Striker vs railgun

[r_Fish.tank980 47]

Striker has a HP per shot of 880 per missile, and railgun has HP per shot of 900 at MK7+. Striker also has splash damage, which is 90% on average of the damage of a direct hit. Ie, it has splash damage of 465 HP. Then, the shots also autoaim, so you have to be lucky to escape them. 

At max level, incorporating the increasing chance of a critical for striker, it deals HP between 880 and 959 (= normal damage*0.9 + critical dmg*0.1) on average. This is for a single rocket. The reload speed for a single rocket for striker is 1.7s. Thus, it deals between 880/1.7 = 517.64 and 959/1.7 = 564.11 HP/second, including reload time. This doesnt even include the splash damage. 

For railgun, you have either a 10% chance of a critical on first shot, or 50% chance thereafter. This gives damage per shot of 970 to 1250 (1250 = normal damage*0.5 + critical damage*0.5) on average if you include the chance of a critical shot (see formula). The reload time for MK7+ rail is 3.7s, and the shot warmup time is 1.1s. Therefore, the absolute minimum time between shots is 1.1 + 3.7 = 4.8s. Then, to get the average HP per second, we have 

970/4.8 = 202.08 and 1250/4.8 = 260.42 HP/second. When you consider that rail has no splash damage (okay it can shoot through tanks but this is not the same), and has no auto aiming, and it also does not have the ability to shoot 4 missiles at once which also deal splash damage, how on earth is this balanced? 

 

Rail should have one of most damaging shots, yet it struggles to deal even half the total damage per second. If you are in a battle with rail vs striker, on average they will have dealt twice the damage you will have dealt to them for every second that goes by. Or to put this in other terms, imagine that you were 1v1 with a striker for 4.8 seconds. You would expect to have dealt an absolute max of 1600 HP (the critical shot dmg for rail at MK7+). The striker however can shoot once every 1.7 seconds, which gives 2 shots during that same time, so assuming they are normal, non critical shots, that would already give you two shots at 880HP each = 1760HP. That's 160HP more at a minimum than rail in the space of only 4.8 seconds. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by r_Fish.tank980
changed 1250 to 1600 in final paragraph

[Iron_Man 2,376]

1 minute ago, r_Fish.tank980 said:

 

Topic Moved

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

The first thing wrong here is that Railgun has a 50% chance to obtain a critical hit on its first shot, not 10%.

Edited July 1, 2021 by TheCongoSpider

[r_Fish.tank980 47]

6 minutes ago, TheCongoSpider said:

The first thing wrong here is that Railgun has a 50% chance to obtain a critical hit on its first shot, not 10%.

My bad, fix coming shortly. 

[mjmj5558 2,346]

1 hour ago, r_Fish.tank980 said:

Striker has a HP per shot of 880 per missile, and railgun has HP per shot of 900 at MK7+. Striker also has splash damage, which is 90% on average of the damage of a direct hit. Ie, it has splash damage of 465 HP. Then, the shots also autoaim, so you have to be lucky to escape them. 

At max level, incorporating the increasing chance of a critical for striker, it deals HP between 880 and 959 (= normal damage*0.9 + critical dmg*0.1) on average. This is for a single rocket. The reload speed for a single rocket for striker is 1.7s. Thus, it deals between 880/1.7 = 517.64 and 959/1.7 = 564.11 HP/second, including reload time. This doesnt even include the splash damage. 

For railgun, you have either a 10% chance of a critical on first shot, or 50% chance thereafter. This gives damage per shot of 970 to 1250 (1250 = normal damage*0.5 + critical damage*0.5) on average if you include the chance of a critical shot (see formula). The reload time for MK7+ rail is 3.7s, and the shot warmup time is 1.1s. Therefore, the absolute minimum time between shots is 1.1 + 3.7 = 4.8s. Then, to get the average HP per second, we have 

970/4.8 = 202.08 and 1250/4.8 = 260.42 HP/second. When you consider that rail has no splash damage (okay it can shoot through tanks but this is not the same), and has no auto aiming, and it also does not have the ability to shoot 4 missiles at once which also deal splash damage, how on earth is this balanced? 

