Let's Discuss Thunder!

[XxStriker 519]

According to the wiki you deal the full damage up until the maximum damage range, and then it starts dropping linearly until it reaches the weak damage at the min damage range (For stock thunder m4 it's 100m max damage and 150m min damage, so it drops by 5% every 5m past 100m). That was the basis I used...

 

I do notice sledgehammer dealing a bit less than the usual stock values at average ranges, but it's still devastating.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

According to the wiki you deal the full damage up until the maximum damage range, and then it starts dropping linearly until it reaches the weak damage at the min damage range (For stock thunder m4 it's 100m max damage and 150m min damage, so it drops by 5% every 5m past 100m). That was the basis I used...

 

I do notice sledgehammer dealing a bit less than the usual stock values at average ranges, but it's still devastating.

THis is the google translation from the Russian Wiki:

 

 

This is what appears when you hover the mouse over "variation of damage":

 

[Michael828 816]

I'm posting the result of my calculations comparing the damage of normal m4 Thunder with that of an m4 sledgehammer Thunder.

 

This took me more than 2 hours to finish, and I am very sure it's correct. Assumptions are based on information given in the wiki.

 

These numbers are rounded up to no decimal places, if you want to see the raw numbers then I'll post them as well.

 

     

 

 

My conclusion is that sledgehammer should indeed be considered an upgrade, since its DPS beats that of normal Thunder in the majority of range possibilities.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

So from what I'm seeing on the chart, M4 Thunder deals 100% damage (between the damage range 740-1,020) within the first 100 metres and after that range, until 150 metres, it decreases linearly from 100%-50% of the damage between those two ranges.

 

I understand now. In that case, since the minimum damage range is (assumably) increased to 145 metres, then there is plenty of leeway to do slightly less damage than Stock Thunder but faster, resulting in an increase in DPM. 

[Michael828 816]

So from what I'm seeing on the chart, M4 Thunder deals 100% damage (between the damage range 740-1,020) within the first 100 metres and after that range, until 150 metres, it decreases linearly from 100%-50% of the damage between those two ranges.

 

I understand now. In that case, since the minimum damage range is (assumably) increased to 145 metres, then there is plenty of leeway to do slightly less damage than Stock Thunder but faster, resulting in an increase in DPM. 

 

Yes, exactly. The percentage difference column shows the boost in DPS given by the alteration, and that only between 80 and 115 meters can a normal Thunder outmatch its sledgehammer counterpart.

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Yes, exactly. The percentage difference column shows the boost in DPS given by the alteration, and that only between 80 and 115 meters can a normal Thunder outmatch its sledgehammer counterpart.

I think what needs to happen regarding sledgehammer is that the average splash damage (ASD) and weak splash damage (WSD) both needs to be reduced by 75%. Meaning that sledgehammers ASD and WSD will deal 75% less damage than that of stock thunder.

[Potdindy 866]

Can someone explain when thunder is useful? When I use it, it just feels slow but not powerful enough to make up for that and the splash isnt useful that often. Thoughts? Is it defense/offense, sniping?

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

Can someone explain when thunder is useful? When I use it, it just feels slow but not powerful enough to make up for that and the splash isnt useful that often. Thoughts? Is it defense/offense, sniping?

Part defensive part offensive.

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

What the heck is with the sledgehammer rounds? Isn't it supposed to deal 370-510 points of damage per shot beyond 5 metres at M4? And yet according to @TheCongoSpider, @wolverine848, @Michael828, and some others, it's dealing around 700-900 points of damage.

 

 

Man this thing must be broken.

Edited July 19, 2019 by DieselPlatinum

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

What the heck is with the sledgehammer rounds? Isn't it supposed to deal 370-510 points of damage per shot beyond 5 metres at M4? And yet according to @TheCongoSpider, @wolverine848, @Michael828, and some others, it's dealing around 700-900 points of damage.

 

 

Man this thing must be broken.

Thanks to Michael and XxStriker, I've been enlightened as to how exactly the maximum and minimum damage ranges influence damage. 

