category Let's Discuss Game Balance

[yellowghetto 3,206]

The only thing that needs to be changed with EMP or AP Gauss is to remove the crit damage. The damage drop off from the attack is enough to balance the Augment.

 

A lot of these complaints are coming from almost as if Modules or EMP/AP Immunity don’t exist. You should be writing about nerfing Statuses at this point.

 

EMP/AP Gauss is meant for team wiping campers in bases as it is a sniper, there are multitudes of ways to stop these effects, such as certain Drones, Overdrives, Immunites or killing the player.

In general, idk why Gauss has x2 crit damage. It should be removed and be placed on Thunder.

[wolverine848 13,097]

According to WIKI gauss critical only happens on Arcade shots.

Or is the assumption based on Supercharge?

 

OR  is the WIKI wrong?

Edited January 31, 2022 by wolverine848

[Abellia 504]

2 hours ago, yellowghetto said:

A lot of these complaints are coming from almost as if Modules or EMP/AP Immunity don’t exist. You should be writing about nerfing Statuses at this point.

Ah yes I sure do love it when something is only balanced when it's against its respective module and immunity.

Stun Striker is just Missile Launcher "Hunter" against Stun Immunity, and MIssile Launcher "Hunter" is balanced therefore Stun Striker is balanced.

Please think before you post.

"Status augments have mechanical counters" and all that jazz - if you don't have the counter in your garage, you have no choice but to suffer. Hence, those counters should be counters, not mandatory to fight the augment.

Please think before you post.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Abellia

[LambSauce 1,884]

@Abellia Agreed. It’s no surprise these OP gimmicks aren’t permitted in esports matches. Yeah, esports battles - the epitome of balanced battles, or so I hear since I’m not an esports player.

On another note, I can see the alt accounts are out in full force today, reacting with ‘shrug’ to the exact same posts and comments. Unfortunate, but that’s what the forum has come to I guess.

 

[Abellia 504]

4 hours ago, Abellia said:

The most balanced legendary augments are the weakest ones (Stun Smoky, AP Magnum) and the most balanced garage augments are the strongest ones (Missile Launcher "Hunter", Adrenaline Firebird/Freeze/Tesla/Vulcan/Smoky, Cryo Smoky).

This should be the default standpoint for everyone who is chasing balance, considering that if you want to get everything as balanced as possible, the first thing you need to do is close gaps between legendary/status augments and garage augments. You can have your own aggregate goals that this is a part of, i.e. reducing general power levels in the game/increasing TTK, where the goal is to bring legendary augment ttk down to the level of garage augment ttk and then lower the average from there, but this should ultimately always be the first step for anyone who genuinely wants to see balance brought to the game.

If you want to take down my argument, you start here. Start with either why this isn't the case for balance (would you really want to claim that there is no gap, or that there is justa negligible one between the average garage and average legendary augment?), or start with why status Gausses are mediocre or weak relative to other status augments, and we should balance other augments down (but frankly, mostly up) to them. 

If you want to start anywhere else, be my guest, but don't be surprised if I don't take it seriously, because it is almost certainly not in the interest of balance, or refuse to acknowledge it entirely. For example:

3 hours ago, yellowghetto said:

The only thing that needs to be changed with EMP or AP Gauss is to remove the crit damage. The damage drop off from the attack is enough to balance the Augment.

This does not explain how status Gausses are close to the target balance - mediocre and/or weak status augments, and thus only need a small nerf. Also, it refuses to acknowledge the statistical superiority status Gausses have with the reduced reload being less than the damage decrease, on top of the Status.

I already deconstructed @yellowghetto's middle "point" in another post, so onto the next example:

Another example:

3 hours ago, yellowghetto said:

EMP/AP Gauss is meant for team wiping campers in bases as it is a sniper, there are multitudes of ways to stop these effects, such as certain Drones, Overdrives, Immunites or killing the player.

There is no arguable "meant to" if you do not have a target for balance in mind. Refer to the first post I quoted for what that target is for myself.

For the other contents of this post, refer to my most recent previous post for why balancing against the worst case scenario is blitheringly ignorant.

oh right also "yeah just kill the player" "just pop NEs against them so you always have overdrive up" "just use a drone (this one makes the least sense to me)" "just take immunity (explained)"
yeah okay

Edited February 1, 2022 by Abellia

[NikmanGT 4,362]

On 1/17/2022 at 4:21 AM, Yveltal9 said:

 

 

On 1/21/2022 at 7:40 AM, Abellia said:

 

 

On 1/24/2022 at 4:19 AM, Abellia said:

 

 

On 1/21/2022 at 6:25 AM, TheCongoSpider said:

 

 

On 1/17/2022 at 3:53 AM, artc said:

 

 

On 1/26/2022 at 12:28 AM, TheCongoSpider said:

 

Topic Merged

[The_Resistance 135]

There must be a mechanism to stop status-spamming. With Striker atleast you hit one target and rockets can be dodged. And only thing I can think of is Tesla reload mechanic. Yes, after Gauss overall nerf it is hard to kill without using normal mode, but still...