 

Rail should have one of most damaging shots, yet it struggles to deal even half the total damage per second. If you are in a battle with rail vs striker, on average they will have dealt twice the damage you will have dealt to them for every second that goes by. Or to put this in other terms, imagine that you were 1v1 with a striker for 4.8 seconds. You would expect to have dealt an absolute max of 1600 HP (the critical shot dmg for rail at MK7+). The striker however can shoot once every 1.7 seconds, which gives 2 shots during that same time, so assuming they are normal, non critical shots, that would already give you two shots at 880HP each = 1760HP. That's 160HP more at a minimum than rail in the space of only 4.8 seconds. 

 

 

 

 

 

There's one thing you forgot, and that's the characteristic of the turrets: striker is a medium ranged turret, while railgun is a long ranged turret, and it's very difficult for strikers to hit at longer range due to the speed of the rocket. Railgun has "autoaim" because it's an instant hit, you can't avoid it. Going from meele to long ranged category, each turret will have less DPS. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, r_Fish.tank980 said:

Striker has a HP per shot of 880 per missile, and railgun has HP per shot of 900 at MK7+. Striker also has splash damage, which is 90% on average of the damage of a direct hit. Ie, it has splash damage of 465 HP. Then, the shots also autoaim, so you have to be lucky to escape them. 

At max level, incorporating the increasing chance of a critical for striker, it deals HP between 880 and 959 (= normal damage*0.9 + critical dmg*0.1) on average. This is for a single rocket. The reload speed for a single rocket for striker is 1.7s. Thus, it deals between 880/1.7 = 517.64 and 959/1.7 = 564.11 HP/second, including reload time. This doesnt even include the splash damage. 

For railgun, you have either a 10% chance of a critical on first shot, or 50% chance thereafter. This gives damage per shot of 970 to 1250 (1250 = normal damage*0.5 + critical damage*0.5) on average if you include the chance of a critical shot (see formula). The reload time for MK7+ rail is 3.7s, and the shot warmup time is 1.1s. Therefore, the absolute minimum time between shots is 1.1 + 3.7 = 4.8s. Then, to get the average HP per second, we have 

970/4.8 = 202.08 and 1250/4.8 = 260.42 HP/second. When you consider that rail has no splash damage (okay it can shoot through tanks but this is not the same), and has no auto aiming, and it also does not have the ability to shoot 4 missiles at once which also deal splash damage, how on earth is this balanced? 

 

Rail should have one of most damaging shots, yet it struggles to deal even half the total damage per second. If you are in a battle with rail vs striker, on average they will have dealt twice the damage you will have dealt to them for every second that goes by. Or to put this in other terms, imagine that you were 1v1 with a striker for 4.8 seconds. You would expect to have dealt an absolute max of 1600 HP (the critical shot dmg for rail at MK7+). The striker however can shoot once every 1.7 seconds, which gives 2 shots during that same time, so assuming they are normal, non critical shots, that would already give you two shots at 880HP each = 1760HP. That's 160HP more at a minimum than rail in the space of only 4.8 seconds. 

 

 

 

 

 

What "auto-aiming" are you talking about for striker?

And trying to calculate DPS for ranged turrets is silly.  What two tanks with ranged turrets are dueling out in the open with absolutely no cover?  DPS only matters for melee turrets because they are in fact "dueling out in the open".

Edited July 1, 2021 by wolverine848

[Frylock 1,617]

51 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

What "auto-aiming" are you talking about for striker?

And trying to calculate DPS for ranged turrets is silly.  What two tanks with ranged turrets are dueling out in the open with absolutely no cover?  DPS only matters for melee turrets because they are in fact "dueling out in the open".

I think what he means by auto-aim is the high aim assist on mobile. Or the auto shoot feature on mobile. Or the homing feature of striker after lock on.

[Abellia 504]

2 hours ago, r_Fish.tank980 said:

Striker has a HP per shot of 880 per missile, and railgun has HP per shot of 900 at MK7+. Striker also has splash damage, which is 90% on average of the damage of a direct hit. Ie, it has splash damage of 465 HP. Then, the shots also autoaim, so you have to be lucky to escape them. 

At max level, incorporating the increasing chance of a critical for striker, it deals HP between 880 and 959 (= normal damage*0.9 + critical dmg*0.1) on average. This is for a single rocket. The reload speed for a single rocket for striker is 1.7s. Thus, it deals between 880/1.7 = 517.64 and 959/1.7 = 564.11 HP/second, including reload time. This doesnt even include the splash damage. 

