declined Introduce proper aiming for mouse controls

[Hypersomnia 1,695]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:24 PM, Son_Goku said:

Mate, the game's foundation was made in 2009 by just two developers. As they said in the video, they struggled to implement it, probably because of missing technology in old flash and I can also imagine that some of the old code was hard to work with. You gotta chill a bit bro

They're also humans like us, not some code generating AI. Especially not in 2009-2015.

then what about them to delay literally every feature at this point no matter how hard/simple it is lmao.

Look the container "update" it took them 6 months even after they showed the animations and new mechanics, UI everything. Their excuse was "to test the opening of containers so we can be sure there are no glitches" goddamn you must be opening some containers then if it took you 6 months. Not to talk about earlier mentioned contracts. They we're mentioned A YEAR before DDoS attacks. So what 2 or 3 years? And they we're not just mentioned the UI for them was literally showed. Come on dude

[natrolite 1,049]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:27 PM, Kimura said:

then what about them to delay literally every feature at this point no matter how hard/simple it is lmao.

Look the container "update" it took them 6 months even after they showed the animations and new mechanics, UI everything. Their excuse was "to test the opening of containers so we can be sure there are no glitches" goddamn you must be opening some containers then if it took you 6 months. Not to talk about earlier mentioned contracts. They we're mentioned A YEAR before DDoS attacks. So what 2 or 3 years? And they we're not just mentioned the UI for them was literally showed. Come on dude

Let's put it this way. Tanki is developed by Alternativa Games, a for-profit company. They employ full-time staff to run, improve, and maintain the project. Those employees, again, do this for a living - and employing them costs money and resources. It's generally accepted that hiring a full team of coders, designers, administrative and marketing specialists (etc) and having them sit around and do nothing is not a wise business strategy. These people are constantly working on updates and improvements. They are (by virtue of the studio being a for-profit company) trying to bring out these changes as efficiently as possible. 

Another point I'd like to mention is that the development team, to my understanding, is rarely ever working on a single project at once, they have other demanding things that they have to work on and implement on time, iOS Tanki being just one example. So, while the time they took to introduce the new container changes surely was longer than expected, they did the best they could, under the workload they had, to meet the standards they were expected to reach. 

Lastly, as a general rule in life, you shouldn't judge something's difficulty unless you're proficient at it and can do it better. Unless you're a professional programmer who can write code quicker and cleaner than they can, perhaps you shouldn't underestimate their work.

[Iquit 101]

@natrolite would you agree if I said they dont put enough effort in their game and its performance for the prices that are in the shop?

[natrolite 1,049]

On 1/23/2024 at 12:40 AM, master_howitzer said:

@natrolite would you agree if I said they dont put enough effort in their game and its performance for the prices that are in the shop?

I don't recommend continuing this line of discussion as it's getting pretty off-topic. But still, I'm not in any place to judge or make claims. The prices set in the shop aren't arbitrary, it's set like that after careful consideration of the game economy and the player base.

Moreover, as I mentioned above, these peoples' livelihoods depend on the well-being of this game. They have families to feed and rent to pay. So, I suppose they put in just about that much effort.

[Iquit 101]

I'm glad the majority of players are agreeing about adding a visible cursor that allows manual vertical aim for mouse controls. It couldn't be that hard to do if all the other 3d tank games have this.

[Son_Goku 514]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:48 PM, master_howitzer said:

I'm glad the majority of players are agreeing

 

Manual vertical aiming no, crosshair would make us even more overpowered. But I wouldn't mind having a crosshair.

[natrolite 1,049]

On 1/23/2024 at 12:48 AM, master_howitzer said:

I'm glad the majority of players are agreeing about adding a visible cursor that allows manual vertical aim for mouse controls. It couldn't be that hard to do if all the other 3d tank games have this.

This would essentially make using mouse akin to a scope-less Shaft gameplay. Effectively more powerful than it is now.

[Iquit 101]

no it wouldnt make you more over buffed. you would loose your automatic vertical aim

 

[DefkwargX 152]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:17 PM, Maf said:

so I'm changing the idea status to declined

Am no expert, but can smell nonsense from a mile away sometimes.

[Maf 32,300]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:34 AM, DefkwargX said:

Am no expert, but can smell nonsense from a mile away sometimes.

Care to clarify? I'm open to criticism.

[PirateSpider 1,489]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:18 PM, master_howitzer said:

no it wouldnt make you more over buffed. you would loose your automatic vertical aim

 

Personally, I never used mouse controls unless I was using hovering hulls. When I was using track hulls, I would use keyboard. So I don't really know how much the difference would be for vertical auto aim vs manual aiming system in tanki.