[alkyng 3,080]

The only augments that have ever passed EMP Gauss strength IMO are :- Old Stun Striker - Old Stun Railgun.  Other than that, I don't see. People who defend EMP Gauss in this topic, were also defending it when it had 20 whooped meter of EMP radius that applies 5s of EMP for anyone have ever crossed in the area, and 12m radius for 90% of its damage being done. Which was insane and indicate that the game was intentionally buffing it. Rather than the huge impact force it had that no one noticed it because you almostly died or had a worse thing (EMP)

[Abellia 504]

17 hours ago, The_Resistance said:

There must be a mechanism to stop status-spamming. With Striker atleast you hit one target and rockets can be dodged. And only thing I can think of is Tesla reload mechanic. Yes, after Gauss overall nerf it is hard to kill without using normal mode, but still...

Yes, you increase dependency on said status effects. Which is what I'm trying to do but people think broken augments are balanced somehow.

[BruhBruhThingThing 413]

23 hours ago, LambSauce said:

On another note, I can see the alt accounts are out in full force today, reacting with ‘shrug’ to the exact same posts and comments. Unfortunate, but that’s what the forum has come to I guess.

Could swore there was another person that said something like this. I don't remember who, but I honestly thought they were crazy at first. But maybe I was wrong in thinking that.

[Frylock 1,617]

1 hour ago, Abellia said:

Yes, you increase dependency on said status effects. Which is what I'm trying to do but people think broken augments are balanced somehow.

Hhhhh lemme tell you this and I am only going to say this once. As someone that pretty much owns almost every single status augments for all turrets, you can't really say which status augment is the most broken unless you have everything to compare in separate groups. There is also a ladder within status augments. So saying status gauss is the most broken is not entirely true. Sure people that don't have the augment may or will say its the most broken augment, but for someone else who has everything will say its not the most broken. 

But I will tell you that there are other status augments that do a way better job than status gauss. Stun striker, incendiary rounds for railgun, cryo twins, Jamming Hammer, EMP Rounds for Railgun, Emp Freeze, AP Freeze, and Jamming freeze. If I were to place them on a tier system for status augments, I would rate these augments in the A-S tier. Personally status gauss would be placed in the B+ tier. Look, I am not saying status gauss has to be stronger I am saying that there are better options to choose than status gauss. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by MysticBlood

[wolverine848 13,097]

14 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

Hhhhh lemme tell you this and I am only going to say this once. As someone that pretty much owns almost every single status augments for all turrets, you can't really say which status augment is the most broken unless you have everything to compare in separate groups. There is also a ladder within status augments. So saying status gauss is the most broken is not entirely true. Sure people that don't have the augment may or will say its the most broken augment, but for someone else who has everything will say its not the most broken. 

But I will tell you that there are other status augments that do a way better job than status gauss. Stun striker, incendiary rounds for railgun, cryo twins, Jamming Hammer, EMP Rounds for Railgun, Emp Freeze, and Jamming freeze. If I were to place them on a tier system for status effects I would rate these augments in the A-S tier. Personally status gauss would be placed in the B+ tier. Look, I am not saying status gauss has to be stronger I am saying that there are better options to choose than status gauss. 

You forgot AP freeze...

[Frylock 1,617]

11 minutes ago, wolverine848 said:

You forgot AP freeze...

Added it to the list seems like I forgot xD.

[Abellia 504]

  

47 minutes ago, MysticBlood said:

Hhhhh lemme tell you this and I am only going to say this once. As someone that pretty much owns almost every single status augments for all turrets, you can't really say which status augment is the most broken unless you have everything to compare in separate groups. There is also a ladder within status augments. So saying status gauss is the most broken is not entirely true. Sure people that don't have the augment may or will say its the most broken augment, but for someone else who has everything will say its not the most broken. 

But I will tell you that there are other status augments that do a way better job than status gauss. Stun striker, incendiary rounds for railgun, cryo twins, Jamming Hammer, EMP Rounds for Railgun, Emp Freeze, and Jamming freeze. If I were to place them on a tier system for status effects I would rate these augments in the A-S tier. Personally status gauss would be placed in the B+ tier. Look, I am not saying status gauss has to be stronger I am saying that there are better options to choose than status gauss. 

