update Critical damage

[Akame 4,578]

1 minute ago, Emeraldcat345 said:

Pretty sure the Devs did the opposite of "widening diversity." It's actually really hard for diversity to exist in Tanki now since each turret is slowly losing its uniqueness.

Exactly why I'm asking people to try something different than a meta and being a boring and dull submissive player of the community. I want to see combo's I haven't seen often, I want to see more blaster drones with people playing aggressive. I don't want to see railgun scout/LCR campers, I want to face innovative players who don't stick to the norms.

[EmeraldCat 562]

1 minute ago, Akame said:

Exactly why I'm asking people to try something different than a meta and being a boring and dull submissive player of the community. I want to see combo's I haven't seen often, I want to see more blaster drones with people playing aggressive. I don't want to see railgun scout/LCR campers, I want to face innovative players who don't stick to the norms.

If only your words could be seen by most players in the game, but I believe majority of players don't even use the Forums. :')

[raze_avenger 221]

i agree railgun is amazing right now 

[alkyng 3,080]

To be honest I haven't expected before from Tanki that EMP will get a real nerf, I thought the nerfs will be just a slight nerfs that will reduce its effectiveness. Not just an overkill   But still needs more tests/approves if the damage nerf -25% still exist or not.   I think it's the same nerf that happened to Hornet, was a really enough nerf. Not sure if they will do the same thing for Hopper, though I don't think because the Hop. Also I don't even want to waste my life waiting for their buffs/nerfs, I basically wont complete playing more years.

By the way for my honest opinion, I see the nerf in EMP is just a nerf compared to stock Gauss. But in real I see Gauss don't have the right of 20m and don't have even to surpass 10m radius (Magnum is the same) . So I see Gauss should be nerfed and EMP should have a more nerf    . But not much people talking about stock Gauss because the OP Augments have overwhelmed

 

[DestrotankAI9 1,513]

EDIT: Deleted my post because it was moved, and it is out of context in this topic.

Edited March 27, 2021 by DestrotankAI9

[alkyng 3,080]

You haven't explain more, what do you mean ? the stock Railgun.. or the Augments that are no-longer can do status effects with every shot..?

Because you said you spent your money, I'm not sure if you mean your real $ or just the crystals in the game..

2 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

How can you not notice that you do 1600 damage every other shot, because 50% of the time you get to ignore protection modules?

What more do you want?  

Lol, you don't have to talk about stock Railgun.. Look at my LCR Mk7-7 can do critical shot with exactly 2017dmg. So I can one-shot light hulls always even if they have 50% prots. Which is definitely OP and will make me go awaay from my Hornet and I will switch back to Viking. Because I really don't want to be one-shot victim.

[von_Cronberg 258]

So after playing extensively with the new update, I can clearly say that I decidedly dislike it.

 

On 3/26/2021 at 12:16 AM, von_Cronberg said:

What this update actually says is that from now, some of the other tanks' shots at you will ignore your defence modules against their weapon. And that for several hundred Euros invested in ultra containers, Tanki will let you buy redemption against this annoyance.

You might see something positive in this update if you generally think that defence modules should be devalued. However, this technique of deliberately annoying players and customers and offering redemption only for serious money is not a successful development path for a game. While Alternativa might make some one-time money with those seeking to buy this redemption, many players and customers who do not like being deliberately annoyed will leave the game, and Alternativa will never again make money with them, while at the same time damaging their product by decreasing the number of players.

Besides the point of deliberately annoying players and customers by devaluing their defence modules, which I raised in my first comment on this, I find this further randomization of gameplay appalling. I liked the game that I joined many years ago for inviting strategy, tactics and the development of skills. These days, Tanki increasingly feels like gambling. Gambling for account development with all sorts of containers, and now more than ever gambling for battle success with chance shots.

[wolverine848 13,097]

6 minutes ago, von_Cronberg said:

So after playing extensively with the new update, I can clearly say that I decidedly dislike it.

