Let's Discuss Shaft!

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Play what is fun theo1900 and so what about what wiki says you are supposed to do. That advice is for brand-new gamers to avoid obvious pitfalls. After you learn the game you know the pros and cons and make your own choice.  I play Vulcan / Wasp and that is also something you are not supposed to do. And there are a lot of good reasons not to use that combo! :)  But all that is important is it if fun for me to use.  And it is far from toothless.  I am not a burden to team mates, heh.

[Moisthero 16]

There are a subset of shaft players with very high k/d ratios. Itis possible for a shft user to find a very safe sniping spot and rackup the kills.  It simply happens. It is fact.

 

However these players do so because their goal is a high k/d ratio.  In TDM that is how points are scored. But in CTF or CP having such a Shaft on your team is not always a boon.  They have tunnel vision and by definition never help capture a CP or help battle into the flag.  Doing so would lead to the Shaft tank to blow up.  

 

When your goal is a high k/d ratio, then you must avoid every single destruction of your tank possible.

 

Therefore in the bottom line, these players are not as helpful to team play as thy could (or should?) be.  One on a team might be OK. But some games you will see half the team siting in one spot looking through their scope. 

 

Which is one of the many signals to leave and find a fun game instead. I'll not be their huckleberries.

I deeply disagree. Shafts can provide cover in CTF games, in CP games they can make sure the points continue to be in the teams' color.

[GeekSHizzle 522]

mamoth   is the best hull which it goes best with shaft but  anyway  viking is not as bad : ;) 

[theo1900 0]

Dear LittleWillie thanks for sharing my opinion, but my main point was the game balance. Normally, the designers count statistically how effective every weapon is in order to keep them all equal at the same upgrade level. This isn't an easy job and they can't be always fair. I am very concern to shaft haters though some of us are kidding with them. From a point and then, the "shaft hate" became a common sense and maybe affected designers decisions.

When I bought shaft I thought that (as with EVERY weapon) I should make a compromise. I get long range powerful shot and I pay flexibility, fire rate, visibility and all the others. As a result I should develop my own tactic according these cons and pros. Nowadays shaft has lost the pros and kept the cons. In detail:

1)Long range. Any thunder or smoky can kill me from long distances in maps like skylark or bridges (I mean from the other side of the map). Twins reduced my life very fast (as it was close to me) from the bridge in skylark (I was on the other bridge). So they are weapons with the same effective range, but higher fire rate (disadvantage for shaft). Please don't tell me numbers showing unlimited range for shaft while limited for the others. Only highways map is really long. The rest maps can be covered by the effective range of a thunder or smoky, so no real benefit for shaft there.

2)Power. I lost almost 80% of my health by ONE thunder shot (notice: I was playing with hunter, not wasp). My fully loaded shaft shot didn't have more impact at the enemy hunter. You may say thunder was drugged. Well yes, and this forced me to drug too. The result was that we could both one-shot-kill each other but thunder had the advantage of less reload time. So, What is the difference between a drugged thunder and a drugged shaft? With shaft you have to snipe to make a one shot kill while thunder does the same thing with a simple hit of space bar (disadvantage for shaft). Don't tell me that the shaft shot caused more damage. In the battle, once you 've made a full kill, any additional damage doesn't matter and I don't care if my weapon's additional (therefore useless) damage is greater.

3)What about double kills? Shaft is the ONLY weapon unable to make double kills. In a battle today, I was behind a mate fighting a railgun. Having predicted the situation, I was ready (in sniping mode) earlier enough before the other two (mate and enemy) although I was just stopped (tell me again about unskilled shafts to make me laugh) but my shot didn't pass through my mate. The next moment the railgun replied and killed both of us as we were in the same line. Another time, I have also been killed shot by an enemy railgun standing behind the enemy I was fighting. Somebody should ask the designers: Is this fair play? Double kill in the same shot line was available in the begining of the game, for both railgun and shaft. It removed from shaft and remained for railgun. I have read no explanation so far.

4)Very poor recoil. If a hunter is fallen in side, a shaft shot cannot bring it in normal position. ALL other shooting weapons (rail, smoky, rico) can. Also thunder can but with self-injuring in this case. Once more, I remember that shaft recoil was not always so weak. It became so, after one of all these rebalances against shaft. Do you remember the "rebalances" to make the game "more fair" after so many posts about how OP shaft was, followed by "pathetic hate" posts against shaft?