 

First off, maximum damage range. Your Thunder will deal random damage between the figures of your Thunder, which for M4, would be 740 - 1,020. From point-blank range to 100 metres, you will be dealing 100% of the damage (the random damage you receive within the damage boundaries). After 100 metres, you have passed that and any damage you do will be linearly decreased until it reaches the weak damage % at the minim damage range.

 

For better clarity, think of Gauss' splash damage distribution. It has a maximum splash damage range of 2 metres. In those 2 metres form the epicentre of the shot, any player there will receive the same damage (100%) as the target. Then we get to the average splash damage which is 90% and is at 12 metres. So if the player was 6 metres away from epicentre, they'd receive ~ 94% of the total damage. And after 12 metres, you the next checkpoint is the weak splash damage radius, which the % of  damage is 5%. So between 12 metres and 20 metres, the splash damage from the shot decreased linearly from 90% to 5%. So if the player was 15 metres away from the epicentre, they'd receive ~ 58% of the total damage. 

 

So let's discuss where Sledgehammer fits in this. Sledgehammer reduces the maximum damage range by 95%. So that means the maximum damage range is 5 m and the minimum damage range (which is untouched) stays at 150 metres. What has happened here is that the damage starts to decrease very early (5 metres) but the amount of leeway it has before it reaches weak damage (50%) is greatly increased. This is why Sledgehammer is the most consistent with its damage. if you shoot someone 40 metres away, the damage would be similar but if you shoot them with Stock Thunder, the damage can fluctuate from similar, to high then to low with each shot.

 

 

If the minimum damage range was reduced by 95% (which would prompt the maximum damage range to be reduced as well), then the damage would be 370-510. 

 

 

The high firing rate more than makes up for the earlier decrease in damage. 

 

 

 

TL;DR, Some examples:

 

Let's lock M4 Thunder's damage to 1,000. 

 

At 50 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. at 70 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. At 90 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. At 100 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage.

 

At 110 metres (you have now passed the maximum damage range and the damage now linearly decreases), you'd be doing 90% of your damage. 

 

At 130 metres, you'd be doing 70% of your damage. 

 

At 150 metres, you'd be doing 50% of your damage. Anything past 150 metres will be locked at 50% since 50% is the weak damage %.

 

 

I hope this helped. If not, maybe wolverine or Michael can explain it better. 

[mattb1853 50]

I think the Sub-caliber rounds for thunder is total B.S! I bought for 20k and i got no crap in return, I dont see the purpose of of the alt at all, it seems to have no effect when it comes to being a ""alteration, I wonder if the explanation does anything but to fake the actual purpose of the alt. I was expecting huge kinetic energy, but it seem like 20% more isnt cutting it like the 50% kinetic energy that railgun get's, so how come the failure to actually perform.   

[wolverine848 13,097]

What the heck is with the sledgehammer rounds? Isn't it supposed to deal 370-510 points of damage per shot beyond 5 metres at M4? And yet according to @TheCongoSpider, @wolverine848, @Michael828, and some others, it's dealing around 700-900 points of damage.

 

 

Man this thing must be broken.

Average damage for stock from 0-100 m is 880.  from 101 m to 150 m it drops linearly from 880 to minimum of 740.

You can work out say, increments of 10m beyond 100 what average damage will be.

 

Sledge then ... from 0-5m is avg of 880.  Minimum dmg distance not changed so.. from 6m to 150m it drops linearly from 880 to min of 740.

Since the max-min distance range is HUGE, the damage of Sledge Thunder only drops a little for every 10m.

The sledge can be quite far away and still do > 740 damage.

 

The minimum damage of Thunder (740) makes Sledgehammer an OP alteration, since it fires 25% faster.

 

 

 

Thanks to Michael and XxStriker, I've been enlightened as to how exactly the maximum and minimum damage ranges influence damage. 

 

First off, maximum damage range. Your Thunder will deal random damage between the figures of your Thunder, which for M4, would be 740 - 1,020. From point-blank range to 100 metres, you will be dealing 100% of the damage (the random damage you receive within the damage boundaries). After 100 metres, you have passed that and any damage you do will be linearly decreased until it reaches the weak damage % at the minim damage range.

