Let's Discuss Hornet!

[Cleric 1,385]

Why on earth is this thing still not being nerfed. Let me demonstrate what's the problem. 

Let say we have a Hornet + Railgun combo, a classic combo. Then this dude is using Booster drone and Large calibre rounds augments for Railgun. Let's assume that everything is fully upgraded since those are the players who usually self-proclaimed as "pro" (Please, no one has position to claim himself as pro in a P2W game, easy to learn game).

Min. damage = 800 * (1 + 40%) * (2 + 2)  = 4480

Max. damage = 1600* (1 + 40%) * (2 + 2)  = 8960

 

BTW, fully upgraded heavy hulls have 4000 health. 

Also, Hornet's OD IGNORES ANY PROTECTION, including the spawn protection.

 

See the issue? This combo is able to one shot a heavy hull!!! What's the point of using heavy hulls then? Also, because Hornets still gain charge for its OD when it is active. Its OD comes back really quickly.

[Tidebreaker 1,669]

@Aegis you missed out on the passive 5% bonus that drones give.

Min. damage will actually be 800 * (1.4 * 4.2) = 4704

Max. damage will actually be 1600 * (1.4 * 4.2) = 9408.

It's clear to see that in any case, LCR is still too overpowered for its own good, even without the additional Booster damage to begin with and Hornet's Overdrive.

[AncientFire 1,894]

9 minutes ago, Tidebreaker said:

@Aegis you missed out on the passive 5% bonus that drones give.

Min. damage will actually be 800 * (1.4 * 4.2) = 4704

Max. damage will actually be 1600 * (1.4 * 4.2) = 9408.

It's clear to see that in any case, LCR is still too overpowered for its own good, even without the additional Booster damage to begin with and Hornet's Overdrive.

switch that railgun to magnum.. guess what? now you can kill someone without even having to give away your position to them.. unlike rail

ridiculous

[Okami 3,041]

10 hours ago, At_Shin said:

somehow still get to live to carry on their rampage

I know the answer to that question. A lot of Magnums carry high-level Griffin modules, usually from 40%-50%.

[cosmic666 1,055]

1 hour ago, GrayWolf8733 said:

I know the answer to that question. A lot of Magnums carry high-level Griffin modules, usually from 40%-50%.

Nope, they actually do not self damage when overdrive is activated.

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

6 minutes ago, cosmic666 said:

Nope, they actually do not self damage when overdrive is activated.

They do have self-damage. It's just that Magnum's splash damage distrubution is so bad that while they're nuking you, they're tickling themselves with the protection they have equipped. That makes Magm not bad for melee combat. The same can't be said for Gauss. 

[iWillHealYou 220]

1 hour ago, TheCongoSpider said:

They do have self-damage. It's just that Magnum's splash damage distrubution is so bad that while they're nuking you, they're tickling themselves with the protection they have equipped. That makes Magm not bad for melee combat. The same can't be said for Gauss. 

I've used Gauss most of my MM battles from a year and half, now I also use Magnum along with Gauss. Both turrets do significant amount of self dmg at close range and I've Owl at 31% and Griffin at 38% both prots reduce a noticeable amount of self dmg, but I would say Griffin takes the cake here.   
I've only MK5 Hornet and there are multiple occasions where I 1-shotted myself from self dmg (yes, no kidding) when I'm not using Griffin and when I'm using Griffin it's just a ticklish amount of self dmg. 

[Cleric 1,385]

@Thiedes Well at least you closed my topic instead of removing it completely. So the poll still works.

 

[Alsar 592]

@Aegis i personally cant find the reason for Hornet overdrive nerf. Every overdrive at every hull have been made for different reason and play style, hornet overdrive isnt like annoying or op like mammoth overdrive was when we had meteorites. I agree with the thing hornet without overdrive might need little buff but still if the balanced stay the same its still good hull.

[Venerable 2,967]

@Alsarbon 

11 minutes ago, Alsarbon said:

@Aegis personally cant find the reason for Hornet overdrive nerf. Every overdrive at every hull have been made for different reason and play style, hornet overdrive isnt like annoying or op like mammoth overdrive was when we had meteorites. I agree with the thing hornet without overdrive might need little buff but still if the balanced stay the same its still good hull.

Of course I respect your opinion, but there are many players that find Hornet's overdrive very annoying. They find it so annoying, that they do not distinguish between the hull and the overdrive. Just a word of advice: if you are defending Hornet OD, please do so in an elaborate and logical way. Otherwise you may be at the receiving end of vicious attacks by Hornet haters. (not really "vicious", lol. but it won't be pleasant... )

Personally I feel that the duration of Hornet OD is too long. It's meant to ignore all protection, but it shouldn't ignore spawn-protection. I realised this after being spawn-killed on the test server. Also, it shouldn't charge while it's active, as that increases the frequency of activating the overdrive in battle.

