is bad.

 

4 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

charge bonus delay was put into effect so it won't basically boost a complete charge from capping.  Since it's effects are instantaneous, it's not nearly as impactful as say.. doing that to rail or viking or mammoth

It makes the feedback loops much less potent if not non-existent. And this also ties into the problems that was caused by its long retention period. 

 

4 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

Stun duration nerf - what was it before?

It was 3 seconds. This stun nerf was very potent for defending players. I can now actually fight back against a Hopper trying to escape and since I have Heat Immunity for the hulls I use most, the 1 second stun is hardly a bother. 

 

 

With all that out of the way, there is still the problem or Hopper itself. It can hop. All those nerfs they did to it affected what happened after the hop. As they said in the RU Q&A that ThirdOnion created a topic about, they don't plant to change the hop. I hope whatever change they have planned is sensible. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by TheCongoSpider

[wolverine848 13,097]

2 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Another slight passive charging rate decrease, when the May holidays started.

 

5th fastest now. 

 

Zero retention is VERY impactful. Especially for what Hopper was like before any of its nerfs. It becomes even more impactful when the number of that hull in any particular battle is high. A lot of the problems with Hopper last year and some of this year was caused by its ridiculous and unnecessarily long retention period. I explained in another thread why a hull with charging parameters like Hopper having a long retention period is bad.

 

It makes the feedback loops much less potent if not non-existent. And this also ties into the problems that was caused by its long retention period. 

 

It was 3 seconds. This stun nerf was very potent for defending players. I can now actually fight back against a Hopper trying to escape and since I have Heat Immunity for the hulls I use most, the 1 second stun is hardly a bother. 

 

 

With all that out of the way, there is still the problem or Hopper itself. It can hop. All those nerfs they did to it affected what happened after the hop. As they said in the RU Q&A that ThirdOnion created a topic about, they don't plant to change the hop. I hope whatever change they have planned is sensible. 

That was my point.  The retention is not important in terms of the fact it already had a successful OD activation - it's instantaneous.  And in Rugby and Assault there's a good chance the activation allowed it to score.

For Hopper any charge bonus delay of more than 2 seconds does not matter.  It either capped or it did not.  That's where it gets the greatest score.  So making it 10 seconds seems great - but 2 seconds would do same thing.

How you figure 5th fastest?  (I don't count JUG...)

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

3 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

How you figure 5th fastest?  (I don't count JUG...)

Crusader and Mammoth's OD charge rates were significantly buffed with the start of the May Holidays event. You can find the updated list here.

 

4 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

That was my point.  The retention is not important in terms of the fact it already had a successful OD activation - it's instantaneous.  And in Rugby and Assault there's a good chance the activation allowed it to score.

The zero retention makes sure that that is more or less a one time issue. And if Hopper happens to fail before it caps, then it will have to start over instead of having 70%+ retained for them to get another attempt 20-30 seconds later. Now multiply this by 5 different Hoppers in the battle, all trying to capture the rugby ball or assault flag. 

 

7 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

For Hopper any charge bonus delay of more than 2 seconds does not matter.  It either capped or it did not.  That's where it gets the greatest score.  So making it 10 seconds seems great - but 2 seconds would do same thing.

It does. It does matter a lot. Not all Hoppers use their jump when already on top of a capture point. Many use it beforehand to escape mines or defenders that have counters to their hop. Hopper heats anyone that doesn't have Heat Immunity to maximum temperature. The 10 second charge bonus delay prevents the Hopper from getting OD charge from any kills it happens to gain while it is still alive after the jump. 

 

Not to mention that with a charge bonus delay of 2 seconds, Hopper Crisis users will be able to start feedback loops again. I'm sure you don't want that. 

 

 

[wolverine848 13,097]

44 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Crusader and Mammoth's OD charge rates were significantly buffed with the start of the May Holidays event. You can find the updated list

According to WIKI table in OD section crusader and mammoth are the ONLY tanks with faster recharge.

[alkyng 3,080]

Oh I noticed the weakest ODs get a very fast charge rate, and Viking get a very long charge rate.

Honestly I don't liked this idea, I think balancing them and make them like the rest of ODs is better than very fast - very slow

[cosmic666 1,055]

9 hours ago, Maf said:

Why devs didn't foresee it being a problem before adding it, I don't know.

You really believe this, i don't think you do, which says everything about you that i need to no.