I hope not to start a new post about heavy or light hulls. I had no more luck playing with my titan and if designers wanted me to be a heavy hull sitting duck, then why should they give me a laserline? By the way, laserline is perchaps the only thing for which I don't complain. For I believe that laserline enforces shafts to be mobile with more arcades and quick shots and this was good thing for the whole game.

You see, all the opinions of higher rank players with fully upgraded shafts and plenty of drugs, playing almost always in DM mode maps and writing posts with titles: "shaft sucks" are not applicable for me and my rank. I fully respect the elder and experienced shafts but we are not the same, unfortunately.

 

 

I deeply disagree. Shafts can provide cover in CTF games, in CP games they can make sure the points continue to be in the teams' color.

I fully agree with you but LittleWillie's point was that you can't have many kills by the edge of the map. Shaft has to risk close to attacking or defending team mates.

 

[CKopocTb_3To_CTpacTb 14]

  I guess you bought assault emitters or you have upgraded your weapon.

Yes, I use assault emitters. Also my shaft m2 is upgraded to m3. The game could be better, if Ihadn`t been so lagged.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

I deeply disagree. Shafts can provide cover in CTF games, in CP games they can make sure the points continue to be in the teams' color.

You missed the point I was making. Of COURSE Shaft players can be superb teammates. I am not talking about those players. I am taking about players who enter every game wanting to boost their K/D ratio to extreme ranges. You cannot have two #1 priorities at once. Either yo are willing to play for the team or you are willing to play for yourself.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

To theo1900

 

1) You obviously do not play smoky. I do about 44 points at long range. As a Smoky user my desired range is about 1 meter. This is nonsense to say Shaft does not have a long range advantage.  When I was  noob I used to duel shafts at long range. then I learned how the game works.

 

2)  Your shaft on a hornet is at a disadvantage to a thunder on a hornet.  They key here is: on a hornet. That is the tradeoff you chose when you took hornet.

 

3)  " Shaft is the ONLY weapon unable to make double kills"  Except Smoky, Isida, Rico, Twins, and Vulcan.  So six of the 13 cannot make double kills.  Yes, Shaft used to be able to make double kills., It was a good change to stop that.\

 

4)  Once again you must not play Smoky. I can save myself about 50% of the time with viking ... if i am given about 10-20 seconds to try w/o being zapped. On a titan, it is never. Isida cannot save itself, nor fire, freeze, vulcan, not sure about twins and magnum. I know Striker will not right a titan but will a hornet.  So once again this is a factor common to many turrets.

 

Side of the map) I do not know what you read but I never wrote to say a shaft on the side of the map can't have a olt of kills. Obviously this is not true.

Edited November 18, 2017 by LittleWillie

[theo1900 0]

Dear LittleWillie

1)I didn't say that smoky doesn't fight BETTER from close distance. I said I' ve been killed in two shots by smoky from long. So, I haven't the long range advantage. In addition, if I have the surprise advantage then yes I am the winner. Otherwise I am dead. If smoky plays well, it will start shooting me to destroy my sniping and reducing my health at the same time. I should retreat or die.
2)I spoke about hunter not hornet. And since it happened to me with hunters, one can say the same for hunter. So, my disadvantage of a shaft on a hunter to a thunder on a hunter is the hunter. OK I agree.
3)I may be blind or crazy because I 've seen sometimes any of the weapons you mentioned to make sequential kills. Of course the meaning of "double" makes sense for weapons with low fire rate as thunder, rail or shaft. A smoky can kill one with one shot and the other with the next if the enemies have low health and this is not "literally" a double kill. The same for all high fire rate weapons. Twins or vulcan with continuous fire do not need double kills. They make it sequentially killing one by another. However, thunder and rail have the double kill ability. I may agree that it 'll be a good change to stop it in general. Why it was a good change to stop it ONLY for shaft?
4)I spoke about SHOOTING weapons so, not mentioned to isida, firebird or freeze. Recoil is one of the main advantages of smoky and I know it because I play with smoky. I have made a rail off target with a smoky shot but with shaft this is very rare. Anyway, I say that among smoky, thunder, rail, rico and shaft, the latter has the weakest recoil. Am I wrong? (OK I may be wrong with the twins).