[Cleric 1,385]

4 minutes ago, Alsarbon said:

@Aegis i personally cant find the reason for Hornet overdrive nerf. Every overdrive at every hull have been made for different reason and play style, hornet overdrive isnt like annoying or op like mammoth overdrive was when we had meteorites. I agree with the thing hornet without overdrive might need little buff but still if the balanced stay the same its still good hull.

I believe you have not been updated for quite some time. Mammoth's OD no longer grant him invincibility. Besides, how often do you see a Mammoth with close range play style? If you are playing mid to long range turrets, then Mammoth's OD is unlikely to pose any threat to you.

 

Also, the main point of players said Hornet's OD is OP (and yes it is really annoying) because it ignores every single protection/damage reduction mechanics in the game, for a whopping 20 sec and Hornet is able to charge his OD while his OD is still active.

 

Protection/damage reduction mechanics includes

• Protection Module
• Titan's OD, i.e. the dome
• Double Armor
• Spawn Protection (I honestly think this is unintended, but the devs simply won't fix it)

And Hornet's OD ignores all of them.

[Viking4s 10,791]

10 hours ago, TheCongoSpider said:

They do have self-damage. It's just that Magnum's splash damage distrubution is so bad that while they're nuking you, they're tickling themselves with the protection they have equipped. That makes Magum not bad for melee combat. The same can't be said for Gauss. 

True, Magnum splash damage distribution is mirroring the splash damage for twins up to 5 meters (25% for twins and 30% damages), after 5 meters it goes slight down to 5% (at 20 meters). So very concentrated up to 5 meters, and then tikling up to 20 meters.

Distance	Damage
0-2m	100%
3-5m	100-30%
5-20m	30-5%

 

Gauss is Powerfull up to 12 meters (still 90% damages):

Distance	Damage
0-2m	100%
2-12m	100-90%
12-20m	90-5%

[Viking4s 10,791]

19 minutes ago, Aegis said:

I believe you have not been updated for quite some time. Mammoth's OD no longer grant him invincibility. Besides, how often do you see a Mammoth with close range play style? If you are playing mid to long range turrets, then Mammoth's OD is unlikely to pose any threat to you.

 

Also, the main point of players said Hornet's OD is OP (and yes it is really annoying) because it ignores every single protection/damage reduction mechanics in the game, for a whopping 20 sec and Hornet is able to charge his OD while his OD is still active.

 

Protection/damage reduction mechanics includes

• Protection Module
• Titan's OD, i.e. the dome
• Double Armor
• Spawn Protection (I honestly think this is unintended, but the devs simply won't fix it)

And Hornet's OD ignores all of them.

• Protection Module <= 13 turrets only 3 slots
• Titan's OD, i.e. the dome <= need to have an OD ready at the same time
• Double Armor <= that is the biggest gain for Hornet OD (especially if you face drug addict).
• Spawn Protection (I honestly think this is unintended, but the devs simply won't fix it) <= The spawn protection is a new feature (less than 6 months old) and definitely intended for OD to ignore as it a protection enhance his name (Spawn Protection). Hornet DO = no protection
• Also ignore protection from drones passive (all drones) and actives (defender)

The biggest loser is Titan OD and defensive drones.

[Cleric 1,385]

1 hour ago, Viking4s said:

• Spawn Protection (I honestly think this is unintended, but the devs simply won't fix it) <= The spawn protection is a new feature (less than 6 months old) and definitely intended for OD to ignore as it a protection enhance his name (Spawn Protection). Hornet DO = no protection

Are you freaking serious? Are you implying that the devs are encouraging players to use one single piece of equipment to spawn kill opponents, which is something all PVP games try their best to avoid? If that's the case, why on earth do we need spawn protection anyway, why such feature even exist, when the most popular piece of equipment in the entire game has the ability to ignore it.

 

Also, according to your logic, Double Armor does not contain the word "protection" , then why Hornet's OD is ignoring it? It must be a bug then. Same goes for the defender drone, since it basically just amplifying the effect of Double Armor.

 

If you think ignore protection is OK, then what about the exact opposite? Ignore damage? For 20s, you are completely invincible. Sounds familiar? That's Mammoth's original OD, which is considered as OP BTW.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Aegis

[Viking4s 10,791]

19 minutes ago, Aegis said:

Are you freaking serious? Are you implying that the devs are encouraging players to use one single piece of equipment to spawn kill opponents, which is something all PVP games try their best to avoid? If that's the case, why on earth do we need spawn protection anyway, why such feature even exist, when the most popular piece of equipment in the entire game has the ability to ignore it.