 

9 hours ago, Maf said:

and you conveniently chose to ignore it and continue your baseless accusations

My posts are NEVER baseless. They are based on what i and hundreds of other players see play out in battles every single day, OP buyers dominating with ease.

 

9 hours ago, Maf said:

Now I would appreciate if you stopped spreading any further misinformation.

It is not misinformation. One thing i do not do, are have ever done, is lie about the game and twist in my favour the facts to get my point across.

 

9 hours ago, Maf said:

Pair that with stun immunity Viking/Hunter, and there's not much I can do.

It is a rare outcome indeed that the stun effect of hunter gets the drop on the flying hull. 

Would you class this as misinformation.

And by the way mod were i come from this is called freedom of expression, i have not been rude in any way, just getting my factual points across and countering your argument, you don't like it, stop reading my posts. Win/Win for both us if that happens.  

[cosmic666 1,055]

@TheCongoSpider Sorry but all this nonsense about retention period etc, etc means absolutely nothing in real terms, ACTUAL BATTLES.

I was in a battle yesterday and the enemy team had 2 flying monkeys both with maxed out crisis. Their overdrives seemed always to be on and one of them flew up onto a high wall and started attacking our defenders. It took me a long time to actually nail the legal cheat, around 2 mins.

They fly half way across the map, can stun, can overheat a enemy and have the most awkward/wayward movement imaginable, which makes it incredibly hard to concentrate any meaningful fire down on them.

This is how battles play out when up against OP flying monkeys equipped with the crisis drone. No one can deny that this happens ALL the time in capture modes when these helicopters are in battle against you.

A viable option to nerf this hack, is to scrap it's ability to make a player drop the flag and take away the insane ability to go on top of walls/buildings.

Let it have it's unique (still don't like it) jump, but that's it, nothing else. One functional overdrive not 3.

Seems fair to me, a overdrive that does one specific thing, not three abilities that overwhelm entire teams in seconds.  

[Ethiaa 135]

20 minutes ago, cosmic666 said:

@TheCongoSpider Sorry but all this nonsense about retention period etc, etc means absolutely nothing in real terms, ACTUAL BATTLES.

It really does make a difference. You might still hate the mechanics of the hull and overdrive - that's hardly a niche point of view - but there is a clear impact from changing retention period which makes a big difference to how often the overdrive is available because of the way that overdrive is normally used.

I would much rather see gradual changes like tweaking retention periods and recharge rates or other game mechanics than sudden huge buffs and nerfs to things. Adding in a mechanism that effectively breaks several game modes for other people was just stupid but we are where we are.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ethiaa

[cosmic666 1,055]

2 minutes ago, Ethiaa said:

It really does make a difference. You might still hate the mechanics of the hull and overdrive - that's hardly a niche point of view - but there is a clear impact from changing retention period which makes a big difference to how often the overdrive is available because of the way that overdrive is normally used.

I would much rather see gradual changes like tweaking retention periods and recharge rates or other game mechanics than sudden huge buffs and nerfs to things. Adding in a mechanism that effectively breaks several game modes for other people was just stupid but we are where we are.

Nope, disagree.

I saw what these 2 flying monkeys were doing throughout the entire battle. These nerfs (whatever) did absolutely nothing to them, they still caused major problems to the team i was in because of the OP nature of the hull. The erratic movement is also a big factor in why this hull is very, very hard to combat. That in itself is OTT and should be rectified so it coincides with normal hull movements. Do these corrections and the flying monkey will have to rely on the players skill and not solely on it's OTT/OP overdrive to end battles as quick as they do. 

[Ethiaa 135]

So like I said, you still hate the mechanics of the hull and overdrive. C'est la vie.

[cosmic666 1,055]

Just been in another battle against a marshal with the legal hack. Nowhere near my G/S and yet he capped 3 times and returned his flag twice, due to the nerfed overdrive he now has.

Really don't no how he copes with such a underpowered overdrive after it's huge game breaking nerf.

So @Maf and @TheCongoSpider my point has been proven yet again. The flying monkey has had no nerf worth mentioning, that is when it comes to actually going up against them in battle and not on a piece of paper with some naff stats that mean and do nothing at all to combat the OP nature of this flying tank, that is not really a tank.

