Let's Discuss Thunder!

[Nicola_M 1,563]

Oh dear.  Couldn't wait.

Mu'd to 4/20 already.

 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

 

Oh dear.  Couldn't wait.

Mu'd to 4/20 already.

 

 

That's the power of the Sledgehammer.  :rolleyes:

[Nicola_M 1,563]

The last few battles haven't been great - about half a dozen with just 2 stars or none at all.

But considerably fewer deaths than with Twins, as you don't have to be right up against the enemy with Thunder.

That's the power of the Sledgehammer.  :rolleyes:

No, I committed a cardinal sin and bought a kit from the shop with M3 instead of wasting time MUing the M2.

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

Any distance beyond the max damage range the Sledehammer wins over stock easily. 

Both will have same damage range but Sledge fires 30% faster.

who cares, it's still rubbish. better than stock thunder at far range but still sucks because thunder is supposed to be mid range and not far range.

 

at far range (beyone mid range) shaft, vulcan, smoky, striker are better than thunder sledgehammer or not. sledgehammer makes it better at far range but not OP cause it's still sucks both as mid range weapon (when compared to stock thunder and smoky) as well as a far range weapon (when compared to any other turret that can be used at far range)

[Truthteller 4,204]

who cares, it's still rubbish. better than stock thunder at far range but still sucks because thunder is supposed to be mid range and not far range.

 

at far range (beyone mid range) shaft, vulcan, smoky, striker are better than thunder sledgehammer or not. sledgehammer makes it better at far range but not OP cause it's still sucks both as mid range weapon (when compared to stock thunder and smoky) as well as a far range weapon (when compared to any other turret that can be used at far range)

You obviously haven't used sledgehammer alteration 

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

Speaking my part here: If you're a Legend Thunder user and you're not using Sledgehammer rounds, you're throwing the game; enough said. That is how better it is than Stock Thunder. (It's exaggerated but my point still stands)

if you have thunder module... but sometimes you just can't afford to use thunder module when enemy is full of turrets which need 2 modules to be protected from

[wolverine848 13,097]

if you have thunder module... but sometimes you just can't afford to use thunder module when enemy is full of turrets which need 2 modules to be protected from

What does that have to do with using Stock Thunder or Sledgehammer?

 

Regardless of modules you face, for the most part, Sledgehammer outperforms Stock Thunder by a lot.

 

Hence ppl say Sledgehammer is OP.

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

What does that have to do with using Stock Thunder or Sledgehammer?

 

Regardless of modules you face, for the most part, Sledgehammer outperforms Stock Thunder by a lot.

 

Hence ppl say Sledgehammer is OP.

because you need thunder module more for self damage when your range gets reduced. it's not about modules you face, it's about modules you use depending on turrets you face. read again.

 

as for the range part i already explained that at far range, sledgehammer is rubbish compared to smoky. at mid range it loses to normal thunder.

[wolverine848 13,097]

because you need thunder module more for self damage when your range gets reduced. it's not about modules you face, it's about modules you use depending on turrets you face. read again.

 

as for the range part i already explained that at far range, sledgehammer is rubbish compared to smoky. at mid range it loses to normal thunder.

Your choice to use Thunder module... or NOT. Which alt you use should not affect that.

 

At any range beyond max damage range Smoky & Thunder have similar DPS.  One fires faster but does less damage.  If cover available then the turret that does more damage per shot has the advantage - they hide during reload - negating the faster reload of enemy.

 

How do you figure beyond max damage range smoky has advantage over Sledgehammer?  Sledgehammer damage does not change versus stock - but - has 30% better reload than stock.  It's DPS increases.  Especially if Splash comes into effect.

 

Devs figured Thunder users would use Sledge up close like a shotgun.  They are using it opposite way - exploiting the 30% reload bonus.

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

Your choice to use Thunder module... or NOT. Which alt you use should not affect that.

i was saying that for it to be OP you'll have to use thunder module. if you don't then it's not op

 

 

---

 

at far range railgun has higher dph as well as dps... now tell me again what's the purpose of thunder sledgehammer at far range?

 

---

 

not really an exploit, more like a stupid way of using it. you can get better results with railgun in both dps and dph

 

 

 

you know... even magnum with gunpowder loader has 28% more dps than sledgehammer at far range... higher dph too... let's not forget bigger splash... oh and it doesn't even need to expose itself.