If you think ignore protection is OK, then what about the exact opposite? Ignore damage? For 20s, you are completely invincible. Sounds familiar? That's Mammoth's original OD, which is considered as OP BTW.

I can return the question to you: Are you freaking serious that you think it is a Developers bug, even after writing that it removes every protection and that spawn protection is a protection? An Overdrive giving special ability/privilege to one specific hull is the purpose of the OD, overriding spawn protection is a privilege, like Titasl provide 90% protection.

"why on earth do we need spawn protection anyway," If you ask me i can tell you we do not need "spawn protection" this is for cry babies and should be removed altogether (that would be an indirect nerf to Hornet OD btw).

I don't really understand where you want to go with "then what about the exact opposite?"  that is a different discussion. Invisibility of Mammoth and special protection of Titans was too much, have you not seen or experienced it during special GB events. So far I have not seen Hornet rushes during special GB event, did you?

[wolverine848 13,097]

2 hours ago, Alsarbon said:

@Aegis i personally cant find the reason for Hornet overdrive nerf. Every overdrive at every hull have been made for different reason and play style, hornet overdrive isnt like annoying or op like mammoth overdrive was when we had meteorites. I agree with the thing hornet without overdrive might need little buff but still if the balanced stay the same its still good hull.

Because you use it - more than 2x as much as any of your other hulls.

LOL - of course it is.

So mammoth OD needed a nerf solely because of the side-show of meteorites?  A minor part of the game?

Why on earth would the hull need a buff?  Excluding ODs it's perfectly fine.  I have two accounts and chose hornet as my light hull for both - certainly not because I thought it was weak.

[FrozenRailgun 1,771]

On 9/1/2020 at 5:05 AM, Aegis said:

Then this dude is using Booster drone and Large calibre rounds augments for Railgun. Let's assume that everything is fully upgraded since those are the players who usually self-proclaimed as "pro" (Please, no one has position to claim himself as pro in a P2W game, easy to learn game).

Min. damage = 800 * (1 + 40%) * (2 + 2)  = 4480

Max. damage = 1600* (1 + 40%) * (2 + 2)  = 8960

A short random not on topic math:

Similar case to my Hornet-Shaft with HC and 20/20 Brutus (I don't use the drone often though) for matchmaking.

Max sniping damage: 3,300 * 1.25 *1.1 = 4,537.5 damage which round it down to 4,537 damage. That guarantees OHKO heavy hulls (with Hornet OD) without even slapping a Double Power. But if we slap a DP, crank that number up to over 9,000 damage at the maximum (exact value is 9,075 damage). 

Ok let's try this again, but with Booster.

3300*1.25*4*1.05 = 17,325 max sniping damage. 

While Hornet OD + HC + DP + Booster gains severe advantage in term of damage, it does require to be sitting duck for some time. 

Looking at the example you made Aegis, a Railgun needs to have those four things to guarantee OHKO heavies while for a Shaft, you only need Hornet OD + HC themselves to get the job done (and a lot more cheaper). Even if we factor in Brutus (to increase the OHKO chance but not too high), while it is significantly more expensive, it is still cheaper than Booster! You are absolutely right about "claiming as a pro in a P2W game''.

[Cleric 1,385]

Since the released of overdrives, devs did quite a bit balance changes to them. Titan, Mammoth, Wasp, all receive their changes (I think I might miss some of them). Yet, there is one particular OD which a huge amount of players complain it is simply OPAF and is also one of the major reasons which make the hull extremely popular and yet, the devs simply WON'T FREAKING CHANGE IT.

Look around the game, near half of the player base main Hornet. When a piece of equipment is being heavily used for months or even years (Hornet is already extremely popular right in the beginning, and the freaking OD simply make it far worse), this clearly implies that it is not a temporary phenomenon, Hornet is simply too good.

 

The question is, why? Why Hornet is treated like it is the one true son of the devs while other hulls are all adopted. Is it because most of those "pros" and buyers are playing Hornets, nerfing it may indirectly affects your revenue?

Edited September 4, 2020 by Aegis

[TheCongoSpider 8,942]

45 minutes ago, Aegis said:

The question is, why? Why Hornet is treated like it is the one true son of the devs while other hulls are all adopted. Is it because most of those "pros" and buyers are playing Hornets, nerfing it may indirectly affects your revenue?

Maybe they were benefitting the most by having that stay strong the longest out of all. Or maybe it could just be that it was last on the list to be nerfed. It did receive a 33% decrease in the duration shortly after it was implemented. 