[Maf 32,300]

2 minutes ago, cosmic666 said:

So @Maf and @TheCongoSpider my point has been proven yet again. The flying monkey has had no nerf worth mentioning

Which point? The fact that Hopper is OP in capture modes? Literally everyone (myself and devs included) agrees on this. You're just beating the same dead horse over and over again with that.

But in order to understand how Hopper got nerfed, you would have had to actually play with it before and after the changes happened — same with every single piece of equipment that undergoes balance changes. It's very rare to see a noticeable difference in an item's performance from an outside point of view.

I played with Hopper ever since it became publicly available. I remember when I could use OD just before dying, stun and burn all nearby enemies, only to respawn with another OD fully charged. I also remember hopping into the enemy base, scoring a flag, and respawning with 80-90% OD already charged. And I remember always being the first to have an OD ready, while enemy Hunters were still at 50% charge, allowing me to easily score the first flag.

None of this happens anymore. And as I continue playing with Hopper, I'm telling you from first-hand experience that scoring flags became much harder. Now, I'd like you to pay close attention to the wording here. It became much harder compared to how it was, but it did not become hard. I can still easily win most battles and score 5 flags, but this is exacerbated by the fact that I'm using the lightweight-crisis combo, which, yeah, I fully agree with you about calling it a legal hack. But even with that insane advantage I still quite often come across skilled enemies, who manage to stop me and defeat me, even without using Hoppers on their own team. As for normal Hoppers — I regularly see them fail over and over again when trying to score, because people learned to counter their OD.

[cosmic666 1,055]

56 minutes ago, Ethiaa said:

So like I said, you still hate the mechanics of the hull and overdrive. C'est la vie.

No you have obviously not understood my post have you. The RETENTION PERIOD (nerf) has in no way whatsoever, in any language you care to use, made the slightest difference to how these legal hacks operate in actual battles. They still dominate with ease. Now if you disagree with my post that's ok, but you saying that this nerf has made a difference to the flying monkeys is like saying that @Maf is my best mate. I'm sure you can see how ridiculously insane both of these are.

And just to be clear, yes i hate everything about this legal hack, but the FACT remains the nerf (joke) did nothing worth mentioning. 

31 minutes ago, Maf said:

Which point? The fact that Hopper is OP in capture modes? Literally everyone (myself and devs included) agrees on this. You're just beating the same dead horse over and over again with that.

But in order to understand how Hopper got nerfed, you would have had to actually play with it before and after the changes happened — same with every single piece of equipment that undergoes balance changes. It's very rare to see a noticeable difference in an item's performance from an outside point of view.

I played with Hopper ever since it became publicly available. I remember when I could use OD just before dying, stun and burn all nearby enemies, only to respawn with another OD fully charged. I also remember hopping into the enemy base, scoring a flag, and respawning with 80-90% OD already charged. And I remember always being the first to have an OD ready, while enemy Hunters were still at 50% charge, allowing me to easily score the first flag.

None of this happens anymore. And as I continue playing with Hopper, I'm telling you from first-hand experience that scoring flags became much harder. Now, I'd like you to pay close attention to the wording here. It became much harder compared to how it was, but it did not become hard. I can still easily win most battles and score 5 flags, but this is exacerbated by the fact that I'm using the lightweight-crisis combo, which, yeah, I fully agree with you about calling it a legal hack. But even with that insane advantage I still quite often come across skilled enemies, who manage to stop me and defeat me, even without using Hoppers on their own team. As for normal Hoppers — I regularly see them fail over and over again when trying to score, because people learned to counter their OD.

So how come a marshal can get the better of me when his combo was to be honest a joke compared to mine as far as G/S goes.

Pointing out all of this is a good read, i will give you that, but it does not convince me at all that the monkey is much easier to counter than before.

The truth is they still dominate and are the only hull in the game that can win a battle on their own. 

These are the facts i am trying to get across, THEY STILL DOMINATE battles, regardless of what nerfs they have had they are still nigh on impossible to stop.

Best scenario scrap them altogether, problem solved.  

I'm done with this garbage. @Maf for once i agree with you. It is like flogging a dead horse, waste of time because nothing will ever change. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by At_Shin
Posts Merged.

[wolverine848 13,097]

4 hours ago, Maf said:

And as I continue playing with Hopper, I'm telling you from first-hand experience that scoring flags became much harder.

In what way?   

WRT to charge boost delay - If Hopper uses OD to steal the flag and run, it can still gain large OD boost by not capping within 10 seconds.  On larger maps that is pretty simple as a good chunk of those 10 seconds are used up just getting back to base.