 

Dear god you are basically just posting things for me to tear apart.

Stun Striker – Stronger than EMP Gauss, debatable for much more effective

Incendiary Railgun – Incendiary Railgun has a double dependency as a result of the critical + heating, but it is, like all railguns, weakened as a result. I think Incendiary Railgun is potent, yes, but it falls short in terms of utility – it doesn’t compare to the 10 meter bogus radius of EMP Gauss, which isn’t even taking into account that EMP and AP are much stronger status than heating as they do not have real counterplay besides waiting them out, while heating has counterplay through waiting before you repair kit and the onus is on the heating player to continuously apply pressure – which Incendiary Railgun cannot do. I would place Incendiary Railgun just below EMP Gauss – on one of my alts which has both, they play comparatively at a mid-rank level, but Heating as a status just doesn’t scale as well going into the high ranks, as a result of the urgency to use a repair kit for heating damage decreasing to hull health going up.

Cryo Twins – it has a range limit, it applies its status cumulatively rather than instant capping out and then degradation like EMP/AP and so cannot apply its status effectively to groups. Also, it straightup kills slower than EMP Gauss does, and Cryo is barely an advantage over EMP when it comes to blocking enemy damage output – maybe you meant stun twins? Trying to call cryo twins stronger than status gausses is… comical, to say the least.

Jamming Hammer – It can debatably get comparable utility, it depends on who you’re fighting, but it has no chance in hell of comparing to status Gausses. It gives you constant mediocre utility against most players, and constant relevant utility against some players. However, it doesn’t significantly boost kill power against most players, compared to stock, and given that its effectiveness depends on your enemies using one of four drones (which can still be countered by augments with other status effects, except they work on the rest of the drones)…yeah no. This doesn’t beat a status Gauss.

EMP Railgun and Freeze – didn’t I literally call all EMP augments top tier somewhere in one of my recent posts? Either way, they aren't as effective status appliers or solo killers as EMP Gauss - Railgun doesn't apply EMP to groups as well, and because it doesn't have guaranteed 100% status uptime nor arcade shots to supplement its already strong status, it suffers in a solo scenario compared to EMP Gauss. All it has is a second dependency on criticals. They're close, but EMP Railgun is best used to force out a massive swap at the start of a match rather than being genuinely effective. EMP Freeze has a range limitation, I won't delve deeper than that.

Jamming Freeze – debatable, it needs a nerf as a result of its doubled dependency with no weakening, but it is currently only problematic because it effectively has no counters, not because it is obscenely strong.

Honestly? None of them do a better job than EMP Gauss, except for maybe Stun Striker - which is far more of a threat in a 1v1 and is much more effective at baiting out swaps, but lacks as much utility against a group, especially with its reduced stun radius.

Pointing fingers at a few legendary augments than you think are stronger than status Gausses doesn't mean that it is at the target balance level. You have to point fingers at literally all of them, and explain how they are less effective than status Gausses. Without that, at best it comes off as trying to defend a cancer ray and at worst it comes off as complaining that your cancer ray isn't the strongest. (Thankfully the former for you.)

Now, some food for thought for you: even if status Gausses are b tier, why don't they need a nerf? There are "d tier" legendary augments that compete with the garage options or only just beat them, and that is what we should be aiming to nerf them to - comparable to the garage options, with extra steps needed to counters them, and harder counters available as a result.

Think about this before you post again. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Abellia

[Abellia 504]

Oh also - arguing on anecdotes alone is no argument at all. I'm not going to elaborate on that beyond presenting you with the example of a certain forum member arguing Thunder to not be in need of a dire buff because of his beliefs that it was fine, despite only ever playing matches with it in optimum conditions. 

C'mon, Mystic, don't be that guy...

Edited February 2, 2022 by Abellia

[BruhBruhThingThing 413]

28 minutes ago, Abellia said:

Oh also - arguing on anecdotes alone is no argument at all. I'm not going to elaborate on that beyond presenting you with the example of a certain forum member arguing Thunder to not be in need of a dire buff because of his beliefs that it was fine, despite only ever playing matches with it in optimum conditions. 

C'mon, Mystic, don't be that guy...

I decided to reply to this post to tell you that if he's been defending EMP gauss like some of the forumers have claimed for a year and still is defending it. Then trying to reason with him is like talking to a brick wall. In other words, a complete waste of time for everyone who is involved (you, him, the mods that have to clean this mess up).

You're better off just agreeing to disagree rather than throwing jabs at each other. Don't be that guy who is too stubborn to quit.

Just my two cents of advice.