About what you said for the edges of the map, you are right. I saw this point to a post of I_already_won not yours but I didn't remember it. I apologise. In any case I agree with the point that from the edge of the map a shaft has not many chances to score and if you didn't say so, sorry I disagree.

Dear ThirdOnion

The power of shaft shot is the favorite discussion of all shaft haters (I don't say you are one of them) while they forget all disadvantages paid for this power. However I didn't say that. I said that a DRUGGED thunder (or rail) has already the ability to kill medium hulls and below too. So, thay have the advantage comparing to a shaft. Even if shaft also drugs it gets only the half of sniping time for the same result. This is of course important but the time needed doesn't compare with the simple hit of the space bar. By the way, at my rank facing hornets M2, I can't even do this. I told you once more, shaft M2 unlocks later. In a game among M1 hulls and weapons and without drugs, I would be more than satisfied from my shaft.

About thunder - shaft duel, I would agree but I apologise that I am confused. What's the point of laserline? You say: don't fight face to face because you are a sniper but on the other hand I can't stay in a sniper mode because of the laserline. So, I should be sniper but I shouldn't be. No need to tell me ways to hide the laserline. I know it but according to this point, shaft is a weapon for very limited use just for area denial.

Thank you both for making this discussion. Certainly the combo shaft - wasp is extremely hard to play it effectively. I wouldn't say I play it well.

Edited November 19, 2017 by theo1900

[Amagi 1,728]

I would give my own input but, I guess my opinions "aren't applicable in your ranks".

[theo1900 0]

I would give my own input but, I guess my opinions "aren't applicable in your ranks".

I hope you are not offended. It wasn't my intention. I said what I believe about the power difference between you and me. Of course, I want to read your opinion. I finished what I wanted to say. Now its my turn to hold Michael Jackson's pop corn.

[theo1900 0]

4)  Once again you must not play Smoky. I can save myself about 50% of the time with viking ... if i am given about 10-20 seconds to try w/o being zapped. On a titan, it is never. Isida cannot save itself, nor fire, freeze, vulcan, not sure about twins and magnum. I know Striker will not right a titan but will a hornet.  So once again this is a factor common to many turrets.

I 've never found myself in this position with hunter - smoky combo. I did it on purpose and I noticed that you are right. This doesn't change the fact that shaft has weaker recoil but to be accurate and honest with you, what you said is correct.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Shaft cam make sequential kills in arcade mode just like any other turret such as Smoky.  That is for killing already weak tanks. But Shaft can sequentially kill fully healthy tanks in sniping mode. Smoky sure as hell cannot.  So there's that.

 

So far as I know only rail and shaft had penetration. ONLY one of the lost it.because ONLY one of them has the highest single damaging hit in the game. ONLY Shaft lost penetration because ONLY shaft combined penetration with the highest single attack in the game It was that combinatoin that was too powerful.

 

There is no valid reason to exclude Isida, fire, freeze etc from being unable to right themselves unless one is artificially bolstering a weak argument.

 

I have a shaft and smoky on the same account.  It is SO EASY TO KILL with Shaft compared to Smoky.  As a long time Smoky user I can land arcade shots reliably. I just do not like sitting back and sniping all the time. I prefer to get close to mix it up at closer range. For that smoky with added impact is better.

 

I am not one calling for a shaft nerf. But it it ludicrous to say it is a weak weapon. It has massive strengths and with that come a few weaknesses. That is how it has to be or else everyone would play Shaft.

Edited November 19, 2017 by LittleWillie

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

Shaft cam make sequential kills in arcade mode just like any other turret such as Smoky. That is for killing already weak tanks. But Shaft can sequentially kill fully healthy tanks in sniping mode. Smoky sure as hell cannot. So there's that.

 

So far as I know only rail and shaft had penetration. ONLY one of the lost it.because ONLY one of them has the highest single damaging hit in the game. ONLY Shaft lost penetration because ONLY shaft combined penetration with the highest single attack in the game It was that combinatoin that was too powerful.

 

There is no valid reason to exclude Isida, fire, freeze etc from being unable to right themselves unless one is artificially bolstering a weak argument.

 

I have a shaft and smoky on the same account. It is SO EASY TO KILL with Shaft compared to Smoky. As a long time Smoky user I can land arcade shots reliably. I just do not like sitting back and sniping all the time. I prefer to get close to mix it up at closer range. For that smoky with added impact is better.