There is something you should make clear of which is:

 

->whether or not the vertical aim limit would stay as it is or get completely removed <-

[DefkwargX 152]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:42 AM, Maf said:

Care to clarify? I'm open to criticism.

I asked you to change the status of this suggestion from ''under review'' to ''declined'' while its status was still ''under review''. I meant to say that i somehow knew that this idea was nonsensical.

[Maf 32,300]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:50 AM, DefkwargX said:

I asked you to change the status of this suggestion from ''under review'' to ''declined'' while its status was still ''under review''. I meant to say that i somehow knew that this idea was nonsensical.

Oh, I see. We're never in a rush to update idea statuses, especially if there's an ongoing discussion.

[Hypersomnia 1,695]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:32 PM, natrolite said:

Let's put it this way. Tanki is developed by Alternativa Games, a for-profit company. They employ full-time staff to run, improve, and maintain the project. Those employees, again, do this for a living - and employing them costs money and resources. It's generally accepted that hiring a full team of coders, designers, administrative and marketing specialists (etc) and having them sit around and do nothing is not a wise business strategy. These people are constantly working on updates and improvements. They are (by virtue of the studio being a for-profit company) trying to bring out these changes as efficiently as possible. 

Another point I'd like to mention is that the development team, to my understanding, is rarely ever working on a single project at once, they have other demanding things that they have to work on and implement on time, iOS Tanki being just one example. So, while the time they took to introduce the new container changes surely was longer than expected, they did the best they could, under the workload they had, to meet the standards they were expected to reach. 

Lastly, as a general rule in life, you shouldn't judge something's difficulty unless you're proficient at it and can do it better. Unless you're a professional programmer who can write code quicker and cleaner than they can, perhaps you shouldn't underestimate their work.

Buddy I may look like a drama supernova in this game (because it's my tanki gimmick LOL) but irl I do commisions for Graphics Design, 2D animation, Character design, drawing custom wallpapers, posters etc. and I did interior design once. I do know that people expect for things to be done at light speed like for reference a "low budget" 2D animation takes 1 hour of work for 1 SECOND (24 frames) and people expect a minute or two animation to be done in a couple of weeks or something. But I just tell them that's not how it works and I have studies and life to live and guess what 99% they're absolutely cool with this. I show my progress then eventually I finish and give them the thing they asked for. Now imagine what would happen if I showed them my finished product and just went "Oh you see I'll need 5 more months to finish this" with no explanation. How do you they they'd react? Because that's exactly what tanki are doing. I'm no coder but when I see a FINISHED UI THAT IS CLEARLY IN TANKI TEST VERSION AND IS SHOWN WORKING COMPLETELY FINE I'd imagine that the coders already did their job and the testing that is left should not be taking LITERAL YEARS.  

Even the containers example. They showed full animations and everything work. Now they gave a month for players to prepare that's cool. They added conversion system and tested it. We saw everything works fine. Oh it got delayed. Oh it got delayed again. Oh... delay... Oh... it's finally here. Yay... If you know you're 6 months away from finishing something you don't just show it to your paying customers. The outrage players had is completely justified because this is just absurd. Not to say they're clearly getting greedier with every update.

 

TL; DR when admin show finished product. I expect for it to not take 5 years to be added

[Opex-Rah 5,375]

On 1/23/2024 at 12:29 PM, Kimura said:

Even the containers example. They showed full animations and everything work. Now they gave a month for players to prepare that's cool. They added conversion system and tested it. We saw everything works fine. Oh it got delayed. Oh it got delayed again. Oh... delay... Oh... it's finally here. Yay... If you know you're 6 months away from finishing something you don't just show it to your paying customers. The outrage players had is completely justified because this is just absurd. Not to say they're clearly getting greedier with every update.

This discussion is going completely off the rails, but let me ask you something nevertheless. 

I see how you have some understanding of what it takes to make designs and animations in 2D. The understanding of how long it takes to draw something is in line with what my team can do design-wise. I can expect a mockup screen ready tomorrow for anything I desire.

But do you have any understanding of what it takes to implement it in the game? Because making pretty pictures and videos (such as container opening) is an easy part.

For example. Take a look at this. Do you think this is a ready-to-go system? https://www.instagram.com/p/C0zbQC8JJsf/?hl=en

It is a mockup. A beautiful design not connected to any in-game systems. It would take half a year working on this alone to make it shippable without half of the effects on screen as they do not exist in the game's engine.

The same thing with the Containers. Video of "everything" working is only just that. A video. The hard part is changing the architecture of the game to accommodate Keys and support the conversion of all the containers for all of the players. Tested to its limit so we won't screw up on release. This involves not building new architecture, but working with the old one. Nobody likes working with the old one. Simultaneously, the entire design has to support all screen resolutions possible. That takes ages to implement correctly and bug-test.