Edited March 19, 2019 by ZloyDanuJI

[wolverine848 13,097]

i was saying that for it to be OP you'll have to use thunder module. if you don't then it's not op

 

at far range railgun has higher dph as well as dps... now tell me again what's the purpose of thunder sledgehammer at far range?

 

not really an exploit, more like a stupid way of using it. you can get better results with railgun in both dps and dph

 

you know... even magnum with gunpowder loader has 28% more dps than sledgehammer at far range... higher dph too... let's not forget bigger splash... oh and it doesn't even need to expose itself.

Rail does not have splash. Rail and Thunder - even at long range - have different uses.

 

You say stupid and yet... it gets results. Stupid is using a splash-damage weapon up close where you will take damage yourself.  Even if you have a 50% module you are still taking 50% of the splash damage and can self-destruct.  Loss of life and loss of a kill.

 

Magnum may have larger splash area - but - has a much harder time getting direct hits.  3-4 m off target and your DPS drops a lot.

 

And stop using DPS... only relevant to turrets with continuous fire.  Short-rangers and Vulcan.

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

And stop using DPS... only relevant to turrets with continuous fire.  Short-rangers and Vulcan.

isn't that what lower reload is supposed to be for? to increase the dps? 

 

 

 

Magnum may have larger splash area - but - has a much harder time getting direct hits.  3-4 m off target and your DPS drops a lot.

you know, you can just set it to 0° and it becomes a thunder right? 

[wolverine848 13,097]

isn't that what lower reload is supposed to be for? to increase the dps? 

 

 

 

you know, you can just set it to 0° and it becomes a thunder right? 

No. 

Lower reload allows you to fire faster yes.  But trying to apply DPS to weapons with reload does not work.  What is DPS of stock shaft?

 

Set it to 0 and fire at the building in front of you?  Won't hit many targets that way...

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

I like to think that they catered those alterations for MM battles. Let's look at it like this:

 

Some players say that Stock Smoky is better than Autocannon Smoky. Well, Autocannon Smoky is better at 1 v 1 supply combat as it disrupts the repair kit far faster than any of Smoky's other alterations and its Stock Version. 

 

Let's look at Stock M4 Thunder. If you time your repair kit properly, you can receive about 3,250 HP from it before the Thunder shoots again. 

 

With Sledgehammer Thunder, if you time your repair kit properly you can receive about 2,500 HP from it before the Thunder shoots again. 

 

This makes Sledgehammer Thunder immediately better in 1 v 1 supply combat situations. 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's look at another aspect players overlook when comparing Stock Thunder to Sledgehammer Thunder. The maximum damage range is reduced but the minimum damage range STAYS THE SAME. So anywhere between >5 metres in front of you and <150 metres, you'll be doing within the minimum damage. I've compared this with Stock Thunder a good while ago somewhere.

 

While Stock Thunder can kill it "faster", Sledgehammer Thunder can survive the encounter potentially longer. Reason being its high impact force. There's a considerable difference between getting punched every 2.3 seconds and getting punched every 1.61 seconds. I've seen teammate and enemy light hulls struggle against Sledgehammer Thunders because they are getting impacted far faster than normal and it barely gives them time to realign their course onto the Thunder before they get hit off course again. 

 

Lastly, the icing on the cake is Thunder's weak damage. It's 50% which is a lot, especially when you're hitting people all the way across a map like Highways or Lost Temple. If they do the same damage after minimum damage range, then Sledgehammer will be victorious because of its 30% reload decrease. 

 

Being able to hit more often allows for more score being generated by assists. All you have to do is touch an enemy for 1 damage and you can get 5 score from an assist. With an increased firing rate, Sledgehammer has a better chance of stealing kills and getting assists. 

 

 

You can't say that it's OP if there are so many players using it over Stock Thunder. Look at Duplet before its nerf. NO ONE was using Slugger. NO ONE was using High-Capacity Drum. NO ONE was using Adaptive Reload. They were only using Duplet and they were topping the battles like crazy. Because of the way Stock Hammer competes against each hull, Duplet's mechanic will always be broken unless changed again. 

 

I've had so many battles where a random Sledgehammer Thunder kicks off with 5 kills in the first 30 seconds because of that firing rate; not to mention its splash damage which is great for kill stealing in DM battles. 

 

 

Long story short: Sledgehammer rounds is broken and needs to be fixed. 