 

Besides the point of deliberately annoying players and customers by devaluing their defence modules, which I raised in my first comment on this, I find this further randomization of gameplay appalling. I liked the game that I joined many years ago for inviting strategy, tactics and the development of skills. These days, Tanki increasingly feels like gambling. Gambling for account development with all sorts of containers, and now more than ever gambling for battle success with chance shots.

The players who cried about "too many high-protection modules" got their way.  I know they are loud, but did not realize there were so many of them to carry this much weight.

Re-spawning over-and-over again in 7-minute battles is just awesome!

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

43 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

The players who cried about "too many high-protection modules" got their way.  I know they are loud, but did not realize there were so many of them to carry this much weight.

What is so great about protection modules? What exactly do they contribute (besides being a crystal sink)? In what way do they either promote strategy or make the game more fun? Do they act as some sort of balancing mechanic?

Edited March 27, 2021 by ThirdOnion

[NobleWinchester 22]

This update could seem like a good idea, its still up in the air for me. Yes, it would be nice to get some more damage on ppl with 50 prot + defender, but I wouldn't devalue people's prots as much as this update did. In theory, it sounded like it had a little potential...maybe.  But the implementation has been dreadful so far, and this can be easily observed with railgun.

Augments like prime destabilization and scout could one shot a light hull with some change disregarding even 50 prot modules. But smoky remains more or less the same? It is evident that this update was poorly planned out, given the huge discrepancy of power between different turrets. Not to mention that the critical module is arguably one of the rarest items to obtain in the game now. You'd probably spend a fortune on ultra containers trying to get it, and spend another fortune of crystals upgrading it, as if people don't have other expenses in the game to worry about.

 

And I know when Tanki first announced the idea of critical damage, alot of people were skeptical and even against it. The biggest argument being, "Why use smoky if every turret can do critical damage". While I understand that it eliminates the dynamic of smoky, Tanki is an always evolving game. I was apprehensive at first too, but I still have this foolish fantasy that one day the game will return to the way it used to be, so I'm willing to give each update a fair chance before making a decision.

 

After giving this update a fair chance, I think its safe to say that if Tanki wants to keep critical damage in the game, it needs to go back to the drawing boards, and rework its mechanics...extensively. The devs are limiting our options here. First they release heat and cold immunities, eliminating the iconic characteristics of firebird and freeze. Now this update favors any hull other than light, as they clearly devalued in usefulness as a result of critical damage. Instead of diversifying gameplay, you guys are limiting it.

[EmeraldCat 562]

1 hour ago, ThirdOnion said:

What is so great about protection modules? What exactly do they contribute (besides being a crystal sink)? In what way do they either promote strategy or make the game more fun? Do they act as some sort of balancing mechanic?

From what I understand, protection modules were supposed to mix things up in battles. You start a match and some enemies don't have protection against you, but some do. It was supposed to be random. Protection modules were added for players that wanted a chance against turrets they didn't like.

But, Tanki is so imbalanced, that Modules ended up being predictable and most players would choose either Firebird, Thunder, or Railgun protection. Those 3 protection modules are literally the only ones I see a lot in battles, no other turret gets as much as those 3.

I think if the Devs were actually good at balancing turrets, I'm sure Modules wouldn't be a problem, but they are.

 

[alkyng 3,080]

What a nice new Drones page for Wiki !

What? Even the Wiki become useless? Isn't that enough that you ruined the shown info in HTML5 ? Yes it looks more modern and nicer, but at least keep a thing practical for the average people.. Who have the average level of thinking, not making the game with this stupidness assuming all of players are just foolish and under the average level of thinking. I'm not sure if Tanki through the days will go even under the under average level of thinking and will make the game more info-less.

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, ThirdOnion said:

What is so great about protection modules? What exactly do they contribute (besides being a crystal sink)? In what way do they either promote strategy or make the game more fun? Do they act as some sort of balancing mechanic?

They allow me to survive being one-shot by the very high damage turrets.  You are a fan of being one-shot?

They allow me to survive a bit longer period.  THAT alone makes the game more fun.  You like re-spawning every 30 seconds?  Not me.

I've invested a lot of crystals in them, and yes, they are a strategy.  Some players don't go into hot-zones very often, and thus devote few resources into them as they are not needed as much.  But I do, and the modules allow me to do this - take more punishment as I strive to get into the hot-zones.