 

For better clarity, think of Gauss' splash damage distribution. It has a maximum splash damage range of 2 metres. In those 2 metres form the epicentre of the shot, any player there will receive the same damage (100%) as the target. Then we get to the average splash damage which is 90% and is at 12 metres. So if the player was 6 metres away from epicentre, they'd receive ~ 94% of the total damage. And after 12 metres, you the next checkpoint is the weak splash damage radius, which the % of  damage is 5%. So between 12 metres and 20 metres, the splash damage from the shot decreased linearly from 90% to 5%. So if the player was 15 metres away from the epicentre, they'd receive ~ 58% of the total damage. 

 

So let's discuss where Sledgehammer fits in this. Sledgehammer reduces the maximum damage range by 95%. So that means the maximum damage range is 5 m and the minimum damage range (which is untouched) stays at 150 metres. What has happened here is that the damage starts to decrease very early (5 metres) but the amount of leeway it has before it reaches weak damage (50%) is greatly increased. This is why Sledgehammer is the most consistent with its damage. if you shoot someone 40 metres away, the damage would be similar but if you shoot them with Stock Thunder, the damage can fluctuate from similar, to high then to low with each shot.

 

 

If the minimum damage range was reduced by 95% (which would prompt the maximum damage range to be reduced as well), then the damage would be 370-510. 

 

 

The high firing rate more than makes up for the earlier decrease in damage. 

 

 

 

TL;DR, Some examples:

 

Let's lock M4 Thunder's damage to 1,000. 

 

At 50 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. at 70 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. At 90 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. At 100 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage.

 

At 110 metres (you have now passed the maximum damage range and the damage now linearly decreases), you'd be doing 90% of your damage. 

 

At 130 metres, you'd be doing 70% of your damage. 

 

At 150 metres, you'd be doing 50% of your damage. Anything past 150 metres will be locked at 50% since 50% is the weak damage %.

 

 

 

 

I hope this helped. If not, maybe wolverine or Michael can explain it better. 

[DieselPlatinum 5,121]

 

Thanks to Michael and XxStriker, I've been enlightened as to how exactly the maximum and minimum damage ranges influence damage. 

 

First off, maximum damage range. Your Thunder will deal random damage between the figures of your Thunder, which for M4, would be 740 - 1,020. From point-blank range to 100 metres, you will be dealing 100% of the damage (the random damage you receive within the damage boundaries). After 100 metres, you have passed that and any damage you do will be linearly decreased until it reaches the weak damage % at the minim damage range.

 

For better clarity, think of Gauss' splash damage distribution. It has a maximum splash damage range of 2 metres. In those 2 metres form the epicentre of the shot, any player there will receive the same damage (100%) as the target. Then we get to the average splash damage which is 90% and is at 12 metres. So if the player was 6 metres away from epicentre, they'd receive ~ 94% of the total damage. And after 12 metres, you the next checkpoint is the weak splash damage radius, which the % of  damage is 5%. So between 12 metres and 20 metres, the splash damage from the shot decreased linearly from 90% to 5%. So if the player was 15 metres away from the epicentre, they'd receive ~ 58% of the total damage. 

 

So let's discuss where Sledgehammer fits in this. Sledgehammer reduces the maximum damage range by 95%. So that means the maximum damage range is 5 m and the minimum damage range (which is untouched) stays at 150 metres. What has happened here is that the damage starts to decrease very early (5 metres) but the amount of leeway it has before it reaches weak damage (50%) is greatly increased. This is why Sledgehammer is the most consistent with its damage. if you shoot someone 40 metres away, the damage would be similar but if you shoot them with Stock Thunder, the damage can fluctuate from similar, to high then to low with each shot.

 

 

If the minimum damage range was reduced by 95% (which would prompt the maximum damage range to be reduced as well), then the damage would be 370-510. 

 

 

The high firing rate more than makes up for the earlier decrease in damage. 

 

 

 

TL;DR, Some examples:

 

Let's lock M4 Thunder's damage to 1,000. 

 

At 50 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. at 70 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. At 90 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage. At 100 metres, you'd be doing 1,000 damage.

 

At 110 metres (you have now passed the maximum damage range and the damage now linearly decreases), you'd be doing 90% of your damage. 

 

At 130 metres, you'd be doing 70% of your damage. 