For railgun, you have either a 10% chance of a critical on first shot, or 50% chance thereafter. This gives damage per shot of 970 to 1250 (1250 = normal damage*0.5 + critical damage*0.5) on average if you include the chance of a critical shot (see formula). The reload time for MK7+ rail is 3.7s, and the shot warmup time is 1.1s. Therefore, the absolute minimum time between shots is 1.1 + 3.7 = 4.8s. Then, to get the average HP per second, we have 

970/4.8 = 202.08 and 1250/4.8 = 260.42 HP/second. When you consider that rail has no splash damage (okay it can shoot through tanks but this is not the same), and has no auto aiming, and it also does not have the ability to shoot 4 missiles at once which also deal splash damage, how on earth is this balanced? 

 

Rail should have one of most damaging shots, yet it struggles to deal even half the total damage per second. If you are in a battle with rail vs striker, on average they will have dealt twice the damage you will have dealt to them for every second that goes by. Or to put this in other terms, imagine that you were 1v1 with a striker for 4.8 seconds. You would expect to have dealt an absolute max of 1600 HP (the critical shot dmg for rail at MK7+). The striker however can shoot once every 1.7 seconds, which gives 2 shots during that same time, so assuming they are normal, non critical shots, that would already give you two shots at 880HP each = 1760HP. That's 160HP more at a minimum than rail in the space of only 4.8 seconds. 

...???
I can't tell if this is ironic or not, but I'll try to explain.

Firstly, regarding DPS - there are other factors for combat effectiveness. Railgun requires far less exposure time than Striker does, and its shots are hitscan, meaning there is no travel time and they cannot be dodged. As well, Railgun has significantly higher impact force that is more consistent as a result of the hitscan, and it has much higher base damage per shot, letting it end engagements far earlier given circumstances (oneshotting unprotected light hulls and medium hulls on criticals, and potentially protected ones with Round Destabilization).  Factors such as exposure time, impact force, and projectile type work in conjunction with reload to define the role that a turret plays. Striker is meant to engage in closer combat with less cover compared to Rail, which might hang back and peek out only to fire, whereas Striker will have to be exposed more often and thus take damage more often. A railgun is not meant to win in a straight shootout with a Striker, there is no issue here.

As for splash versus penetration - penetration is harder to make use of, but simultaneously carries no risk of self damage. There are equally good augments for both turrets that make use of their mechanics (RRE and Hyperspace) and aside from that, they are also merely characteristics that define the role of the turret. Striker gets to attack clustered tanks more effectively from close quarters but risks self damage, and Railgun gets to punish clustered tanks at the cost of lining up shots - which both just define the roles of the turrets.

Lastly, the salvo. The salvo requires at least 2.8 seconds of exposure time, more for the missiles to travel. This is the same as was explained in my first paragraph, there is a significant tradeoff for the salvo, and it fits exactly into their roles; Striker requires more exposure time but gets to do heavier damage, while Railgun gets more safety from cover.

Striker and Railgun are different turrets, and fill different roles. They behave differently, and their statistics reflect that.

[kydapoot 570]

Hey also just chiming in - every turret except Firebird and Freeze (which shoot in a cone instead) has auto-aim, even on desktop. When your turret is pointed at someone (side-to-side), there's a vertical angle range that the shot can go, and it'll automatically go in the direction of the tank you're aimed at. You can effectively extend this auto-aim range by rocking your hull.

So, when you fire a railgun or a striker (normal) shot at anyone who isn't directly in front of your turret, but rather above or below where it's pointing, the shot will still go towards them. This is more effective with railgun though, since once the shot fires they're hit instantly, whereas striker's missile can miss targets that are both on a different elevation and moving laterally.

Of course, striker has targeting capabilities, but that's a whole other deal that requires lock-on time, and still isn't perfect.

Edited July 1, 2021 by kydapoot

[frezeandvik 71]

6 hours ago, r_Fish.tank980 said:

This gives damage per shot of 970 to 1250

So you're suggesting that Railgun must have average damage of 1940 to 2500 per-shot? To make Railgun have 500+ DPS like Striker?!! what a farce comparison, in DPS fight melee/medium ranged turret will always win!

Also your comparison is somehow meaningless, the correct comparison is to do with the LCR Railgun, because it's the most used/the only representor Railgun Augment.

Even though I see LCR is in a disadvantage compared to Magnum and Gauss, it should have the same 1745 constant dmg of them.

6 hours ago, r_Fish.tank980 said:

Striker has a HP per shot of 880 per missile, and railgun has HP per shot of 900 at MK7+. Striker also has splash damage, which is 90% on average of the damage of a direct hit. Ie, it has splash damage of 465 HP.