Not sure how you figure nerfing modules drastically at this point is either good, or even neutral.

[wolverine848 13,097]

22 minutes ago, Emeraldcat345 said:

Firebird, Thunder, or Railgun protection.

LOL... I only used one of those.  After this update, there's no point in using even that one.

The frustrating thing in all of this... Critical mechanics could have been introduced without touching the modules.  Just figure out the % (Rail is a joke) and then assign fixed damage based that will give the same average damage as before the Critical mechanism.

But no - they went ahead and tied the modules into the Critcal, for no real reason.

Edited March 27, 2021 by wolverine848

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

16 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

They allow me to survive being one-shot by the very high damage turrets.  You are a fan of being one-shot?

They allow me to survive a bit longer period.  THAT alone makes the game more fun.  You like re-spawning every 30 seconds?  Not me.

I've invested a lot of crystals in them, and yes, they are a strategy.  Some players don't go into hot-zones very often, and thus devote few resources into them as they are not needed as much.  But I do, and the modules allow me to do this - take more punishment as I strive to get into the hot-zones.

Not sure how you figure nerfing modules drastically at this point is either good, or even neutral.

Protection modules are a very clumsy and naive way of addressing one-shots - because they don't only affect turrets with high alpha damage! There are a number of ways the problem of one-shots can be addressed, the simplest of which would be reducing single-shot damage. And modules need not offer as high as 50% to prevent one-shots. Modules may make games slightly more fun for the module wearer, but significantly more frustrating for those who have to fight against them.

[wolverine848 13,097]

17 minutes ago, ThirdOnion said:

Protection modules are a very clumsy and naive way of addressing one-shots - because they don't only affect turrets with high alpha damage! There are a number of ways the problem of one-shots can be addressed, the simplest of which would be reducing single-shot damage. And modules need not offer as high as 50% to prevent one-shots. Modules may make games slightly more fun for the module wearer, but significantly more frustrating for those who have to fight against them.

Well, I have to fight against them too, right?  But because I don't have the expectation of one-shotting every enemy I see I don't complain about them.

There's a lot of turrets that can be considered alpha-damage.  Fire, up close kills quick so that's alpha-damage.  Same with twins - since RKs are useless there.

You will get tons of complaints if the "alpha-damage" of players favorite turrets is lowered. Tons of complaints.

There's what... 14 sources of damage?  Some turrets deliver two types?  And we only get 3 modules.  There's absolutely no reason for players out there to complain about modules since you can't be protected against everyone.

Neutering modules out of the blue, after players have spent millions of crystals on them is a crappy way to "balance" things.

[EmeraldCat 562]

1 hour ago, wolverine848 said:

LOL... I only used one of those.  After this update, there's no point in using even that one.

The frustrating thing in all of this... Critical mechanics could have been introduced without touching the modules.  Just figure out the % (Rail is a joke) and then assign fixed damage based that will give the same average damage as before the Critical mechanism.

But no - they went ahead and tied the modules into the Critcal, for no real reason.

Theoretically speaking, if this is not an April Fools Joke, in a few months, I'm going to see a lot of Critical Protection Modules. Might as well throw Fox, Falcon, and Grizzly away.

[EmeraldCat 562]

1 hour ago, wolverine848 said:

The frustrating thing in all of this... Critical mechanics could have been introduced without touching the modules.  Just figure out the % (Rail is a joke) and then assign fixed damage based that will give the same average damage as before the Critical mechanism.

But no - they went ahead and tied the modules into the Critcal, for no real reason.

At this point, I don't want this update to be fixed by the Devs, I just want this update deleted. They kind of ruined their chances to release an actual good update, but they ruined it with this one. I'm sure if what you just said was their plan of action, I might've actually liked the update, but, they absolutely ruined it.

Literally just made every turret an AP turret, didn't hesitate when deciding Railgun, didn't even hesitate to make Smoky lose its uniqueness. Yeah, this has got to be probably the second worst update in Tanki history. 