 

At 150 metres, you'd be doing 50% of your damage. Anything past 150 metres will be locked at 50% since 50% is the weak damage %.

 

 

I hope this helped. If not, maybe wolverine or Michael can explain it better.

 

  

Average damage for stock from 0-100 m is 880.  from 101 m to 150 m it drops linearly from 880 to minimum of 740.

You can work out say, increments of 10m beyond 100 what average damage will be.

 

Sledge then ... from 0-5m is avg of 880.  Minimum dmg distance not changed so.. from 6m to 150m it drops linearly from 880 to min of 740.

Since the max-min distance range is HUGE, the damage of Sledge Thunder only drops a little for every 10m.

The sledge can be quite far away and still do > 740 damage.

 

The minimum damage of Thunder (740) makes Sledgehammer an OP alteration, since it fires 25% faster.

 

 

I totally forgot about the minimum damage range. :O

 

And apparently so did the devs. <_<

[XxStriker 519]

Average damage for stock from 0-100 m is 880.  from 101 m to 150 m it drops linearly from 880 to minimum of 740.

You can work out say, increments of 10m beyond 100 what average damage will be.

 

Sledge then ... from 0-5m is avg of 880.  Minimum dmg distance not changed so.. from 6m to 150m it drops linearly from 880 to min of 740.

Since the max-min distance range is HUGE, the damage of Sledge Thunder only drops a little for every 10m.

The sledge can be quite far away and still do > 740 damage.

 

The minimum damage of Thunder (740) makes Sledgehammer an OP alteration, since it fires 25% faster.

This is a little incorrect, the low damage once you get past 150 meters is 50% of the listed damage, so it can be as low as 370. It can deal 740 even at point blank range if you're unlucky.

[wolverine848 13,097]

This is a little incorrect, the low damage once you get past 150 meters is 50% of the listed damage, so it can be as low as 370. It can deal 740 even at point blank range if you're unlucky.

My calcs never went beyond the min damage range as that is likely where diesel was encountering issues.

 

Sure Thunder can possibly do 740 dmg up close.  Same odds as doing 1020 damage.  Which is why I went for the average of 840.

[XxStriker 519]

My calcs never went beyond the min damage range as that is likely where diesel was encountering issues.

 

Sure Thunder can possibly do 740 dmg up close.  Same odds as doing 1020 damage.  Which is why I went for the average of 840.

You said the average damage drops to 740, when in fact, it drops to 440 past 150 meters. The highest you can deal at over 150m is a mere 510 damage. The ranges go from 740-1020 inside the maximum damage range (which is point blank for sledgehammers) to 370-510 once you are past 150 meters.

 

Sledge then ... from 0-5m is avg of 880.  Minimum dmg distance not changed so.. from 6m to 150m it drops linearly from 880 to min of 740.

Since the max-min distance range is HUGE, the damage of Sledge Thunder only drops a little for every 10m.

The sledge can be quite far away and still do > 740 damage.

 

The minimum damage of Thunder (740) makes Sledgehammer an OP alteration, since it fires 25% faster.

 

So no, it cannot do 740 damage from far away.

[wolverine848 13,097]

You said the average damage drops to 740, when in fact, it drops to 440 past 150 meters. The highest you can deal at over 150m is a mere 510 damage. The ranges go from 740-1020 inside the maximum damage range (which is point blank for sledgehammers) to 370-510 once you are past 150 meters.

 

 

So no, it cannot do 740 damage from far away.

You are using semantics... over  ... what?   Not once did I mention anything beyond 150m.  And I consider 150m to be "far away".

 

But whatever... <_<

[XxStriker 519]

Average damage for stock from 0-100 m is 880.  from 101 m to 150 m it drops linearly from 880 to minimum of 740. 440.

You can work out say, increments of 10m beyond 100 what average damage will be.

 

Sledge then ... from 0-5m is avg of 880.  Minimum dmg distance not changed so.. from 6m to 150m it drops linearly from 880 to min of 740. Not 740, 440.

Since the max-min distance range is HUGE, the damage of Sledge Thunder only drops a little for every 10m.

The sledge can be quite far away and still do > 740 damage.