My man, if you can do that faster than my team you have a bright future in game development.

 

TL;DR: This is why we are not telling you what we are working on right now. You can not distinguish between a fake video and a ready project. Half of the team missing for two years and you will know what's up when it is done.

 

On Topic: making free-aim controls is not only the most expensive way to make mouse controls even more preferable, but also will take ages to implement. You do not want to change the core game system when you are 15 years deep in the project.

[Hypersomnia 1,695]

On 1/23/2024 at 3:11 PM, Opex-Rah said:

This discussion is going completely off the rails, but let me ask you something nevertheless........

GOOD.

now say that in V-Logs and not just forums with 20 people. Like I said i'm involved in the art department a lot and thats what it looked like to me. For casual player its even worse. this info should be shared in places like V-LOG and if players after that complain about long waiting time for update well its their fault because they refuse to accept the facts. reminder that many players share the same opinion as my previous one when it comes to update speed. so when talking about an update a note HAS TO BE MADE to tell people who don't work in game development with how tanki does their updates. 

Thank you for clearing things up mr hazel. 
 

And when will this happen? This is related to mouse controls since I can use phoenix with mouse controls.
A quote from official tanki facebook. 

Quote

 

We will not announce what characteristics the turrets and hulls gain from these cool-sounding “Phoenix” augments just yet — we’ll let the first owners disclose it. We can only promise one thing: they’re worth it. 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=622370203257838&set=pb.100064545915668.-2207520000&type=3

when will the info become public?

 

[Opex-Rah 5,375]

On 1/23/2024 at 6:46 PM, Kimura said:

so when talking about an update a note HAS TO BE MADE to tell people who don't work in game development with how tanki does their updates.

Naaaah. I like it when people have something to wait for. Without it, we wouldn't have a Drama Supernova.

[Maf 32,300]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:46 PM, Kimura said:

now say that in V-Logs and not just forums with 20 people.

The people watching V-logs couldn't care less about this stuff. They want to know about the next sales, the upcoming challenge, tanki fund prizes and youtuber highlights.

 

On 1/23/2024 at 11:29 AM, Kimura said:

TL; DR when admin show finished product. I expect for it to not take 5 years to be added

Cybertruck moment

[Maf 32,300]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:18 AM, master_howitzer said:

no it wouldnt make you more over buffed. you would loose your automatic vertical aim

 

You mistakenly think that autoaim is superior to manual aiming. For the first few days while people are getting used to the news aiming system - yes, manual aiming will be less effective that autoaim. But one people get a bit of practice with it, being able to know exactly where your shot will fire is a huge advantage. It would make lots of shots much easier to hit, especially in situations where you need to lead your shots AND shoot above/below you. 

On 1/23/2024 at 10:46 AM, PirateSpider said:

There is something you should make clear of which is:

->whether or not the vertical aim limit would stay as it is or get completely removed <-

The vertical aim limit (a.k.a. the maximum elevation and depression angles) would definitely need to stay, as it's an important factor used in balancing turrets.

[Iquit 101]

@Maf the game is automatically aiming vertically for you. Take that away and the game requires more effort. Instead of moving your mouse left and right only, now you are required to move it up and down at the same.

the only way I would agree with you is because of the crappy lagging delay animation that has plagued this game since the mobile version of the game launched years ago. 

the enemy on a higher or lower plane glows red, meaning I am aiming horizontally at it ready to fire, and it doesn't work. It just shoots harmlessly straight parallel to the ground above or below it instead of auto aiming up or down. 

I randomly got the newest buyer's augment for striker and so of course I try it but its so frustrating because I'm over buffed with the new buyer's augment, but the delay animation lag whatever it is, makes the enemy tank glowing red animation when you aim at it, completely worthless.

This is the only way your opinion could be valid, because the highlighted enemy tank mechanic that tells you the game is ready to auto aim vertically is broken and wont auto aim up or down for you if you shoot (not all the time of course like when both tanks aren't moving)

also my non splash damage buyer augment rocket will hit an enemy directly sometimes and do no damage because it didn't actually hit in the game, only on my screen. the poor animation lag delay just took a crap on my game play.

manually pointing and clicking on the area where you want to shoot would completely bypass this everlasting problem, therefor yes your opinion is valid

 

[Iquit 101]

@Maf also yes dont let the manually aiming cursor go to the very top or bottom of the screen. keep the max aiming elevation fair. Its like 30 degrees or something right.

also what if melee turrets could aim higher than that. like slightly higher than 45 degrees.