[E_polypterus 2,374]

Best update ever, 19 pages in less than two days, all positive feedback of course.

[ThirdOnion 4,898]

2 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

Well, I have to fight against them too, right?  But because I don't have the expectation of one-shotting every enemy I see I don't complain about them.

There's a lot of turrets that can be considered alpha-damage.  Fire, up close kills quick so that's alpha-damage.  Same with twins - since RKs are useless there.

You will get tons of complaints if the "alpha-damage" of players favorite turrets is lowered. Tons of complaints.

There's what... 14 sources of damage?  Some turrets deliver two types?  And we only get 3 modules.  There's absolutely no reason for players out there to complain about modules since you can't be protected against everyone.

Neutering modules out of the blue, after players have spent millions of crystals on them is a crappy way to "balance" things.

As I said before, modules are a very crude solution to a problem that can be easily solved otherwise. They address a single problem, one-shots, but introduce three more:

• They significantly decrease the effectiveness of popular turrets, regardless of whether they are actually overpowered or not - the current state of Thunder (and to be honest, the state of Thunder for the past four years) is a good example. It's not particularly powerful, yet Grizzly modules are very common. 
• They punish homogenous team composition. Suppose a team is composed of players using three turrets, while the enemy team uses eight. The enemy team has a significant advantage because it can be fully protected against all turrets used by the other team, but not vice versa. This problem also occurs on a smaller scale, when a single player has to face 4-5 tanks with protection modules but can only protect themselves against three enemy players because that's just how the teams were composed. Just because you can equip protection modules doesn't mean you are on equal footing with an opponent wearing them.
• They cause wild swings in the effectiveness of turrets. Some turrets are very effective in the absence of modules, but become very weak when modules enter into the mix. This leads to a push to make these turrets more effective in spite of modules, resulting in the introduction of status effect augments.

It would be far easier to reduce damage rather than have to deal with all these unnecessary issues. So what if players complain; they'll get over it. There have been so many updates which provoked widespread complaints. A few years ago there were only two turrets with one-shot potential - Railgun and Shaft. Now there are four, plus a number of ways to boost damage. The number should really be dropped back down again.

Edited March 27, 2021 by ThirdOnion

[LOLKILLERTOTHEDEATH 1,921]

14 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

This will not stop buyers.

But it will certainly slow down or even stop F2P tankers from upgrading them if they happen to luck into one.  The more expensive TO makes things, the more unlikely non-buyers will be to have it.

Another element hidden from non-buyers behind a pay wall.  Kind of like all the turret augments were for a brief time.

That's true, but keep in mind that it's still not that badly overpowered. Yes, it grants resistance to critical hits from all turrets, but it's only critical hits, which for most turrets don't happen that often anyway. Worst case scenario, a regular player against this module will be stuck dealing the same damage they were prior to this update (that is, 50% critical protection and 50% turret protection makes for 50% overall). It'd be better if it was split up based on turrets or maybe range so that there was a resistance module for melee, short range and so on.

 

13 hours ago, cosmic666 said:

You present a nice and well thought out answer and somewhat countered my argument.

Somewhat is not good enough though, and as your playing devils advocate, i will counter you with a counter, counter.

All these OP imbalances could have been avoided if the devs had thought it through. Now i understand all about game economy, and yes it is needed in order to maintain TO and keep it viable for all concerned, but the devs have went about it all wrong (from a players perspective) 

If they have to introduce OP updates, keep them infrequent and maybe not as OP as they have been. Attach a sale onto them and make the update worthwhile for the majority of players.

When i say a sale, i mean one which the less fortunate players can benefit from also.

As much as i criticise the devs (for good reason) i no they are intelligent and therefore should be able to generate cash, AND balance the game out way more than it currently is.

Putting cash into TO is not a problem for me, the reason i stopped a long time ago to a large extent is because the game is just way over the top with OP gimmicks.

Battles are cluttered and more often than not one sided, with the OP players totally dominating.

It will only get worse with battles becoming meaningless for most players because quite simply, they just can't compete on the same level as the buyers. 

The amount of times i see players on either side leaving, with the spaces not getting filled up is becoming more frequent.