Also honestly this is the most weird sentence I have heard!! how you assumed the average splash-damage of Striker as 465..! more than the half of normal damage!!  I will tell you that if we want to put the splash-damage into consideration it wont be higher than 200dmg per-shot, so it will be 880 (Striker damage) + 200 = 1080, not with your unreasonably assumed 880 + 465 = 1345dmg..!  It's the Striker splash-damage, you're not talking about the splash of Magnum or old Gauss !

[wolverine848 13,097]

8 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

I think what he means by auto-aim is the high aim assist on mobile. Or the auto shoot feature on mobile. Or the homing feature of striker after lock on.

Well ALL turrets have auto-aim on mobile.

For lock-on, I hope someone remembers to include the lock-on time and the LASER.

[wolverine848 13,097]

4 hours ago, frezeandvik said:

Also honestly this is the most weird sentence I have heard!! how you assumed the average splash-damage of Striker as 465..! more than the half of normal damage!!  I will tell you that if we want to put the splash-damage into consideration it wont be higher than 200dmg per-shot, so it will be 880 (Striker damage) + 200 = 1080, not with your unreasonably assumed 880 + 465 = 1345dmg..!  It's the Striker splash-damage, you're not talking about the splash of Magnum or old Gauss !

Where is that 1345 dmg number coming from?   Don't see it anywhere above.  And I would not expect to since you don't add splash damage to your target.

[DarkPredator 212]

5 hours ago, wolverine848 said:

Where is that 1345 dmg number coming from?   Don't see it anywhere above.  And I would not expect to since you don't add splash damage to your target.

 

9 hours ago, frezeandvik said:

So you're suggesting that Railgun must have average damage of 1940 to 2500 per-shot? To make Railgun have 500+ DPS like Striker?!! what a farce comparison, in DPS fight melee/medium ranged turret will always win!

Also your comparison is somehow meaningless, the correct comparison is to do with the LCR Railgun, because it's the most used/the only representor Railgun Augment.

Even though I see LCR is in a disadvantage compared to Magnum and Gauss, it should have the same 1745 constant dmg of them.

Also honestly this is the most weird sentence I have heard!! how you assumed the average splash-damage of Striker as 465..! more than the half of normal damage!!  I will tell you that if we want to put the splash-damage into consideration it wont be higher than 200dmg per-shot, so it will be 880 (Striker damage) + 200 = 1080, not with your unreasonably assumed 880 + 465 = 1345dmg..!  It's the Striker splash-damage, you're not talking about the splash of Magnum or old Gauss !

 

12 hours ago, kydapoot said:

Hey also just chiming in - every turret except Firebird and Freeze (which shoot in a cone instead) has auto-aim, even on desktop. When your turret is pointed at someone (side-to-side), there's a vertical angle range that the shot can go, and it'll automatically go in the direction of the tank you're aimed at. You can effectively extend this auto-aim range by rocking your hull.

So, when you fire a railgun or a striker (normal) shot at anyone who isn't directly in front of your turret, but rather above or below where it's pointing, the shot will still go towards them. This is more effective with railgun though, since once the shot fires they're hit instantly, whereas striker's missile can miss targets that are both on a different elevation and moving laterally.

Of course, striker has targeting capabilities, but that's a whole other deal that requires lock-on time, and still isn't perfect.

 

13 hours ago, Abellia said:

...???
I can't tell if this is ironic or not, but I'll try to explain.

Firstly, regarding DPS - there are other factors for combat effectiveness. Railgun requires far less exposure time than Striker does, and its shots are hitscan, meaning there is no travel time and they cannot be dodged. As well, Railgun has significantly higher impact force that is more consistent as a result of the hitscan, and it has much higher base damage per shot, letting it end engagements far earlier given circumstances (oneshotting unprotected light hulls and medium hulls on criticals, and potentially protected ones with Round Destabilization).  Factors such as exposure time, impact force, and projectile type work in conjunction with reload to define the role that a turret plays. Striker is meant to engage in closer combat with less cover compared to Rail, which might hang back and peek out only to fire, whereas Striker will have to be exposed more often and thus take damage more often. A railgun is not meant to win in a straight shootout with a Striker, there is no issue here.

As for splash versus penetration - penetration is harder to make use of, but simultaneously carries no risk of self damage. There are equally good augments for both turrets that make use of their mechanics (RRE and Hyperspace) and aside from that, they are also merely characteristics that define the role of the turret. Striker gets to attack clustered tanks more effectively from close quarters but risks self damage, and Railgun gets to punish clustered tanks at the cost of lining up shots - which both just define the roles of the turrets.