For capping in rugby and assault, the Hopper will still cap, and maybe die.  So a chunk of those 10 seconds are used up re-spawning and by the time the Hopper is back on the field and ready to start scoring, 10 seconds is mostly gone.

[Maf 32,300]

12 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

WRT to charge boost delay - If Hopper uses OD to steal the flag and run, it can still gain large OD boost by not capping within 10 seconds.  On larger maps that is pretty simple as a good chunk of those 10 seconds are used up just getting back to base.

In smaller maps (which happen to be the majority of maps I get put into), it can take between 3-5 seconds to go from base to base after using OD. That additional 5-second wait near our flag base has cost me the flag multiple times due to enemies catching up and killing me. A lot of times I end up just capping the flag and forfeiting the OD charge boost from it. And due to the slower charge rate and the fact that my combo is near useless without an OD, the enemy gets a lot more chances to launch successful counter-attacks while I'm working to get another OD.

[Maf 32,300]

1 minute ago, Unleash said:

If developers really know hopper is op in mm capture battles why they dont remove that copy paste stun and fire burning alt and make hopper overdrive unique with jump only?

And how is that going to help the flying-across-the-map-in-one-jump issue in any way?

[Tanker-Arthur 2,971]

Just now, Maf said:

And how is that going to help the flying-across-the-map-in-one-jump issue in any way?

It'll help because it at the very least, allows the enemy team to fight back and try to shoot the Hopper while it flies away, without the team being burned to death or being stunned.

[LambSauce 1,884]

17 hours ago, Maf said:

Any long range turret (preferably hitscan) paired with Viking. So ideally Shaft or Railgun, but Striker (Hunter augment), Gauss, Smoky, Thunder, Hammer (Slugger) can also work. Not as effective as the P2W stuff, but still works with a bit of skill.

Wait, you're seriously suggesting Viking's OD as a counter to Hopper-Crisis?

How many times per battle do you think I'll be able to use that, given how slowly it charges?

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, Maf said:

In smaller maps (which happen to be the majority of maps I get put into), it can take between 3-5 seconds to go from base to base after using OD. That additional 5-second wait near our flag base has cost me the flag multiple times due to enemies catching up and killing me. A lot of times I end up just capping the flag and forfeiting the OD charge boost from it. And due to the slower charge rate and the fact that my combo is near useless without an OD, the enemy gets a lot more chances to launch successful counter-attacks while I'm working to get another OD.

Well on the smaller maps just cap.  So what if your charge is slower due to the 10 seconds.  As I said dictators and supply drops can compensate.  But "slower charge rate" is relative.  Only Mammoth and Crusader have a better combined time/point OD charging rate.

On the larger maps you won't be sitting around for 5 seconds after stealing the flag.  Boost the charge by capping and by time you go to steal another flag your OD is pretty much ready.

[Maf 32,300]

2 hours ago, LambSauce said:

Wait, you're seriously suggesting Viking's OD as a counter to Hopper-Crisis?

How many times per battle do you think I'll be able to use that, given how slowly it charges?

A grand total of TWO times!

I mean, you asked for F2P counters and viking OD is a F2P counter. It's not great, but there are better things which would be considered P2W.

[DaringDeer 656]

How many vikings get 1 overdrive in your battles let alone 2 @Maf?  :)

[Maf 32,300]

3 minutes ago, DaringDeer said:

How many vikings get 1 overdrive in your battles let alone 2 @Maf?  :)

Umm, I'm pretty sure a Viking can get 2 overdrives in 7 minutes just by passive charging. Probably 3 by actively getting score.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

1 hour ago, Maf said:

Umm, I'm pretty sure a Viking can get 2 overdrives in 7 minutes just by passive charging. Probably 3 by actively getting score.

Viking  takes 4 mins and 10 seconds to passively charge 100%. They're getting at most 1 if they aren't getting much score for battle actions and the battle ends after 3 minutes. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Viking  takes 4 mins and 10 seconds to passively charge 100%. They're getting at most 1 if they aren't getting much score for battle actions and the battle ends after 3 minutes. 

I can't understand the logic behind the way they set up overdrives.  In some cases it's all-or-nothing.

Viking should have somewhat less punch, but get OD more often.

Before the ODs came out, I never envisioned them as being god-mode-on.  The battles are almost completely dependent on them.