I wish and was hoping the a game devs would eventually realize that isida deserves WAY more up and down aim. freeze and firebird have a pointless large aoe like the shape of 1/4 of a circle but isida is just crap when it comes to aiming. and telsa is its own thing with the easy kid friendly just shoot at the ball lightning and the game does the rest for you.

isida is just too annoying to use even though the low range doesn't bother me. Little timmy impact force just pushes me away either horizontally or even vertically lifting the front end my medium hull off of the ground forcing me to wait for it to come back down again before I can attack again. 

try doing damage to a tank sitting on a lower or higher plane with isida vs the other melee turrets and you'll understand what I mean if you don't already 

[Dopamine 2,161]

On 1/23/2024 at 11:11 PM, master_howitzer said:

also yes dont let the manually aiming cursor go to the very top or bottom of the screen. keep the max aiming elevation fair. Its like 30 degrees or something right.

I don't understand how does this apply to the suggestion. 
The vertical aim limits are set separately for each turret and are a part of the game balance equation. Why should a manually aimed cursor have these constraints removed or lessened?
 

[Iquit 101]

@Dopamine huh? I said keep retrains especially for turrets with good range. melee turrets on the other hand...

I was hoping maybe to at get at least an isida vertical aim buff out of this since that is one of the few things the few game devs can do, is adjust values on turrets every month or two

this discussion is over anyway. apparently the head game dev has no plans to hire any new people to work on and implement good ideas like this from what I read.

and you cant say this isn't a good idea because all the other 3d tank games have this cursor mouse aim mechanic.

PLEASE let me know are there any other pvp tank games I could try that have the option for keyboard only controls

and it still wouldn't matter because there is nothing like aiming magnum and there is nothing like aiming with striker or gauss even though gauss lock on time is too short so its more kid friendly

[Maf 32,300]

On 1/24/2024 at 1:53 AM, master_howitzer said:

the game is automatically aiming vertically for you. Take that away and the game requires more effort. Instead of moving your mouse left and right only, now you are required to move it up and down at the same.

Look man, initially I was of the same opinion - that removing vertical auto-aim from mouse controls would make it harder to aim and therefore be a nerf. But then came along Opex-Rah and said the opposite. Of all of us here, he's probably the only one who studied dozens of similar games and their different approaches to game design, including a bunch of obscure demos from the depths of game dev forums, which no one ever heard of. So I don't know about you, but I'm gonna trust his judgement when he says that manual mouse aiming would make mouse players even stronger than they are now, compared to keyboard.

On 1/24/2024 at 1:53 AM, master_howitzer said:

manually pointing and clicking on the area where you want to shoot would completely bypass this everlasting problem, therefor yes your opinion is valid

Exactly. Not having to rely on vertical auto-aim to get the right vertical angle, allows you to aim exactly where you want your shot to go (using mouse crosshair) and lead your shot to make sure that it goes exactly where you want it. This is a huge advantage over the auto-aim system, and it's not possible to implement properly for keyboard controls, except if all turrets become like shaft — standing still while aiming.

On 1/24/2024 at 2:11 AM, master_howitzer said:

isida is just too annoying to use even though the low range doesn't bother me. Little timmy impact force just pushes me away either horizontally or even vertically lifting the front end my medium hull off of the ground forcing me to wait for it to come back down again before I can attack again. 

try doing damage to a tank sitting on a lower or higher plane with isida vs the other melee turrets and you'll understand what I mean if you don't already

This is also done for balance purposes. But if it bothers you so much, you can always equip the Broadband Emitters augment, which greatly increases Isida's attack angles.

[Iquit 101]

@Maf yeah but I was talking about aiming up and down with isida. Broadband emitters augment only works horizontally.  Isida deserves to hit anything its even remotely aiming at just like the other melee turrets as long as its with in range. and of course only one enemy at a time still unlike the other three melee turrets. right now its like isida have high pressure pump. 

also doesn't this augment still have the pointless range nerf? This is just another one of many times the game devs don't do anything right.

They change the name "alteration" to "augment" to give them the excuse to put more powerful (tedious to fight against) kid friendly buyers only equipment in the game, but all the old "alterations" never got turned into "augments" and get there cons removed or lessened in severity

isida support nanobots doesn't deserve their damage cut in half and broadband emitters doesn't deserve its range cut in half either.

my opinion is both of these augments should just disappear. Isida should just aim better like I said before and isida should be able to heal 400 hp a tick with boosted damage supply. critical heals get 400 instead of 2000. but the critical ticks will give the blue shield repair kits have and turn off all current status effects.

theres so much tedious trash in this game that kills you in a couple seconds either with the redundant status effects turning off your defenses or just raw unbalanced damage. so its time for isida to begin healing like it once did and turn off status effects like it once did with the cold and heat effects an eternity ago.