Lastly, the salvo. The salvo requires at least 2.8 seconds of exposure time, more for the missiles to travel. This is the same as was explained in my first paragraph, there is a significant tradeoff for the salvo, and it fits exactly into their roles; Striker requires more exposure time but gets to do heavier damage, while Railgun gets more safety from cover.

Striker and Railgun are different turrets, and fill different roles. They behave differently, and their statistics reflect that.

 

14 hours ago, MysticBlood said:

I think what he means by auto-aim is the high aim assist on mobile. Or the auto shoot feature on mobile. Or the homing feature of striker after lock on.

 

15 hours ago, mjmj5558 said:

There's one thing you forgot, and that's the characteristic of the turrets: striker is a medium ranged turret, while railgun is a long ranged turret, and it's very difficult for strikers to hit at longer range due to the speed of the rocket. Railgun has "autoaim" because it's an instant hit, you can't avoid it. Going from meele to long ranged category, each turret will have less DPS. 

 

16 hours ago, r_Fish.tank980 said:

My bad, fix coming shortly. 

 

16 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

The first thing wrong here is that Railgun has a 50% chance to obtain a critical hit on its first shot, not 10%.

 

16 hours ago, r_Fish.tank980 said:

Striker has a HP per shot of 880 per missile, and railgun has HP per shot of 900 at MK7+. Striker also has splash damage, which is 90% on average of the damage of a direct hit. Ie, it has splash damage of 465 HP. Then, the shots also autoaim, so you have to be lucky to escape them. 

At max level, incorporating the increasing chance of a critical for striker, it deals HP between 880 and 959 (= normal damage*0.9 + critical dmg*0.1) on average. This is for a single rocket. The reload speed for a single rocket for striker is 1.7s. Thus, it deals between 880/1.7 = 517.64 and 959/1.7 = 564.11 HP/second, including reload time. This doesnt even include the splash damage. 

For railgun, you have either a 10% chance of a critical on first shot, or 50% chance thereafter. This gives damage per shot of 970 to 1250 (1250 = normal damage*0.5 + critical damage*0.5) on average if you include the chance of a critical shot (see formula). The reload time for MK7+ rail is 3.7s, and the shot warmup time is 1.1s. Therefore, the absolute minimum time between shots is 1.1 + 3.7 = 4.8s. Then, to get the average HP per second, we have 

970/4.8 = 202.08 and 1250/4.8 = 260.42 HP/second. When you consider that rail has no splash damage (okay it can shoot through tanks but this is not the same), and has no auto aiming, and it also does not have the ability to shoot 4 missiles at once which also deal splash damage, how on earth is this balanced? 

 

Rail should have one of most damaging shots, yet it struggles to deal even half the total damage per second. If you are in a battle with rail vs striker, on average they will have dealt twice the damage you will have dealt to them for every second that goes by. Or to put this in other terms, imagine that you were 1v1 with a striker for 4.8 seconds. You would expect to have dealt an absolute max of 1600 HP (the critical shot dmg for rail at MK7+). The striker however can shoot once every 1.7 seconds, which gives 2 shots during that same time, so assuming they are normal, non critical shots, that would already give you two shots at 880HP each = 1760HP. That's 160HP more at a minimum than rail in the space of only 4.8 seconds. 

 

 

 

 

 

check it out

[DarkPredator 212]

[Mr.Spark 240]

Railgun will be stronger than striker

 

 

[frezeandvik 71]

On 7/2/2021 at 5:21 AM, wolverine848 said:

Where is that 1345 dmg number coming from?   Don't see it anywhere above.  And I would not expect to since you don't add splash damage to your target.

The TS is the one who putted the splash-damage into account, and he considered it as 465HP. While I said if we want to put the splash-damage into account it shouldn't pass 200HP.

On 7/1/2021 at 6:24 PM, r_Fish.tank980 said:

Striker also has splash damage, which is 90% on average of the damage of a direct hit. Ie, it has splash damage of 465 HP.

 

[wolverine848 13,097]

1 hour ago, frezeandvik said:

The TS is the one who putted the splash-damage into account, and he considered it as 465HP. While I said if we want to put the splash-damage into account it shouldn't pass 200HP.

 

NO splash damage should be added to the amount for a direct hit.  You do one OR the other.