 

The minimum damage of Thunder (740) That's irrelevant to the alteration's power, it's the min damage range (and not the actual min damage) that allows it to lose damage very steadily. makes Sledgehammer an OP alteration, since it fires 25% faster.

At 150m, or beyond 150m, is the same thing. Let's not spread misinformation, please.

 

 And I consider 150m to be "far away".

"The sledge can be quite far away and still do > 740 damage." then no. It can do 500, but never 740.

[wolverine848 13,097]

At 150m, or beyond 150m, is the same thing. Let's not spread misinformation, please.

 

"The sledge can be quite far away and still do > 740 damage." then no. It can do 500, but never 740.

What?  You a barber in your spare time? Cuz you seem to like splitting hairs.

 

And you can stop beating that horse, as it's dead.   Really, really dead.  :blink:

 

 

But I may be wrong in one aspect... I was translating the 740 out to the extent of minimum damage range.

The wording might lead one to believe that -  but mechanics might not work quite that way - as you point out.

 

I'll give you the 500, but for the record - I consider up to 149m (that better?) "far away" even if you do not.

Edited July 19, 2019 by wolverine848

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

What?  You a barber in your spare time? Cuz you seem to like splitting hairs.

 

And you can stop beating that horse, as it's dead.   Really, really dead.  :blink:

 

 

But I may be wrong in one aspect... I was translating the 740 out to the extent of minimum damage range.

The wording might lead one to believe that -  but mechanics might not work quite that way - as you point out.

 

I'll give you the 500, but for the record - I consider up to 149m (that better?) "far away" even if you do not.

The minimum damage range is 150 metres. The weak damage % is 50% and it reaches 50% when shooting someone at a range of 150 metres or farther. 

 

So at 150 metres and farther, you would be dealing exactly 50% of the total damage, which for M4 Thunder's case, you'd be dealing 440 damage on average. 

 

 

For more clarity, let's use smaller, more compact numbers. Say, M4 Ricochet. 

 

M4 Ricochet has a maximum damage range of 60 metres and a minimum damage range (in this case, the furthest distance the plasma ball can travel) of 70. At 0-60 metres, it will be dealing full damage, that is, damage between 300-400 with the average being 350. 

 

After 60 metres, it starts to drop linearly until 70 metres where it will deal 25% damage (the weak damage % for Ricochet). 

 

 

 

Now let's look at Minus-Field Stabilisation, which basically works just like Sledgehammer Rounds does for Thunder. It increases the minimum damage range (which for Ricochet is the furthest distance the plasma ball can travel) by 100%, which caps it at 140 metres. So from 60-140 metres, the damage drops linearly from 100% of damage to 25% of damage, depending on the distance that the target is between this range. 

[wolverine848 13,097]

 

 

The minimum damage range is 150 metres. The weak damage % is 50% and it reaches 50% when shooting someone at a range of 150 metres or farther. 

 

So at 150 metres and farther, you would be dealing exactly 50% of the total damage, which for M4 Thunder's case, you'd be dealing 440 damage on average. 

 

 

For more clarity, let's use smaller, more compact numbers. Say, M4 Ricochet. 

 

M4 Ricochet has a maximum damage range of 60 metres and a minimum damage range (in this case, the furthest distance the plasma ball can travel) of 70. At 0-60 metres, it will be dealing full damage, that is, damage between 300-400 with the average being 350. 

 

After 60 metres, it starts to drop linearly until 70 metres where it will deal 25% damage (the weak damage % for Ricochet). 

 

 

 

 

Now let's look at Minus-Field Stabilisation, which basically works just like Sledgehammer Rounds does for Thunder. It increases the minimum damage range (which for Ricochet is the furthest distance the plasma ball can travel) by 100%, which caps it at 140 metres. So from 60-140 metres, the damage drops linearly from 100% of damage to 25% of damage, depending on the distance that the target is between this range. 

I thought Sledgehammer just raises the RoF.  The "nerf" is reducing the max damage range.

The byproduct is the minimum dmg range is wider, but not extended, like MFS does.

Sledge does not give Thunder longer range, but MFS does for Ricco.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

I thought Sledgehammer just raises the RoF.  The "nerf" is reducing the max damage range.