TO has major flaws, not just with balancing, but with the huge amount of cash they ask for, for their SPECIAL BUNDLES.

They keep doing this and they will inevitably price themselves out with all but a few hardened P2W stalwarts. 

TO is a mess and awash with far to many OP gimmicks, it needs a semblance of stability, all these OP updates will not remedy a game that is only aimed at P2W.

     

Well our limitation is that we only see one side of the story, that being the player's. To us, it doesn't make much sense to add augments such as the old EMP/stun railgun. I would agree that fewer updates with less OP items and just powerful but not OP items (such as the current Railgun Stun/EMP and EMP Salvo are) would be better. I think one of the problems they likely face is how non-buyers look at buying. I'm a buyer, and many times players just automatically make the assumption that because I buy in Tanki (mostly Battle pass, then once I bought the Jotun bundle)  I'm a noob and don't know how to play. The general attitude towards buying isn't very positive for most people at all. Better balance is something I think everybody wants to see, and I believe this is a step towards that, because as I've said, the extremely OP augments such as Railgun EMP and stun as well as EMP salvo have been massively nerfed in this update, to the point where they are no longer that dangerous. Also, there are bundles catering towards those who don't want to spend large amounts, such as this time the bundle for 1690 tankoins (15.99 USD I think is what you'd need to buy it) or the Valentines day bundle. Are these bundles going to turn people who buy them into gods? No, but in the past they didn't really exist, and we had bundles starting at 60/75$ or so. 

The other part of this, is that we don't have Tanki's side of things. Thus, we can comment on what we see, but our comments won't be completely accurate because we don't actually have half the story. I cannot offer you any explanation for why we're facing what we're facing. Though I definitely agree, the battles are not often evenly matched, rather it seems to be one team dominating. Usually the dominating team does have better GS, but sometimes the worse team has better GS. However, my key point is that things are getting better. We got shard containers, hull and turret augments (including AP), and now this nerf for EMP salvo and EMP railgun and stun Railgun. I'd say if not for this update, we would still have the extremely overpowered variants of these things, and maybe even get say Thunder EMP, but it's with sledgehammer and it applies the EMP effect on every shot for 5 or 6 seconds or something. Now, developers have the free reign to introduce EMP and Stun augments, and it won't break the game because it's not happening every time.  

[The_one_and_only 97]

Wait so only some turrets get a critical damage boost? The wiki shows it like that...

[Akame 4,578]

9 minutes ago, The_one_and_only said:

Wait so only some turrets get a critical damage boost? The wiki shows it like that...

Let me repeat, critical damage is a new damage type, it requires the new module (unfortunately only seems to be available in Ultra containers, why am i not surprised) to reduce this damage. 

Basic scenario; you use Isida, let's pretend you have a 1000 damage tick. you face someone who has 50% isida module, you deal 500 to them. They do not own crit resistance, so on crit damage, you 'ignore' their isida module to deal 1000 damage to them. This may help players when they face a gang that have a module against them. Some items do have a crit multiplier, but this module bypass still applies, just hope you don't face spectrum modules which have built in crit resistance, also not suprised, and if they have defender on, good luck with that.

Now as for crit chances and the crit damage, I will assume they are being re-evaluated, especially for the busted railgun.

My normal module set is Spider, Falcon, Owl. I am glad I don't use other modules, so I am essentially able to face against many turrets even with this change. But yes, I do not like being 1 shot by an LCR crit, getting the crit module is very luck based, it may be fun facing them once in a while, BUT seeing them in every game, atleast around 2, which are around 10x more common than Gauss, that is not fun. So if you are using railgun right now and I find you, I will come to fight you before you start harming my team.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Akame
Additional information included

[von_Cronberg 258]

Here is my third and last comment on the topic: I just played some more battles. This update becomes even more horrible with players adapting to it. The only positive thing I can see about this update is that Tanki forcefully nudges me to spend my time with stuff more meaningful than this game. I'm out.

[Karot 251]

Alright so with this update they buffed everything to the point where a Viking m4 will get 1 shotted by a railgun :/