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

Set it to 0 and fire at the building in front of you?  Won't hit many targets that way...

as if you gonna hit anything with sledgehammer if you just fire at the building in front of you

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

Long story short

impact reduction is proportional to weak damage reduction. so at mid range sledgehammer still deals lesser impact force. and because of this, you can potentially heal more from your repair kit because you'll knock off your enemy more.

 

and you based this on mm battles which lost temple isn't so...

 

better chance at gaining assists yes, but not stealing kills. for stealing kills you need higher dph and stock has higher dph at mid range

 

so let's see, impact reduction wasn't valid, and thus repair interruption. higher chance for assist but lower chance for stealing kills makes this alteration balanced.

 

 

You can't say that it's OP if there are so many players using it over Stock Thunder.

that's not what i see. yes, it is the most popular thunder alteration but there are definately more people using stock thunder.

 

Long story short: Sledgehammer rounds is broken and needs to be fixed. 

farting stop repeating the same thing. you said it once and i heard you, that's why i replied. you want to talk to me you can elaborate more on the same thing, you can re explain things i didn't understand, you can addin more points to support your view, but do not repeat your conclusion over andover again in every reply if you want us to continue; i already know that's what you think.

Edited March 19, 2019 by ZloyDanuJI

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

You know, you can just set it to 0° and it becomes a thunder right? 

Thunder has auto-aim; Magnum does not. You have to actually aim with Magnum using the degrees. At 0 degrees, you're not gonna be hitting anything that's not within self-damage range.

 

 

You need to increase the degrees to about 4-7 degrees for mid-range combat. Magnum has a projectile that requires to travel a distance before hitting the target. Thunder impacts immediately. It's even worse to try to hit something with 100% power and a relatively low degree angle from across the map. 

 

Magnum needs time to charge up to 100% to be able to reach maximum projectile speed. That's at least 2 seconds and at most 3 seconds of charging when a Thunder could shoot twice in that time. 

 

 

Magnum simply cannot become a Thunder. 

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

Thunder has auto-aim; Magnum does not. You have to actually aim with Magnum using the degrees. At 0 degrees, you're not gonna be hitting anything that's not within self-damage range.

really? 100% 0° works for me all the time.

 

Magnum needs time to charge up to 100% to be able to reach maximum projectile speed. That's at least 2 seconds and at most 3 seconds of charging when a Thunder could shoot twice in that time.

yes, with 2 seconds charge up + 3 seconds reload the interval between each shot is 5 seconds, and it's dps is still higher than sledgehammer at far range.

 

Magnum simply cannot become a Thunder. 

no no you're right, that would be such an insult to magnum.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

Impact reduction is proportional to weak damage reduction; so at mid range, sledgehammer still deals less impact force. And because of this, you can potentially heal more from your repair kit because you'll knock off your enemy more.

I'm talking about an enemy Sledgehammer Thunder disrupting your repair kit, not vice versa. Impact force has nothing to do with this since the factor here is reload speed. 

 

 

And you based this on mm battles which lost temple isn't so...

I used Lost Temple as an example because of its size to lay emphasis on my point. 

 

 

Better chance at gaining assists yes, but not stealing kills. For stealing kills, you need higher dph and stock has higher dph at mid range

 

so let's see, impact reduction wasn't valid, and thus repair interruption. higher chance for assist but lower chance for stealing kills makes this alteration balanced.

Too many times I've seen Sledgehammer Thunders steal kills from players. It's not like the damage is cut by 60-70% you know. Thunder itself is strong and needs constant (but not too much) protection against it to be balanced. Higher damage doesn't always mean a better chance of stealing kills. It all comes down to the situation, the amount of protection the targets have and the amount of HP they have left which, for the latter, you can't see. 

This alteration is in no way balanced. A faster firing rate can make up for the decrease in damage. Decreasing the intervals between your shots potentially increases your chances of kill-stealing. 

 

 

That's not what I see. Yes, it is the most popular thunder alteration but there are definitely more people using stock thunder. 

We must be getting completely different battles. On average, out of 5 Thunders in a Legend battle, 4 of them are Sledgehammer Thunders while one is a Stock user. What's the end result every time? The Sledgehammers outperform the Stock Thunders. 

 

Even in Non-Legend battles (From Colonel to Generalissimo), the number of Sledgehammer Thunders has been increasing recently. I don't know. Maybe it's because they see others using it, dominating their enemies and they want to do the same with their Thunder? In Dm battles, Brigadiers with M2 Thunder (Possibly 10/10) with this alteration often come in the top 3.   