[Frylock 1,617]

6 minutes ago, BruhBruhThingThing said:

I decided to reply to this post to tell you that if he's been defending EMP gauss like some of the forumers have claimed for a year and still is defending it. Then trying to reason with him is like talking to a brick wall. In other words, a complete waste of time for everyone who is involved (you, him, the mods that have to clean this mess up).

You're better off just agreeing to disagree rather than throwing jabs at each other. Don't be that guy who is too stubborn to quit.

Just my two cents of advice.

And whats wrong with not giving up. I actually enjoy good solid arguments like this. I am not being jabbed in any way. The problem I don't like is people giving up too easily. I actually haven't had this much fun in a long while.

[Abellia 504]

50 minutes ago, BruhBruhThingThing said:

Then trying to reason with him is like talking to a brick wall

Well, hilariously, I don't think it is - Mystic is clearly putting thought into his arguments beyond anecdotes, (evidenced by Jamming Hammer, as even though it can be seen as an objectively middling status augment solo, it becomes top tier when utilized in a group, which he mentions), even if they aren't necessarily effective as a result of where they're targeted and contextualized. If I was making the argument to nerf status Gausses to be mid-tier within the lineup of legendary augments, I likely would have compromised on the smaller nerf that Mystic proposed (criticals removed). However, seeing as my argument is that the target for legendary augments to be close to where the worst ones currently are, there is not really a feasible argument to be made for status Gausses not needing a nerf.

50 minutes ago, BruhBruhThingThing said:

You're better off just agreeing to disagree rather than throwing jabs at each other. Don't be that guy who is too stubborn to quit.

I will always insult an ill founded argument. I will not always insult an incorrect player. As for being too stubborn to quit - why would you ever quit when you know you're correct? I am fully confident in my current belief that status Gausses are stronger than where the "worst legendary augments" (to most people, anyways) sit and my ability to argue that point, as well as that I will be able to provide a logical counterargument to anyone who claims to chase balance and simultaneously does not want to close the gap between garage and legendary augments.

[Abellia 504]

11 minutes ago, Abellia said:

I will always insult an ill founded argument.

@wolverine848 Unrelated, but I now recognize that claiming status rails as a good target to balance augments towards was pretty stupid if you want to go back to that post and tear that argument apart. 

[BruhBruhThingThing 413]

1 hour ago, MysticBlood said:

And whats wrong with not giving up. I actually enjoy good solid arguments like this. I am not being jabbed in any way. The problem I don't like is people giving up too easily. I actually haven't had this much fun in a long while.

 

16 minutes ago, Abellia said:

I will always insult an ill founded argument. I will not always insult an incorrect player. As for being too stubborn to quit - why would you ever quit when you know you're correct? I am fully confident in my current belief that status Gausses are stronger than where the "worst legendary augments" (to most people, anyways) sit and my ability to argue that point, as well as that I will be able to provide a logical counterargument to anyone who claims to chase balance and simultaneously does not want to close the gap between garage and legendary augments.

Personally, I don't like to drag out an argument since its a waste of my time, but that's me. You two can continue if you're liking it.

You guys would do well in politics or as lawyers.

Anyways gentlemen, resume with your great debate. Just be careful not to get too aggressive so that the mods wont have to clean it up.

[LambSauce 1,884]

5 hours ago, BruhBruhThingThing said:

 

Personally, I don't like to drag out an argument since its a waste of my time, but that's me. You two can continue if you're liking it.

You guys would do well in politics or as lawyers.

Anyways gentlemen, resume with your great debate. Just be careful not to get too aggressive so that the mods wont have to clean it up.

I disagree. That user is just downright trolling now. It’s arguing for the sake of arguing, even if their ‘argument’ is non-sensical and purely anecdotal at best. Mods used to give out warning points for that, but I guess they don’t really care.

[numericable 2,375]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:02 PM, Abellia said:

Yeah, EMP Gauss is "competitive" alright. Now, why is it banned from esports?

All Containers augments are banned from esport. Only crystals augments are allowed.

[LambSauce 1,884]

2 minutes ago, numericable said:

All Containers augments are banned from esport. Only crystals augments are allowed.

Exactly, because none of them are balanced. EMP Gauss is just one of the worst offenders.

[numericable 2,375]

Just now, LambSauce said:

Exactly, because none of them are balanced. EMP Gauss is just one of the worst offenders.

Not only because they are unbalanced but because we can't reach them easily without spending money, that means we can't have a good training with them, and the clan who will have the more money, would win as they would have train alot with those status augments.

[Abellia 504]

1 hour ago, numericable said:

Not only because they are unbalanced but because we can't reach them easily without spending money, that means we can't have a good training with them, and the clan who will have the more money, would win as they would have train alot with those status augments.

Also because it'd completely destroy the sanctity of the modes :P