[Viking4s 10,791]

1 hour ago, TheCongoSpider said:

Maybe they were benefitting the most by having that stay strong the longest out of all. Or maybe it could just be that it was last on the list to be nerfed. It did receive a 33% decrease in the duration shortly after it was implemented. 

Maybe because it is a difficult one to balance. It is a support OD with a defensive and an offensive component. Supportive activity is hard to clearly define. I think the offensive (ignore protection) needs to be on part with its defensive part (radar, health), but in the hornet OD I think the offensive is perceived to be dominant. If you reduce even further the duration it would reduce even further the defensive part.

If rework, nerfing is required, it should be on the "ignore all defense" and replaced to a "greatly reduce defences", like Titans has 90% defence, the reduction of defence could be around 90%.

[Cleric 1,385]

4 hours ago, Viking4s said:

Maybe because it is a difficult one to balance. It is a support OD with a defensive and an offensive component. Supportive activity is hard to clearly define. I think the offensive (ignore protection) needs to be on part with its defensive part (radar, health), but in the hornet OD I think the offensive is perceived to be dominant. If you reduce even further the duration it would reduce even further the defensive part.

If rework, nerfing is required, it should be on the "ignore all defense" and replaced to a "greatly reduce defences", like Titans has 90% defence, the reduction of defence could be around 90%.

Let's be honest, Hornet's OD is essentially 2 ultimates combined. Have a look at Overwatch, a much more mature and successful game, Widowmaker has the exact same ultimate, minus the ignore defence part, and it has been there for nearly half of a decade.

The reveal enemies position and health bar part is completely fine, this is true. But the ignore all defence part is simply bad it is not like Wasp and Ares which you must get really close for the OD to be effective. Hornet's OD allows you to one shot everyone across the map. Yes, it is really common for Hornet, let's be honest, Hornet's OD is clearly designed for XP combo and it is also one of the most common Hornet combo in MM.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Spy
Kindly refrain from using inappropriate language.

[Cleric 1,385]

Hornet is not just OP, it is RIDICULOUSLY OP. See  nearly or even over half of the player base is using Hornet? Why? Because it is good, too good which players will simply choose it without even thinking, too good with too many "privileges" which some players take it for granted, too good which put all other hulls into shame.

Devs add hulls with different parameters to create diversity. Now, with the current state of Hornet, their beloved son, they are doing the exact opposite.

 

BTW, Hornet is so OP which even my Crisis drone, a game element which supposes to be P2W, is not able to keep up.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Aegis

[cosmic666 1,055]

Best way to tackle hornet players, go after them with relentless passion, especially at the beginning of a battle and keep going after them until the end of the battle. It's the best way to show your concern for this OP hull. Combine taking these players out with a win, and i guarantee complete satisfaction at the end of the battle. It's also lots of fun when they rage at you in battle. lol muppets.  

[Viking4s 10,791]

4 hours ago, Aegis said:

Let's be honest, Hornet's OD is essentially 2 ultimates combined. Have a look at Overwatch, a much more mature and successful game, Widowmaker has the exact same ultimate, minus the ignore defence part, and it has been there for nearly half of a decade.

[...]

Interesting to compare TO to a Game made by a company that has more than 5000 employes and a game that is not free-to-play.

"Widowmaker has the exact same ultimate, minus the ignore defence part" so it is the exact same but at the same time not the same, that makes a lot of sense.

Someone posted a table with xp gain versus hours played for each hull, and indeed Hornet came top 1, but is was closely followed by Hunter, I guess that Hornet is not the only one OP hull here. Hornet OD is indeed a natural born killer, and it offers less strategy/versatility than Hunter, which still good at making Xp (but less kill).  

Edited September 4, 2020 by Viking4s

[Cleric 1,385]

12 minutes ago, Viking4s said:

Interesting to compare TO to a Game made by a company that has more than 5000 employes and is not free to play.

Does the company size matters in terms of game balance? Like a company with 5k employees will come up with a different definition of "game balance"?

Also, even if Tanki has one single employee, it is safe to say that it is still a failure in terms of balancing Hornet. Considering, overdrives have been released for a year and the devs somehow failed to comment out some of the code? 

 

Also, we both know XP means nothing in TO. The more XP, the more suffering since your amount of crystals cannot keep up.

 

BTW,

Quote

"Widowmaker has the exact same ultimate, minus the ignore defence part" so it is the exact same but at the same time not the same, that makes a lot of sense.

Are you seriously gonna argue with something like this? Only a 6 yr kid would do something this childish. Have you ever seen I point out your spelling mistakes? No, of course, since it is so stupid.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Aegis