 

I am not one calling for a shaft nerf. But it it ludicrous to say it is a weak weapon. It has massive strengths and with that come a few weaknesses. That is how it has to be or else everyone would play Shaft.

freeze abd fire have penetration too. 100% starting from m0

[Aries_Primal 0]

Eh... My oppinion won't be good. I use Shaft since the beginning and I used to love it, it is for far and middle fight, but they completely destroyed it. Made it slow, weak and cut the range so for example I have to go to the beach at Rio to shoot someone at the top of the roof, since the tank up there can reach me. On top of it they bringed that snacktoys Hammer, Vulcan, Magnum and Strike, what's the point of all this for players who upgrade their tanks since the beginning? :angry:

[LittleWillie 3,199]

freeze abd fire have penetration too. 100% starting from m0

No they don't. They used to but that was removed some time ago. You can hide behind a teammate and be screened from the fire cone.  That usually does not happen because if just a corner is exposed you will take damage. But if you are 100% screened you will not take damage.

 

But you are right in a sense. There used ot be 4 turrets with penetration now there is only one. So Shaft was not the ONLY turret to lose that effect.

Edited November 20, 2017 by LittleWillie

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

freeze abd fire have penetration too. 100% starting from m0

Recent update took that away, but you have to be completely behind cover or another tank for it to be noticeable.

Shaft cam make sequential kills in arcade mode just like any other turret such as Smoky.  That is for killing already weak tanks. But Shaft can sequentially kill fully healthy tanks in sniping mode. Smoky sure as hell cannot.  So there's that.

So far as I know only rail and shaft had penetration. ONLY one of the lost it.because ONLY one of them has the highest single damaging hit in the game. ONLY Shaft lost penetration because ONLY shaft combined penetration with the highest single attack in the game It was that combinatoin that was too powerful.

There is no valid reason to exclude Isida, fire, freeze etc from being unable to right themselves unless one is artificially bolstering a weak argument.

I have a shaft and smoky on the same account.  It is SO EASY TO KILL with Shaft compared to Smoky.  As a long time Smoky user I can land arcade shots reliably. I just do not like sitting back and sniping all the time. I prefer to get close to mix it up at closer range. For that smoky with added impact is better.

I am not one calling for a shaft nerf. But it it ludicrous to say it is a weak weapon. It has massive strengths and with that come a few weaknesses. That is how it has to be or else everyone would play Shaft.

Well yes, Shaft is definitely easy to get kills with.  But on the other hand it is much harder to capture points and flags with,  

The biggest thing to keep in mind is that Shaft is also easier to kill than Smoky.  Up in the high ranks good old "camping" is not a particularly strong strategy unless there is a strong team to keep enemies distracted, especially with the rise of Magnums and strikers that love to see that immobile target.

 

I think there is some sort of "gap" in Tanki's weapon servings- there is no "true" sniper.  Particularly since tanks are much harder to camouflage than humans, i.e. they can't hide in bushes or windows.  We need a return of the "nasty stealth sniper" with enormous room from upcurve and downcurve and no laser. RN in the game there is no gun that can patiently wait and then land that instantaneous shot.

 

Obviously with matchmaking that gun becomes niche and very specialized in its role, but that is the point of alterations anyways.

Edited November 20, 2017 by r_I_already_won0

[LittleWillie 3,199]

My only point is to refute the players who claim Shaft is now underpowered or as some say, "worthless". It is far from underpowered, Heck I didn't fully understand the thing until last week yet I was able to rack up the kills with it.  

 

As I posted before, "I am not one calling for a shaft nerf. But it it ludicrous to say it is a weak weapon. It has massive strengths and with that come a few weaknesses. That is how it has to be or else everyone would play Shaft."

 

 We need a return of the "nasty stealth sniper" with enormous room from upcurve and downcurve and no laser

 

I respectfully disagree. If you want to shoot with a chance to go unnoticed use Smoky.

Edited November 20, 2017 by LittleWillie

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

No they don't. They used to but that was removed some time ago.

 

Recent update took that away, but you have to be completely behind cover or another tank for it to be noticeable.

what! how could they!??!

[r_I_already_won0 2,339]

My only point is to refute the players who claim Shaft is now underpowered or as some say, "worthless". It is far from underpowered, Heck I didn't fully understand the thing until last week yet I was able to rack up the kills with it.  