 

Why do you think it is the most popular alteration, huh? Duplet was and still is the most popular Hammer alteration. What did/does that say about Duplet?

Uranium was and still is the most popular Striker alteration. What did/does that say about Uranium?  

Incendiary Band is the most popular alteration for Vulcan. What does that say about Incendiary Band?

Round Destabilisation was and still is one of the most popular Railgun alterations. What does that say about Round Destabilisation?

 

People flock towards what is the most powerful and helps them to dominate the battles. 

 

 

Farting stop repeating the same thing. You said it once and I heard you, that's why I replied. You want to talk to me, you can elaborate more on the same thing, you can re-explain things I didn't understand, you can add in more points to support your view, but do not repeat your conclusion over and over again in every reply if you want us to continue; I already know that's what you think.

I keep that there just to refresh my opposition's memory of my stance. Another thing is that I've been complaining about this alteration for a while but players kept telling me that nothing was wrong with it. To stop the Sledgehammer plague, I must inform everyone of its one-ups against Stock Thunder. Also, I didn't quote anyone. I just said my long posts and my long post usually have a short conclusion for the people who skim through. 

 

I can stop it in this debate just for you if you'd like.  :)

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

really? 100% 0° works for me all the time.

Oops, my bad. I forgot you could rock your hull forward or backwards to gain some more height. 

 

 

Yes, with 2 seconds charge up + 3 seconds reload the interval between each shot is 5 seconds, and it's dps is still higher than sledgehammer at far range.

Assuming you hit a direct hit...which is relatively hard to achieve. Sledgehammer allows you to just point, shoot and it's an instant hit. 

 

No no you're right, that would be such an insult to magnum.

Would it? 

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Sledgehammer may be broken. But it sure as Hell is nowhere as broken as smokys auto cannon alt.

[wolverine848 13,097]

as if you gonna hit anything with sledgehammer if you just fire at the building in front of you

Well you said benefit of Magnum was being able to hide behind a wall/building while shooting. 

You no longer get that benefit at 0-degrees because you must have LOS to target enemy. 

 

That's already standard for Thunder.  And Thunder can peek-a-boo since it can turn the turret.  Magnum can not.

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

Assuming you hit a direct hit...which is relatively hard to achieve. Sledgehammer allows you to just point, shoot and it's an instant hit. 

but you still get points for assist, and because the splash is bigger it's even better than sledgehammer. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ioo many times I've seen Sledgehammer Thunders steal kills from players. It's not like the damage is cut by 60-70% you know. Thunder itself is strong and needs constant (but not too much) protection against it to be balanced. Higher damage doesn't always mean a better chance of stealing kills. It all comes down to the situation, the amount of protection the targets have and the amount of HP they have left which, for the latter, you can't see. 

This alteration is in no way balanced. A faster firing rate can make up for the decrease in damage. Decreasing the intervals between your shots potentially increases your chances of kill-stealing. 

 

isn't kill stealing about waiting for the perfect time to deal the final blow? because it's only the final blow, reload doesn't matter, cause it's just 1 hit. 

 

however, the damage of that hit does matter, because you can't see your enemy's health sowith a higher damage from that shot you'll have a higher chance of that shot finishing him off? sledgehammer reduces it's damage at mid range. 

 

 

 

why do you think it is the most popular alteration, huh? Duplet was and still is the most popular Hammer alteration. What did/does that say about Duplet?

Uranium was and still is the most popular Striker alteration. What did/does that say about Uranium?  

Incendiary Band is the most popular alteration for Vulcan. What does that say about Incendiary Band?

Round Destabilisation was and still is one of the most popular Railgun alterations. What does that say about Round Destabilisation?

 

People flock towards what is the most powerful and helps them to dominate the battles. 

it could be just that the rest of the alterations for that turret are rubbish. 

 

it might be the best alteration for that turret, but that doesn't mean that it is op, it could simply be that the rest of it's alterations are useless. 

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

But you still get points for assist, and because the splash is bigger, it's even better than sledgehammer. 

Thunder can get score for an assist as well. What's your point in this example? 

 

Using splash damage radius alone to determine the effectiveness of a turret is not good enough. 

 

 

Isn't kill stealing about waiting for the perfect time to deal the final blow? Because it's only the final blow, reload doesn't matter, cause it's just 1 hit. 

However, the damage of that hit does matter, because you can't see your enemy's health so with a higher damage from that shot you'll have a higher chance of that shot finishing him off? Sledgehammer reduces its damage at mid range.