The nerf is reducing the maximum damage range. Because of the large decrease in the maximum damage range, the gap between the minimum damage range and the maximum damage range is now extended from 50 metres to 145 metres for an M4 Sledgehammer Thunder. 

 

The byproduct is the minimum dmg range is wider, but not extended, like MFS does.

For Sledgehammer, it is technically extended but not in a positive way. It's only extended because the maximum damage range has been made shorter. So it's kind of like it extended inward. 

 

Sledge does not give Thunder longer range, but MFS does for Ricco.

Which is why I said:

 

M4 Ricochet has a maximum damage range of 60 metres and a minimum damage range (in this case, the furthest distance the plasma ball can travel) of 70. At 0-60 metres, it will be dealing full damage, that is, damage between 300-400 with the average being 350. 

 

After 60 metres, it starts to drop linearly until 70 metres where it will deal 25% damage (the weak damage % for Ricochet). 

 

Now let's look at Minus-Field Stabilisation, which basically works just like Sledgehammer Rounds does for Thunder. It increases the minimum damage range (which for Ricochet is the furthest distance the plasma ball can travel) by 100%, which caps it at 140 metres. So from 60-140 metres, the damage drops linearly from 100% of damage to 25% of damage, depending on the distance that the target is between this range. 

I clearly stated that the minimum damage range for Ricochet acts differently. 

 

The part of my post you highlighted to talk about can be overgeneralised, which may have been what happened here.

[Michael828 816]

Something is wrong with Thunder's SCCM alteration, I just found out that it does not affect its performance in any way, while Sledgehammer significantly boosts DPS in most ranged encounters, based on our conclusions.

 

 

You can see there's no difference between using a stock Thunder and a SCCM Thunder, both have an identical damage output.

 

I'm not saying this should be "better" than a stock Thunder, since that's not what alterations are for, but I can't find a reason for using it. Sledgehammer clearly outclasses SCCM, and both alts are supposedly meant for the same thing, reduced reload time in compensation for less damage per shot.

 

Perhaps it could have a higher splash damage radius with a slightly lowered DPS, I don't know, any change is adequate as long as it gives some purpose to this alteration.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

Something is wrong with Thunder's SCCM alteration, I just found out that it does not affect its performance in any way, while Sledgehammer significantly boosts DPS in most ranged encounters, based on our conclusions.

Nothing is wrong. I'd say it's that way for economic purposes (buying OP alts etc). 

 

I had done calculations in my head many months ago and deduced that SCCM didn't really give it a boost like Sledgehammer. It has its upsides but not like Sledgehammer, especially when it had a 30% decrease in reload time. 

 

You can see there's no difference between using a stock Thunder and a SCCM Thunder, both have an identical damage output.

 

I'm not saying this should be "better" than a stock Thunder, since that's not what alterations are for, but I can't find a reason for using it. Sledgehammer clearly outclasses SCCM, and both alts are supposedly meant for the same thing, reduced reload time in compensation for less damage per shot.

 

Perhaps it could have a higher splash damage radius with a slightly lowered DPS, I don't know, any change is adequate as long as it gives some purpose to this alteration.

I don't see why 2 alterations have to have a reload decrease when one of them is really the other one but more expensive. It's like SCCM is an alternative to Thunder, and Sledgehammer is an upgrade to that alternative. 

[XxStriker 519]

Nothing is wrong. I'd say it's that way for economic purposes (buying OP alts etc). 

 

I had done calculations in my head many months ago and deduced that SCCM didn't really give it a boost like Sledgehammer. It has its upsides but not like Sledgehammer, especially when it had a 30% decrease in reload time. 

I don't see why 2 alterations have to have a reload decrease when one of them is really the other one but more expensive. It's like SCCM is an alternative to Thunder, and Sledgehammer is an upgrade to that alternative. 

Before I bought sledgehammer, I had SCCM back from when I last used to play... Result is I prefered to play with stock because it 2 shots unprotected mediums unlike the alteration. It may even be a downgrade from a gameplay side. You stay longer in the open for no apparent upside aside the chance to kill an unprotected (And that's not really often) light hull in 2 shots a little faster.

Edited July 22, 2019 by XxStriker