 

As I posted before, "I am not one calling for a shaft nerf. But it it ludicrous to say it is a weak weapon. It has massive strengths and with that come a few weaknesses. That is how it has to be or else everyone would play Shaft."

 

I respectfully disagree. If you want to shoot with a chance to go unnoticed use Smoky.

Smoky can't reliably fire unnoticed from a distance- and it deals its damage in installments.

 

Of course Shaft isn't worthless- IMO is still the best weapon for pure kill count- but it is far from strong/overpowered.

 

what! how could they!??!

The above is a less extreme form of my reaction. :P

Edited November 20, 2017 by r_I_already_won0

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Smoky can't reliably fire unnoticed from a distance- and it deals its damage in installments.

 

Of course Shaft isn't worthless- IMO is still the best weapon for pure kill count- but it is far from strong/overpowered.

 

The above is a less extreme form of my reaction. :P

Smoky can fire unnoticed as well as a turrets needs to in TO. Just because once upon a time Shaft could one-hit  hapless victims with no laser does not mean there should be a turret like that in the game. There is already "too much" 1-hitting in TO. One hitting means the victim has no opportunity to do a damn thing other than die.

 

"Strong" is not the same as "overpowered". Shaft is strong. It can kill a tank with one shot. My Smoky might take 5, 6, 8 shots to kill that same hull. That is strong.

 

Removing penetration from fire and freeze  has not has much effect.  Almost every time there is a sliver of the sheltered tank exposed. If so the sheltered tank takes full damage.  

Edited November 20, 2017 by LittleWillie

[theo1900 0]

Many times playing with shaft, I found myself with no opportunity to do a damn thing other than die.

[D.A.R.K.N.E.S.S 432]

Many times playing with shaft, I found myself with no opportunity to do a damn thing other than die.

Perhaps thats because you are using m1 shaft with m1 wasp - the description of shaft even says to use it with heavy hulls.

 

Also, at captain you will be facing m2s the majority of the time and even highly MUed m2s and m3s - your equipment is underleveled, so its not surprising that you die often.

[GuidoFawkes 2,361]

Removing penetration from fire and freeze has not has much effect. Almost every time there is a sliver of the sheltered tank exposed. If so the sheltered tank takes full damage.

it does have effect if youre using the m1 alteration. when your cone angle got reduced by 70% the only way to damage multiple enemies was to damage them in a straight line. without penetration it would be impossible to damage someone hiding behind someone else with such a small cone angle. and if you have the m2 alteration for firebird it would be worse as you run out of ammo quicker so you'd have less time to go around the tank shield before you run out of ammo. the tank shield would also stay alive longer because the damage dealt initially is lower. firebird with both alterations or freeze with m1 alteration used to be able to manhandle entire isida armies, i doubt it'd be possible now.

[LittleWillie 3,199]

Many times playing with shaft, I found myself with no opportunity to do a damn thing other than die.

The he never been a 100% health tank killed by a (similar level) single Smoky shot. Never. Do please do not expect anyone to swallow that false equivalency. Please.

 

It might be possible to kill an m0 0/10 light hull with an m4 Smoky on DD with the m2 alteration equipped if a critical hit lands. Might, maybe, in that very narrow circumstance.; I am not going to spend time looking it up.

 

Yeah now that I have looked at your profile you have a huge number of m1 turrets and hulls. Plus have a couple of higher level. Your problem s self-inflicted. Even as a buyer you spread your your resources too thinly. No wonder you have problems.

Edited November 20, 2017 by LittleWillie

[LittleWillie 3,199]

it does have effect if youre using the m1 alteration. when your cone angle got reduced by 70% the only way to damage multiple enemies was to damage them in a straight line. without penetration it would be impossible to damage someone hiding behind someone else with such a small cone angle. and if you have the m2 alteration for firebird it would be worse as you run out of ammo quicker so you'd have less time to go around the tank shield before you run out of ammo. the tank shield would also stay alive longer because the damage dealt initially is lower. firebird with both alterations or freeze with m1 alteration used to be able to manhandle entire isida armies, i doubt it'd be possible now.

In the months of playing since this change has gone thorough I can count the times I escaped damage by screening on the fingers of one hand.

 

You did not even know this change had gone through so you must not have seen it in actual combat. Over a period of months, perhaps a full year.  I hardly ever see it work in actual combat.  So excuse me but I will take hundreds of hours play experience over a theoretical posting on the forum.

Edited November 20, 2017 by LittleWillie