You can weaken the target with your shot while the other enemy is damaging them. This can also get you a kill steal. Reload matters because of what I'm saying below. 

 

I said how it doesn't always = to a kill. Many times, I would shoot my Magnum shell at them. It would do massive damage but the enemy ends up stealing the kill because you didn't do enough damage. Another thing is that Magnum has a damage range with 1,170 numbers in between them assuming you get a direct hit and not a splash hit. You can either get high damage, average damage or low damage.

You DON'T know the amount of HP your enemy has. For all you know, they could have 300 health remaining. For all you know, they could have 2,300 HP remaining. You aren't an all-seeing eye; if you turn a corner and see two players fighting, you can't immediately know that they're both on low health. You have to GUESS. This is where high damage can fail. If the enemy has high HP, then you take away a large portion of their HP which leaves them open to being killed by the other target. You won't reload fast enough to take the kill before the other enemy takes it. 

 

In theory, high damage is better but you have to look at all situations instead of just one. 

 

It seems as if you fell victim to the misconception of the alterations changes. Please know that the alteration only changes the maximum damage range. It DOES NOT change the minimum damage range. At mid-range, you are still doing above minimum damage (If you didn't understand: you are still doing within your damage range, just not on the higher end). Most MM maps allow Thunder to be within the minimum damage range. 

 

 

It could be just that the rest of the alterations for that turret are rubbish. 

It might be the best alteration for that turret, but that doesn't mean that it is op, it could simply be that the rest of its alterations are useless. 

Hmmm, then why are players using that instead of the Stock Version? Why do you need to play with an alteration? What is the point of playing with alterations, huh? The Stock counterparts are supposed to perform the same as its altered counterparts yet that isn't the case, especially with Sledgehammer Thunder vs Stock Thunder. 

 

What determines the greatness of an alteration, huh? What makes one alteration better than the others? 

[ZloyDanuJI 409]

Thunder can get score for an assist as well. What's your point in this example? 

 

Using splash damage radius alone to determine the effectiveness of a turret is not good enough.

you said that sh is better at getting assists because of it's reload, i was just saying that's not the only factor either

 

 

You can weaken the target with your shot while the other enemy is damaging them. This can also get you a kill steal. Reload matters because of what I'm saying below. 

 

I said how it doesn't always = to a kill. Many times, I would shoot my Magnum shell at them. It would do massive damage but the enemy ends up stealing the kill because you didn't do enough damage. Another thing is that Magnum has a damage range with 1,170 numbers in between them assuming you get a direct hit and not a splash hit. You can either get high damage, average damage or low damage.

You DON'T know the amount of HP your enemy has. For all you know, they could have 300 health remaining. For all you know, they could have 2,300 HP remaining. You aren't an all-seeing eye; if you turn a corner and see two players fighting, you can't immediately know that they're both on low health. You have to GUESS. This is where high damage can fail. If the enemy has high HP, then you take away a large portion of their HP which leaves them open to being killed by the other target. You won't reload fast enough to take the kill before the other enemy takes it. 

 

In theory, high damage is better but you have to look at all situations instead of just one.

so neither is better at kill stealing as it depends on the situation. agreed

 

so this means that you can't say that sh is better at kill stealing than stock because at mid range, stock does more damage.

 

 

It seems as if you fell victim to the misconception of the alterations changes. Please know that the alteration only changes the maximum damage range. It DOES NOT change the minimum damage range. At mid-range, you are still doing above minimum damage (If you didn't understand: you are still doing within your damage range, just not on the higher end). Most MM maps allow Thunder to be within the minimum damage range.

what misconception? i did the calculations myself. at mid range, stock thunder has higher dps as well as dph compared to sh. this means that stock has higher stats for both the factors that determines it's ability to kill steal at that range

 

Hmmm, then why are players using that instead of the Stock Version? Why do you need to play with an alteration? What is the point of playing with alterations, huh? The Stock counterparts are supposed to perform the same as its altered counterparts yet that isn't the case, especially with Sledgehammer Thunder vs Stock Thunder.

because you can maximise the use of the advantages as well as minimise the effect of the disadvantages by putting yourself in certain situations.

 

What determines the greatness of an alteration, huh? What makes one alteration better than the others? 

probably low disadvantage and high advantage. which isn't the case for sh. it might be better than the rest based on that but it's still not that good